[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV 

Steam! We were promised flying cars.

Touché

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Bigger infrastructure problem than electric. At least everyone has a 120v outlet.

I know...but the more I've read and learned about consumer fuel cell technology, the more excited I get about it. The industry has gotten too single-minded with gas-powered hybrids, which are only delaying the inevitable end of the fossil fuel era of humanity. There needs to be more investors and more motivation to get the infrastructure in place so that other areas of the US can pilot the car.

Washington, D.C. was actually next on Honda's list of locations - if they ever come here I'm pretty certain we'll be buying one.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

What annoys me the most about this whole situation, and how people perceive electric cars in general:

If you drive a petrol or diesel powered automobile flat out or very hard, you'll burn through gas like crazy. No one disputes this or complains about it. Even if you're driving a diesel Polo flat out on the Autobahn, it's gonna struggle to make 200 miles on a tank.

If you drive an electric car flat out, it uses battery quickly, and everyone freaks out.

Why?

No clue. I burned through 90% of a 85kW battery in ~90 miles, driving like a hooligan on meth, then nursed ~60 miles from the last 10. My wife can get >90 eMPG out of the thing, now, but I can't.

Oh, and: Test drive: DC to Boston in a Tesla Model S - Feb. 15, 2013

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Bottom line, part of the problem with electric cars is you just can't treat them like regular cars. Its certainly why I've always considered it sort of a dead-end (so long as we have to store the energy), and think hybrids are superior.

I think one of the things which will help it is ZipCars and the like. To me, this is the real automotive revolution. I think a lot less people are going to be owning cars in the nearish future.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think one of the things which will help it is ZipCars and the like. To me, this is the real automotive revolution. I think a lot less people are going to be owning cars in the nearish future.

Then you have to deal with "pick & rollers" and the like, that's bad enough with occasional rentals.

[subego]

I need the translation.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think one of the things which will help it is ZipCars and the like. To me, this is the real automotive revolution. I think a lot less people are going to be owning cars in the nearish future.

God... if we get anymore car share programs in Vancouver it's going to take up all of the parking.

I think Vancouver must be the world's car share capital, and I've tried many of them.

There's:

1. Car to Go
https://www.car2go.com
2. Zipcar
Car Sharing, an alternative to car rental and car ownership – Zipcar
3. Modo the Car Coop
home :: modo the car co-op :: carsharing in metro vancouver
4. Jack Bell Ride Share
https://online.ride-share.com/en/my/

And there have been others over the years that have come and gone. I used to be a member of a car sharing service called CityFlitz that charged $1 per hour. The vehicles were pasted in ads so it was ad supported. Ultimately, they failed: couldn't pay the bills. But it was a good idea.

Where Did CityFlitz Car Sharing Go?

Modo is the largest by far. They have over 280 cars across Vancouver.

[subego]

ZipCar has about 500 here.

My excitement I'm sure is helped by me being close to four locations.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by subego 

I need the translation.

Nose-pickers. I found a semi-fresh bogie on the steering wheel of a car I'd rented. Luckily I spotted it before I'd actually grabbed the wheel and cleaned it off with some tissues and sanitizer from my wife's purse. Ewww...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by subego 

ZipCar has about 500 here.

My excitement I'm sure is helped by me being close to four locations.

Show me where you got your data to support the claim that Zipcar has 500 cars in Chicago?

I was on the phone with them wanting to join and had actually asked about Chicago and Vancouver and the number of cars. They don't have the figure. An analysis of their map for Chicago reveals that they're showing at most 200 cars in Chicago but it's more likely mid-100s.

What other car sharing programs are there in Chicago besides Zipcar and I-GO Sharing (~175 cars in Chicago), if in fact you're referring to Chicago?

In Vancouver, between Modo and Car2Go, there are over 500 cars. This figure doesn't include Zipcar. Zipcar has over 100 cars in Vancouver to bring the total to 600 + cars in Van.

[subego]

Zipcar adds electric vehicles in Chicago, Chevrolet Volts - Chicago Tribune

"The Cambridge, Mass.-based company arrived in Chicago in 2006 and has 450 vehicles in more than 275 locations in the area."

[freudling]

Originally Posted by subego 

Zipcar adds electric vehicles in Chicago, Chevrolet Volts - Chicago Tribune

"The Cambridge, Mass.-based company arrived in Chicago in 2006 and has 450 vehicles in more than 275 locations in the area."

That's great but their map data for all available cars in Chicago is nowhere near 450. It's in the 100s.

That article is going on 1 year old...

Looks like Zipcar is struggling:

"...the Cambridge, Mass. company posted a loss of $14.1-million – equivalent to 49 cents a share, according to its IPO prospectus."

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-i...service=mobile

[subego]

I would presume the number covers the suburbs and fleet services.

[shifuimam]

Engadget put in their two cents a few days ago:

Tesla vs. The Times: What one review means for the future of auto news

This is a pretty interesting article. The author did a similar drive in a Model S for reviewing purposes, and his outcome was significantly different. I'd say that this gets us closer to the "truth in the middle" sort of perspective.

[The Final Dakar]

Problems With Precision and Judgment, but Not Integrity, in Tesla Test - NYTimes.com

“In his article (and follow-ups), Mr. Broder states that he followed Tesla’s advice during his drive. But, if he had taken time to read the owner’s manual beforehand (which, at 30-or-so well-written pages, would have taken an hour), he would have known about:

• “The ‘Max Range’ setting, which would have charged the battery beyond the ‘standard’ range and given him 20-30 miles more range;
• “The ‘Range Mode’ setting, which would have conserved battery during the drive;
• “The section entitled ‘Driving Tips for Maximum Range’;
• “And, the concept of plugging the vehicle in (especially during his overnight stop): ‘Tesla strongly recommends leaving Model S plugged in when not in use.’ and ‘The most important way to preserve the Battery is to LEAVE YOUR MODEL S PLUGGED IN when you’re not using it.’

“Had he employed at least one of these tidbits, he probably wouldn’t have been ‘stalled’ on the EV highway. But, then again, it wouldn’t be nearly as interesting a story if he made the trip successfully (and could have only complained about the inconveniences of staying at the charging station longer than he cared to or having to plug in the car overnight).

Did he use good judgment along the way? Not especially. In particular, decisions he made at a crucial juncture – when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight – were certainly instrumental in this saga’s high-drama ending.

In addition, Mr. Broder left himself open to valid criticism by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey, unaware that his every move was being monitored. A little red notebook in the front seat is no match for digitally recorded driving logs, which Mr. Musk has used, in the most damaging (and sometimes quite misleading) ways possible, as he defended his vehicle’s reputation.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

by taking what seem to be casual and imprecise notes along the journey... A little red notebook in the front seat is no match for digitally recorded driving logs

For me this should be enough to fire him, not for acting in bad faith or anything like that, for incompetence. If all he kept were imprecise notes then all he should have commented on were his impressions. They've been making tape records of various kinds for a very long time.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV 

For me this should be enough to fire him, not for acting in bad faith or anything like that, for incompetence. If all he kept were imprecise notes then all he should have commented on were his impressions. They've been making tape records of various kinds for a very long time.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

No we had one that looked more like this one

[The Final Dakar]

Lord, I forgot about those. Because they are not cool.

[Shaddim]

Broder was an idiot and Musk got pissed off over his incompetence, the end?

[BLAZE_MkIV]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Broder was an idiot and Musk got pissed off over his incompetence, the end?

Except one of them made their mistake in the NY Times. I don't think this half statement by the editor is good enough. I don't hold Musk to the same standards of behavior on his blog/twitter as I do a journalist.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV 

Except one of them made their mistake in the NY Times. I don't think this half statement by the editor is good enough. I don't hold Musk to the same standards of behavior on his blog/twitter as I do a journalist.

I wasn't disagreeing, my opinion is essentially the same.

[Laminar]

My biggest issue with this is that everyone keeps trying to make today's electric car something it's not; a long-range vehicle. Top Gear tested the Leaf and the Peugeot Ion and they immediate went on a 100+ mile trip. Broder decides to make a multi-day coastal trip. That's not what today's electric cars do well.

If I drive from home to drop the kid off, to work, back home for lunch, out for groceries, pick the kid up, run an errand or two, then back home I've done 20 miles. My wife's car is much nicer than mine so whenever we're riding together or taking long trips we take hers. My car averages 4500 miles per year. An electric car would be perfect for me. My utility requirements don't allow me to walk, bicycle, or motorbike (anymore), but even if I go across town on the odd errand it still only going to be 60 miles round trip.

The electric car is a perfect second car for a whole lot of people in similar situations, and I find it irritating when people think the 100 (or even 270 mile...) range is some sort of terrible dealbreaker. The average car trip length is 10 miles, the average trip to work is 13 miles (source). An electric car makes an excellent second car today.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

My biggest issue with this is that everyone keeps trying to make today's electric car something it's not; a long-range vehicle. Top Gear tested the Leaf and the Peugeot Ion and they immediate went on a 100+ mile trip. Broder decides to make a multi-day coastal trip. That's not what today's electric cars do well.

If I drive from home to drop the kid off, to work, back home for lunch, out for groceries, pick the kid up, run an errand or two, then back home I've done 20 miles. My wife's car is much nicer than mine so whenever we're riding together or taking long trips we take hers. My car averages 4500 miles per year. An electric car would be perfect for me. My utility requirements don't allow me to walk, bicycle, or motorbike (anymore), but even if I go across town on the odd errand it still only going to be 60 miles round trip.

The electric car is a perfect second car for a whole lot of people in similar situations, and I find it irritating when people think the 100 (or even 270 mile...) range is some sort of terrible dealbreaker. The average car trip length is 10 miles, the average trip to work is 13 miles (source). An electric car makes an excellent second car today.

On the one hand, I totally agree with you that this whole thing is being looked at the wrong way. Electric vehicles are not good long range vehicles and appeal to a subset of people right now for that reason. City dweller who doesn't drive long distance? Then you're in the target market. Yet, the New York Times and everyone else does these on long range experiments. Why? Why do they all do the same thing? It seems absurd. It's like a straw man. Some self-defeating thing. Is there any review out there that's like 1 or 2 weeks of a commuter living with it day-to-day? That's way more realistic.

By the way, it's not just the limitations of electric vehicles, it's the lack of infrastructure: charging stations. If there were zillions of charging stations it'd be a lot better long range...

Having said all of this, average distances driven daily for Americans says nothing really. That's because of how variable people's driving habits are. It doesn't tell us much about our target market to say that the average person drives 13 miles in a day. We need to see the distribution of this.

And how many times does the person who actually hits the 13 mile a day average do long distance drives on weekends? 5 times a year? 10 times a year? How many people actually hit the average? How many long distancers are there? In other words, we need way more granular detail.

What these tests show, which is good, is that, if you don't follow religiously a set of firm instructions on where and how to drive the car, you could not reach your destination and need a tow. For all of these reasons, electric vehicles still remain a niche car that do not appeal to the broad market because of their range limitations and lack of infrastructure, even if the "average driver" should have enough range to drive one for a week straight and not fill it up. It doesn't cover what's in the consumer's minds of wanting to take long trips on some weekends throughout the year, or alleviate any range anxiety because of lack of infrastructure.

Way too many variables with consumers in terms of driving habits to go off of averages.

[Doc HM]

Seems unfair to label charging instructions for an electric car as rigid and as having to follow them "religiously" The same applies to my petrol car. If I set out on a journey with insufficient fuel, I don't reach the destination. And yes, I have pushed it, and failed and yes you do feel like a total idiot sat on the hard shoulder waiting for fuel. It's just that our daily car habits don't feel like behaviour because we do them all automatically.

Electric cars today are in a similar place to petrol cars in the 20's, with the necessary infrastructure still in development. Cars in the 20's were slow, had low milage and were unreliable. At least electric cars are reliable, and fast so that's twice as better (?) as petrol cars initially were.. While still mostly in the hands of early adopters they are certainly suitable for more people than use them, right now. The motoring press does seem to want to paint them into a corner, what with the NYT and Top Gear (first).

[subego]

For any of those who haven't run out of gas, here's what happens: the engine just stops.

That may be obvious, but the one time it happened to me I expected something more climactic. Alarm bells or something. It just stops.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

smh

[subego]

It was a favor for a friend. Either they were late for work or I take the risk I could get to the gas station. I made it to within two blocks, so it totaled about a 10 minute ordeal.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

My biggest issue with this is that everyone keeps trying to make today's electric car something it's not; a long-range vehicle.

For the more cynical among us, this perfectly encapsulates the average persons mindset. Rather accept the car for what it can do, and use it properly, they just completely shun or misuse it.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Is there any review out there that's like 1 or 2 weeks of a commuter living with it day-to-day? That's way more realistic.

Here's something kind of like that with a Volt. Keep off the accelerator, charge it at night, and keep your trips in the all-electric range and the car registers 3,108 mpg.