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The Black Vote, Conservative Myths, and "Free Stuff" (Page 2)
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besson3c
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Mar 22, 2016, 09:21 AM
 
I've been thinking about Chongo's explanation of how safety nets are not Christian because they are a form of theft (to very crudely paraphrase) and I have to say that I find this perspective completely demented.

For one, if left to our own vices we might be charitable with those in our own community we have direct contact with, but at the national level and in isolated communities this only has an abstract effect on the givers. There is also little chance, IMO, that our voluntary charity would be sufficient to cover what public education, health care, etc. covers today. I don't find this attitude Christian at all, it is just poor rationalization of political ideology.

Essentially the safety nets make it illegal to not do the moral thing by evading taxes, at least this is one way to look at this. Why doesn't this concept and table turning argument resonate with the Christian Right?
     
besson3c
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Mar 22, 2016, 09:22 AM
 
I've been thinking about Chongo's explanation of how safety nets are not Christian because they are a form of theft (to very crudely paraphrase) and I have to say that I find this perspective completely demented.

For one, if left to our own vices we might be charitable with those in our own community we have direct contact with, but at the national level and in isolated communities this only has an abstract effect on the givers. There is also little chance, IMO, that our voluntary charity would be sufficient to cover what public education, health care, etc. covers today. I don't find this attitude Christian at all, it is just poor rationalization of political ideology.

Essentially the safety nets make it illegal to not do the moral thing by evading taxes, at least this is one way to look at this. Why doesn't this concept and table turning argument resonate with the Christian Right?
     
Chongo
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Mar 22, 2016, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I've been thinking about Chongo's explanation of how safety nets are not Christian because they are a form of theft (to very crudely paraphrase) and I have to say that I find this perspective completely demented.

For one, if left to our own vices we might be charitable with those in our own community we have direct contact with, but at the national level and in isolated communities this only has an abstract effect on the givers. There is also little chance, IMO, that our voluntary charity would be sufficient to cover what public education, health care, etc. covers today. I don't find this attitude Christian at all, it is just poor rationalization of political ideology.

Essentially the safety nets make it illegal to not do the moral thing by evading taxes, at least this is one way to look at this. Why doesn't this concept and table turning argument resonate with the Christian Right?
Remeber this book? The author grew up in a self described "bleeding heart liberal' home.



Safety nets in of themselves are not " not Christian" The Catholic Church is the largest provider of such services on the planet.
Safety nets are not Christian when they violate the principal of subsidiarity. They are not Christian when they seek to supplant existing local charities that are doing already doing the job. They are not Christian when they require recipients of funds to violate tenets of their faith in order to continuing receiving funds. Here's one example.
HHS Ends Contract With Church Program for Trafficking Victims, Stressing Need for Contraception | Daily News | NCRegister.com
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besson3c
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Mar 22, 2016, 02:13 PM
 
Why is the solution then to replace safety nets with a fleeting hope that society will be better served without them? This is a drastic overcompensation. Why not simply find effective ways for charity to work jointly with government, or at least in specific areas where some independence can be allowed?

Maybe this sounds overly idealistic given today's political climate, but torching all safety nets and hoping that we'll be the better for this without an actionable alternative sure doesn't seem Christian to me at all.
     
BadKosh
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Mar 22, 2016, 02:30 PM
 
Some of the slackers will find jobs when the gravy train stops.
     
besson3c
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Mar 23, 2016, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's like with children. If you give in when they're screaming, they'll learn that screaming gets them what they want.
Are you for real? Comparing black people to children because they have the odacity to complain about cops beating the shit out of them for often very dubious reasons?

Diplomacy is clearly not your strong suit.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 23, 2016, 04:36 PM
 
because they have the odacity to complain about cops beating the shit out of them
Complaints and protests, okay. Riots and arson, not okay. They're essentially large scale tantrums, and we as a society simply let it happen.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 23, 2016, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Complaints and protests, okay. Riots and arson, not okay. They're essentially large scale tantrums, and we as a society simply let it happen.
Seems fair considering we let the police mistreat them for so long because it didn't affect us. But now that they're so upset it affects the people around them they're being scolded about their behavior. While the perpetrators of their unrest are given a slap on the wrist at best.
     
BadKosh
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Mar 23, 2016, 05:34 PM
 
Police tactics didn't evolve in a vacuum. They were in response to more militant attitudes from the various communities/cities they patrolled.
     
besson3c
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Mar 23, 2016, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Seems fair considering we let the police mistreat them for so long because it didn't affect us. But now that they're so upset it affects the people around them they're being scolded about their behavior. While the perpetrators of their unrest are given a slap on the wrist at best.
Exactly. This mistreatment has been going on for decades. These riots are not a result of protest to something new. This is more of an act of desperation because nothing else has brought about change.

Is it right? Of course not, many of the people doing it would say that in a vacuum it isn't right, but some of them would say it is necessary. Regardless of whether or not CTP agrees, it's quite unfair for him to just brush the whole thing off by comparing them to children.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 24, 2016, 05:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Exactly. This mistreatment has been going on for decades. These riots are not a result of protest to something new. This is more of an act of desperation because nothing else has brought about change.

Is it right? Of course not, many of the people doing it would say that in a vacuum it isn't right, but some of them would say it is necessary. Regardless of whether or not CTP agrees, it's quite unfair for him to just brush the whole thing off by comparing them to children.
That's the second time in this thread you've put words in my mouth. Are you for real? Does that behavior help promote meaningful dialogue?

What I find interesting is that the cops they're protesting are controlled by the administrations they've been electing, the vast majority of these incidents are in very large Blue cities.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Chongo
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Mar 24, 2016, 10:02 AM
 
Americans of Latino ancestry have mistreated by police for decades as well, still not burning down the barrio.
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besson3c
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Mar 24, 2016, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Americans of Latino ancestry have mistreated by police for decades as well, still not burning down the barrio.

Where is your Christian empathy?

Latino, black, protesting or not, however this manifests you don't seem terribly concerned with the issue of police making poor judgement? I may have seen concern with the well-being of the police from you or CTP, but what about the other side?

I'm also still not terribly convinced that there is empathy with your policies surrounding safety nets, you haven't fully addressed this (not that you have to).

Since so many of your answers and beliefs seem to come back to your Catholicism that you choose to share, I hope you don't take offence to these beliefs being challenged. I don't happen to think that we should wear kid gloves when looking at any religious belief.

Also, why aren't Catholic leaders Dear Leader?
     
Chongo
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Mar 24, 2016, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Where is your Christian empathy?

Latino, black, protesting or not, however this manifests you don't seem terribly concerned with the issue of police making poor judgement? I may have seen concern with the well-being of the police from you or CTP, but what about the other side?

I'm also still not terribly convinced that there is empathy with your policies surrounding safety nets, you haven't fully addressed this (not that you have to).

Since so many of your answers and beliefs seem to come back to your Catholicism that you choose to share, I hope you don't take offence to these beliefs being challenged. I don't happen to think that we should wear kid gloves when looking at any religious belief.

Also, why aren't Catholic leaders Dear Leader?
My empathy is doing fine. I'm collecting donations for 1st Way Pregnancy Support Center - Phoenix, AZ if you'd like to help. You have until Divine Mecy Sunday to send a check.
Catholic Charities National office

https://catholiccharitiesusa.org

Our local office

https://www.catholiccharitiesaz.org

USCCB speak out.
June of 2015
USCCB President Delivers Statement on Race Relations at General Assembly

Here we are in St. Louis where, in 1947, Cardinal Joseph Ritter, who died 48 years ago today, integrated Catholic schools well before the 1954 Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education. It shows that the Catholic Church can be at the forefront of promoting justice in racial tensions. It is time for us to do it again. I suggest five concrete ways in which the Catholic community can commit to ending racism and promoting peace, justice and respect for all persons:

1.Pray for peace and healing among all people.

2.Study the Word of God and the social teaching of the Church in order to gain a deeper appreciation of the dignity of all persons.

3.Make a sincere effort to encounter more fully people of different racial backgrounds with whom we live, work and minister.

4.Pursue ways in which Catholic parishes and neighborhoods can be truly welcoming of families of different racial and religious backgrounds.

5.Get to know our local law enforcement officers. Let them know of our support and gratitude. And encourage young people to respect all legitimate authority.

Sadly, the present racial tension in the United States is not something new. It is the most recent manifestation of a relationship as old as the history of our nation, one marred by the tragedy of human slavery. Promoting peace and reconciliation is the only way forward. And we must constantly strive to achieve these goals, trusting in the Lord to lead and guide us, accompanied by his merciful love. May He help all of us to recognize the dignity inherent in every human being, for God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, after our likeness."
Responsibility, Rehabilitation, and Restoration: A Catholic Perspective on Crime and Criminal Justice
Confronting a Culture of Violence: A Catholic Framework for Action
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besson3c
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Mar 24, 2016, 12:18 PM
 
So, how about my questions?

It's great that you donate to stuff. Is that your way to justify your other beliefs that I'm challenging?
     
Chongo
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Mar 24, 2016, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, how about my questions?

It's great that you donate to stuff. Is that your way to justify your other beliefs that I'm challenging?
What beliefs are those?
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besson3c
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Mar 24, 2016, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What beliefs are those?
Where is your Christian empathy?

Latino, black, protesting or not, however this manifests you don't seem terribly concerned with the issue of police making poor judgement? I may have seen concern with the well-being of the police from you or CTP, but what about the other side?

I'm also still not terribly convinced that there is empathy with your policies surrounding safety nets, you haven't fully addressed this (not that you have to).

Since so many of your answers and beliefs seem to come back to your Catholicism that you choose to share, I hope you don't take offence to these beliefs being challenged. I don't happen to think that we should wear kid gloves when looking at any religious belief.

Also, why aren't Catholic leaders Dear Leader?
     
Chongo
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Mar 24, 2016, 02:00 PM
 
Also, why aren't Catholic leaders Dear Leader?
Catholic Study Bible

Matthew 20:25-28

25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave;
28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Any cop that violates the law needs to be thrown in prison.
I already answered the rest.

Who do support, the Little Sisters of the Poor or the Feds in their fight over the HHS mandate?

BTW, You are most likely unaware we are in the Jubilee Year of Mercy.
Jubilee of Mercy - Home
( Last edited by Chongo; Mar 24, 2016 at 02:51 PM. )
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Laminar
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Mar 24, 2016, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Still trolling and immature name calling?
     
OAW  (op)
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Mar 24, 2016, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Americans of Latino ancestry have mistreated by police for decades as well, still not burning down the barrio.
I've been on spring break vacation with the family so I haven't been following the board for the last week or so but I will comment briefly on this. The riots that went down in the aftermath of police brutality situations or the assanitation of MLK never really resulted in "black neighborhoods" being burned down. By that I mean residential areas. The so-called commercial areas were targeted. And the vast majority of the businesses in those areas were not black owned. In fact, the record shows that in most instances those businesses that identified themselves as black owned were generally spared. I'm not condoning the violence at all. I'm just saying that it was never as wanton and mindless as some would like to portray. IOW ... while the area took a big economic hit ... it wasn't just the people who lived there that bore it.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 24, 2016 at 07:21 PM. )
     
OAW  (op)
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Mar 24, 2016, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's the second time in this thread you've put words in my mouth. Are you for real? Does that behavior help promote meaningful dialogue?

What I find interesting is that the cops they're protesting are controlled by the administrations they've been electing, the vast majority of these incidents are in very large Blue cities.
You continue to demonstrate your deep-seated cluelessness on such matters. Perhaps it's because you live in the sticks and you simply aren't up on the politics of major metropolitan areas. But the reality is that on the local level "black Democrats" and "white Democrats" are essentially two different parties. The GOP is practically non-existent is such areas. And even if they were a political force to be reckoned with ... given their track record they would certainly be worse. I could include several different references in this post backing this up. But true to form you will just say I'm "distorting" things and "cherry-picking" data. So I won't even bother. I'll simply leave you in your comfort zone of willful ignorance.

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 24, 2016, 08:46 PM
 
Regretfully, the administration here has asked me to stop replying to your flamebait, you'll just have to sit in your reality distortion field and play with yourself.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Mar 25, 2016, 01:25 PM
 
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 25, 2016, 02:11 PM
 
*shrug* It's out of my hands, take it up with the members complaining about arguments in the PWL.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
besson3c
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Mar 26, 2016, 12:41 PM
 
CTP, would you let OAW join your militia if he really wanted to be a member?
     
 
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