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lil'babykitten · Sep 6, 2006, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

This thread has far outlived its usefulness. You richly deserve your name, Troll. The only person on your side around here that I have any common ground for discourse with is Taliesin.

In other words, you've lost the argument.

Shaddim · Sep 6, 2006, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

In other words, you've lost the argument.

No, in other words, he got tired of the "Muslim Gangbang Squad". A group of worthless sods who have nothing else to do but fabricate whatever bullsh*t they can to forward the Jihad.

This is one reason I don't post as much in the PL, it's a daily chore in "Whack-a-mole" that gets tiring after a few months.

TETENAL · Sep 6, 2006, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

No, in other words, he got tired of the "Muslim Gangbang Squad".

Were the Geneva Conventions written by a "Muslim Gangbang Squad" too?

Article 49

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

[…]

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Big Mac's population transfer would be illegal.

vmarks · Sep 6, 2006, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Taliesin

If Vmarks is right, then Israel has to annex the Westbank and Gaza and give out israeli citizenship to all the people living there.

Taliesin

I wouldn't have a problem with this if the newly minted citizens would be peaceful. Many Israeli Arabs in east Jerusalem are quite content being Israelis. Haifa has a large Arab Israeli population. (Yes, I use the word order interchangeably.) It certainly would do a better job of ending the 'refugee' problem than the UNRWA ever did. Of course, Troll would complain incessantly about a violation of UN 242, but that would be a nonsense complaint. (Egypt and Jordan have both turned down opportunities to take Gaza and the West Bank back, Israel offered as 242 sets forth.)

But if the hypothetical newly minted citizens continued their pre-citizenship violent murderous activities, I believe Israel would be justified in disarming and disabling what amounts to an armed rebellion within its borders challenging its authority.

After all, that's what the UN asked Lebanon to do to HizbAllah, disarm and disband it.

Troll · Sep 7, 2006, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

A group of worthless sods who have nothing else to do but fabricate whatever bullsh*t they can to forward the Jihad.

I just want to clarify that you are now getting behind the ideas propounded here by BigMac.

1) Do you too believe that Israel is entitled to all of the territory that he says God promised to the Jews?
2) Do you too believe that the root of the problem is Israelis' lack of faith?
3) Do you too believe that the Palestinians should never have their own state?
4) Do you too believe that the West Bank and Gaza are not occupied territories under the terms of the Geneva Conventions?

If you could clarify that for me, it'll be easier for us to work out whether we're on planes that communicate.

Taliesin · Sep 7, 2006, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by vmarks

I wouldn't have a problem with this if the newly minted citizens would be peaceful. Many Israeli Arabs in east Jerusalem are quite content being Israelis. Haifa has a large Arab Israeli population. (Yes, I use the word order interchangeably.) It certainly would do a better job of ending the 'refugee' problem than the UNRWA ever did. Of course, Troll would complain incessantly about a violation of UN 242, but that would be a nonsense complaint. (Egypt and Jordan have both turned down opportunities to take Gaza and the West Bank back, Israel offered as 242 sets forth.)

But if the hypothetical newly minted citizens continued their pre-citizenship violent murderous activities, I believe Israel would be justified in disarming and disabling what amounts to an armed rebellion within its borders challenging its authority.

After all, that's what the UN asked Lebanon to do to HizbAllah, disarm and disband it.

Finally we have something we can agree upon. I actually think that would be the most ideal solution to the problem and should have been done right away in 1967: Full annexation and full israeli citizenship for all palestinians. Unfortunately between then and now lie more than three decades of murderous occupation and oppression, which have instilled a national identity among the palestinians as well as supiscion and hatred towards the occupier/oppressor, which would make that unified peace-solution difficult right now.

So I prefer a true two-state-solution as a sort of confidence-development, and maybe in a few centuries the idea of unification can be revisited, when hopefully peace and economic interchanges between Israel and Palestine have created a much more normalised atmosphere between the two people.

Taliesin

Taliesin · Sep 7, 2006, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

No, in other words, he got tired of the "Muslim Gangbang Squad". A group of worthless sods who have nothing else to do but fabricate whatever bullsh*t they can to forward the Jihad.

No, he got tired of Troll, and Troll is as far as I can see not a muslim, but an atheist. And as far as I can further see, his arguments are dead-on:

1. It's internationally illegal to conquer and annex territories, regardless if in a defensive or offensive war.

2. The territories that Israel currently occupies are not "disputed territories" like Israel refers to them but illegaly occupied territories with a distinct (at least as distinct as the israelis) people kept from their selfdetermination, and for decades mistreated and oppressed.

3. Criticizing Israel does not necessarily amount to anti-semitism, it can even be an act of love towards Israel with the goal of preventing Israel to make mistakes or to correct mistakes that are harming it itself.

4. The same international law that legitimised and recognized Israel's existence, equally legitimised and recognized at the same time a palestinian state alongside Israel, and repeated that will time and again throughout the last decades.

Taliesin

Shaddim · Sep 7, 2006, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Troll

I just want to clarify that you are now getting behind the ideas propounded here by BigMac.

1) Do you too believe that Israel is entitled to all of the territory that he says God promised to the Jews?
2) Do you too believe that the root of the problem is Israelis' lack of faith?
3) Do you too believe that the Palestinians should never have their own state?
4) Do you too believe that the West Bank and Gaza are not occupied territories under the terms of the Geneva Conventions?

1. Yes.

2. No, it's their lack of execution. They should have been more aggressive and told the UN, et al, to suck a nut.

3. They have their own states, they can go back to the countries they came from. OR, they can abide by Israeli law, which is far better than what they can hope for in an Islamic country.

4. No, they're Israeli property.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

1. Yes.

And where are the borders of that country?

3. They have their own states, they can go back to the countries they came from. OR, they can abide by Israeli law, which is far better than what they can hope for in an Islamic country.

How about every European, Russian, American, Southern American, African and Middle Easterner who cannot prove his own family lived in the area before 1900 gets the fekk out and lets the people who lived on the land decide what to do?

Nah, proposing an ethnic cleansing (as long as the victims are Muslims) is more important in US politics right now.

Shaddim · Sep 7, 2006, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

And where are the borders of that country?

How about every European, Russian, American, Southern American, African and Middle Easterner who cannot prove his own family lived in the area before 1900 gets the fekk out and lets the people who lived on the land decide what to do?

Nah, proposing an ethnic cleansing (as long as the victims are Muslims) is more important in US politics right now.

The present borders are just fine (including Gaza and the WB), and if the occupying Arabs can't be peaceful, or at least civil, Israel needs to start destroying entire cities to prove their point.

How about the Arabs who ran there from other countries, go the f@ck home and leave Israel in peace?

Is it ethnic cleansing to kill all the militant Muslims in the area? Dunno, but it sounds like a great plan. At any rate, I don't care what you call it, your argument doesn't mean sh@t to me.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

The present borders are just fine (including Gaza and the WB), and if the occupying Arabs can't be peaceful, or at least civil, Israel needs to start destroying entire cities to prove their point.

The Arabs are occupying it?

How about the Arabs in the area go the f@ck home and leave Israel in peace?

They would but unfortunately the UN created the illegal state of Israel on their land. So it's kind of difficult. But I agree. They should be allowed to go home.

Is it ethnic cleansing to kill all the militant Muslims in the area? Dunno, but it sounds like a great plan. At any rate, I don't care what you call it, your argument doesn't mean sh@t to me.

No it isn't. But since you consider all Muslims militants, terrorists or supporters of terrorism (unless they are the puppets of the US) what you are proposing is ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Awwwwwwww, I thought you really valued my input here on MacNN.

Shaddim · Sep 7, 2006, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

The Arabs are occupying it?

They would but unfortunately the UN created the illegal state of Israel on their land. So it's kind of difficult. But I agree. They should be allowed to go home.

No it isn't. But since you consider all Muslims militants, terrorists or supporters of terrorism (unless they are the puppets of the US) what you are proposing is ethnic cleansing and genocide.

Awwwwwwww, I thought you really valued my input here on MacNN.

See boys and girls, this di@khead just wants to twist what you say, so there can't be discussion on this topic. It's all very typical of he and Trollbait.

Give up talking with them, it's a waste of your time.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

See boys and girls, this di@khead just wants to twist what you say, so there can't be discussion on this topic. It's all very typical of he and Trollbait.

Give up talking with them, it's a waste of your time.

Twist what?

You said the Arabs should move out of the occupied territories.

Originally Posted by Troll

Do you too believe that the Palestinians should never have their own state?

Originally Posted by MacNStein

3. They have their own states, they can go back to the countries they came from.

I called that ethnic cleansing. You start switching over to "killing militants".

It's not my problem you can't follow your own arguments through. But do continue with the personal attacks. I guess that's the only thing you have left.

lil'babykitten · Sep 7, 2006, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Is it ethnic cleansing to kill all the militant Muslims in the area? Dunno, but it sounds like a great plan.

Who are the "militant" Muslims? How do you ensure you kill "all" of them? Furthermore how do you ensure you don't kill innocents - or if that happened would you just attempt to shed moral responsibility by labelling such casualties "collateral damage"?

Sounds like a shitty plan to me.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Who are the "militant" Muslims? How do you ensure you kill "all" of them? Furthermore how do you ensure you don't kill innocents - or if that happened would you just attempt to shed moral responsibility by labelling such casualties "collateral damage"?

Sounds like a shitty plan to me.

Aw c'mon! The Zionists and their supporters need to have some lebensraum as well as find some kind of endlösung der Arabenfrage.

Hawkeye_a · Sep 7, 2006, 10:38 AM

Muslims will never take over Jerusalem. The day that happens, they can kiss Mecca and Media goodbye. Take your pick.

Temples...and Mosques.... good lord....you Muslim-appologists are just way too much. Did you ever study a course in history that didnt involve research on the interweb ?.... ill dumb it down...

1. Jeudaism existed before Christianity, which existed before Islam.
2. Synagogues and Temples were built in Jerusalem well before the times of Mohammed or Jesus(who beleive it or not was a jew)
3. So to say there was a Mosque over a temple is ludicrous....cause ost of the major mosques in the Lebanon/Israel/Turkey/Albania/etc....were either churches or Synagogues, that had the star of David and Crucifix replaced with a crecent moon after being invaded. THAT VANDALISM DOES NOT MAKE IT A MOSQUE.

Lebanon does nothing to control its border with Israel and smacking down on Hez. So since Israel's beef was with hez, Lebaneeses officials should be greatful to Israel for attempting to rid them of that weed.

The heart of this conflict...the very thing that draws the line in the sand is.... religion. Say what you want about treaties, resolutions, roadmaps, whatever..... in the mind of the common men, it comes down to religion. Not Jews vs Muslim.... but The teachings of Jeudaism and Christianity (or what we have evolved into).... VS Islam (the stale old religion that refuses to change).On one side.... you have the Jewish state...with beleive it or not has Muslim and Christian Citizens..... tolerant. On the other you have an enemy that's been obsessed with geographic conquest and racially segrating the peoples it conquers similar to the Nazis for eons, and the ONLY reason they are still at war with every possible civilization today is because of the psychotic ramblings in their 1700 year old text that no two people have the same understanding of. geographic conquest to control others who are different.

To me... after living in the middle east under muslim law (albiet relaxed and liberal) as a non-muslim..... never again. To me being neither a member of muslim states nor the Jewish state.... being asked to choose among who id rather live.....the answer is crystal clear. thats the difference. If i wanted the world to be filled with biggots and racists out to put me down cause im not like them...i wouldnt have any problem supporting those greedy for geographic conquests...but then.... there's be something wrong with me.

And yes... Israel was there before Hammas, before Arafat, before the Arab, before Mohammed, before Lebanon, before Saudi Arabia, before Iran, before Jesus..... it was the Jewish state, and it still exists today. Some of you keep calling for israel to comply with this resolution or that cease fire...how about calling the entire muslim world to comply with the UN decision to respect Israel's soverignity over that area ? or is that too much to ask for ?

Kudos to Israel for building up it's defence forces...... and i can assure you that my votes, as a free man, will goto the candidate that clearly supports Israel existence with Jerusalem as her capital.

Peace.

Shaddim · Sep 7, 2006, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Twist what?

You said the Arabs should move out of the occupied territories.

I called that ethnic cleansing. You start switching over to "killing militants".

It's not my problem you can't follow your own arguments through. But do continue with the personal attacks. I guess that's the only thing you have left.

you ARE a personal attack, it's as plain as your signature.

See you across the battle line.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Aw c'mon! The Zionists and their supporters need to have some lebensraum as well as find some kind of endlösung der Arabenfrage.

Yeah, Sayf. Israel is so friggin huge. That tiny dot of land is going to swallow all of your precious countries. And the Zionists control everything. Did you know I own a few banks and media outlets, personally? I have to get going, though, there's a meeting of the ZOG of America, and we have a bunch of new insidious plans. Oh, and say hi to the Mossad for me when you see them.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

you ARE a personal attack, it's as plain as your signature.

I am a personal attack? Did you mean that my comments and my signature are personal attacks in your opinion? Or that I personally am a personal attack. If so, please explain how I as a person can be a personal attack.

See you across the battle line.

oooh, tough guy! Got any more macho lines to add to that? Something like "I'll kick yo ass if I ever see ya, punk!".

Continue with the tough guy act. It's quite amusing!

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, Sayf. Israel is so friggin huge. That tiny dot of land is going to swallow all of your precious countries.

Israel is going to "swallow" Iceland and Sweden? Good luck!

Oh, and say hi to the Mossad for me when you see them.

Let me guess, you've anonymously "reported" me to them? Just like MacNStein has "contacted his friend" within the bureau about people on MacNN.

Do you seriously expect anyone to take you seriously?

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Israel is going to "swallow" Iceland and Sweden? Good luck!

Let me guess, you've anonymously "reported" me to them? Just like MacNStein has "contacted his friend" within the bureau about people on MacNN.

Do you seriously expect anyone to take you seriously?

I'll just let you wonder about my intent with that message.

Shaddim · Sep 7, 2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yeah, Sayf. Israel is so friggin huge. That tiny dot of land is going to swallow all of your precious countries. And the Zionists control everything. Did you know I own a few banks and media outlets, personally? I have to get going, though, there's a meeting of the ZOG of America, and we have a bunch of new insidious plans. Oh, and say hi to the Mossad for me when you see them.

Don't waste your time with him, there's nothing worthwhile about it.

Just knock the dust off your feet, and forget him.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:02 AM

The funny thing is, Troll is far more detestable than Sayf.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I'll just let you wonder about my intent with that message.

A mystery? Kewl!

analogika · Sep 7, 2006, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The funny thing is, Troll is far more detestable than Sayf.

That's only because you haven't, so far, come up with a single point that Troll hasn't managed to easily run into the ground.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:11 AM

You can persist in thinking that, anal. Confuse evil for good as you wish, right for wrong, as you wish.

analogika · Sep 7, 2006, 11:13 AM

Name one point that stands.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:18 AM

None of his points are valid, but from your twisted perspective you're blind to the truth.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 11:19 AM

Watch it analogika. He might imply that he could possibly have reported you to Mossad.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:21 AM

Hilarious. Pure gold. You're worried, aren't you?

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Hilarious. Pure gold. You're worried, aren't you?

Worried about an empty threat made by an anonymous poster on the internet? Not quite. Just amused.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:28 AM

The fact that you took it seriously at all, even for a second, is the funniest thing I have seen in a while. It was clearly in jest.

Or was it?

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

The fact that you took it seriously at all, even for a second, is the funniest thing I have seen in a while. It was clearly in jest.

Or was it?

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:34 AM

You're okay, Logic. You made me smile again. I love tweaking you Jew-haters.

Sayf-Allah · Sep 7, 2006, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You're okay, Logic. You made me smile again. I love tweaking you Jew-haters.

Awww, how cute. More personal attacks.

But please don't overuse the term "Jew-haters". If it does it will have become worthless when you are encountered with real "Jew-haters".

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 11:55 AM

Trust me, I know it when I see it. You hate Jews and you hate Christians. No reason to deny it.

Hawkeye_a · 12:22 PM

No no no. he doesnt hate Jews and Christians...just so long as they live supressed under Muslim rule, theyre A-OK !

analogika · Sep 7, 2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

None of his points are valid, but from your twisted perspective you're blind to the truth.

I dunno, International Law seems a lot more solid base than what you're standing on.

I mean, having to resort to calling people Nazis, Jew-Haters, and whatever other cards you pull isn't really a sign of strength of argument. Does that tactic work in legal arguments in the States? I may have seen it on Ally McBeal a long time ago, but somehow, I doubt that real courts work like that.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 12:07 PM

You rely on Troll for your most of your opinions against Israel. That's fine. You can remain deluded. But this is truly a poor venue for scholarly debate, due especially to the fact that you and your ilk are so transparently biased against the Jewish homeland. No matter how cogent and intellectual the arguments our side makes happen to be, you're still going to hate Israel and side with its enemies. It's truly a lost cause. And more accurately speaking, you and your kind truly are a lost cause.

lil'babykitten · Sep 7, 2006, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

The heart of this conflict...the very thing that draws the line in the sand is.... religion.

Wrong. The root of much of the violence in the Middle East is associated with the Palestinian predicament. And that is about nationalism and the right to self-determination.

lil'babykitten · Sep 7, 2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

None of his points are valid...

And yet you haven't yet presented an argument that refutes them.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Wrong. The root of much of the violence in the Middle East is associated with the Palestinian predicament. And that is about nationalism and the right to self-determination.

There is only one reason the so-called "Palestinians" want a state - in order to eradicate Israel. Do you deny it? And for Israel to give them a state would be state suicide.

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 12:32 PM

"Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed - we shall not forget Haifa, and Acre, and the Galilee, and Jaffa, and the Triangle and the Negev, and the rest of our cities and villages. It is only a matter of time. The weak will not remain forever weak, and the strong will not remain forever strong... If we are weak today... and we are not able to regain our rights, then at least we have to pass on the banner - waving high - to our children and grandchildren..." - Yasir Arafat, YM"SH

Big Mac · Sep 7, 2006, 12:45 PM

The Arabs could have lived in peace with the Jewish people on Jewish land. They rejected that choice decades before Israel declared its independence. They rejected that choice when they voluntarily left the land so that "conquering Arab armies could push the Jews to the sea." They rejected that choice through a relentless campaign of terrorism. They rejected that choice by waging war on Israel with their brethren. They do not wish to live in peace, and they never will.

Israel has tried to reward their barbarous misconduct over the course of its existence. They have tried to mollify them. They have tried to buy them off with infrastructure, schools, hospitals and universities. They plucked the King of Terrorism out of exile in Tunisia so that they could glorify the myth of the "Palestinian" and turn a villian into a putative statesman - all in an attempt to make a final peace. They gave Arafat money, guns and autonomy, without any assurance that the promises he made would be fulfilled. He openly violated those commitments before the ink was dry. Israel was paid back for all of that generosity with suicide terrorism. Israel was paid back with the Oslo War, the election of Hamas and the Hezballah War. What they do not accomplish at the negotiating table they do through terrorism.

Why should Israel continually reward its mortal enemies? Why should it reward barbarity? Why should it give away its land in exchange for murderous campaigns of terror? Why should it continue to play the victim? Why should it violate its own sovereignty and obligations to its citizenry by capitulating? Why shouldn't it hold the Arabs to the obligations they signed on to when the peace process started? Why should a disparate population of Arabs be rewarded for their warfare with a grant of Jewish land, so that they may launch the final intifada? What does Israel have to gain through weakness, other than more terror, more broken promises, and the furtherance of the great Arab aspiration to annihalate the Jew?

Demonhood · Sep 7, 2006, 12:58 PM

let me know when you gents and ladies can have a reasonable debate on the issues instead of hurling personal attacks at one another.

oh, and quoting someone you agree with and saying "don't bother with these idiots. they'll never see the light. LOL!!1!" isn't productive either.