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Article: Is Barack Obama a Muslim Wolf in Christian Wool? (Page 2)
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Doofy
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Apr 1, 2008, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
So, you would vote against someone simply because radicals might not like it if he were elected?
I never vote against anyone - I always vote for someone. I don't believe in negative voting. If there's nobody worth voting for, I don't bother.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
In what way?
Well, they're both into killing Jews, for example. Hence the muslims helping Adolf out in WW2 and the current best selling book outside the koran in many muslim countries is Mein Kampf.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Even if Islam can be equated with Nazism, how can Obama be equated with Islam without demonizing based solely on the circumstance of his birth?
That wasn't the question I was answering.
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paul w
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Apr 1, 2008, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No irony there.

islam can very easily be equated with nazism in respect to their shared treatment of Jews. The Jews are simply looking out for themselves.
By that measure, Islam no more a religion of antisemitism than Christianity.
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Well, they're both into killing Jews, for example. Hence the muslims helping Adolf out in WW2 and the current best selling book outside the koran in many muslim countries is Mein Kampf.
So were Henry Ford, Martin Luther and Joseph Stalin, but that doesn't mean they have much in common other than their anti-semitism.
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:12 AM
 
Keep deluding yourselves, people. One day you'll wake up to a rather large shock.
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paul w
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:22 AM
 
Riiight, because history has shown that ignorance and fear mongering lead to peace and safety.
     
Doofy
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:24 AM
 
Works for Al Gore.
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Wiskedjak
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I never vote against anyone - I always vote for someone. I don't believe in negative voting. If there's nobody worth voting for, I don't bother.
Fair enough. All other things being equal between two candidates, would you vote for one simply because radicals might not like it if the other were elected?
     
Wiskedjak
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
That wasn't the question I was answering.
Then your answer wasn't addressing the question asked by Red Rocket.

Red Rocket wondered
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
Why do I always see Zionist Jews accusing Barry Obama of being a Muslim? What the hell are these guys trying to suggest, Muslims are bad? What is this madness, Antimuslimism, or something? I’d have thought Jews, of all people, would know better than to try to demonise other people on the basis of their ethno‑religious background, that kind of attitude may very well backfire.
You responded with:
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
islam can very easily be equated with nazism in respect to their shared treatment of Jews. The Jews are simply looking out for themselves.
In the context of Red Rocket's post, your's seems to say that the Jews are looking out for themselves by demonizing Obama on the basis of his ethno-religious background.
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Fair enough. All other things being equal between two candidates, would you vote for one simply because radicals might not like it if the other were elected?
This situation would never happen, since in order for the radicals to like one more than the other then the candidates can't possibly be equal.
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Doofy
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
In the context of Red Rocket's post, your's seems to say that the Jews are looking out for themselves by demonizing Obama on the basis of his ethno-religious background.
I was a little off-thread - I wasn't really taking the Obama part into consideration - just the latter bit about Jews demonising people.

Let's put it this way: It's perfectly OK to demonise people if the stereotype is generally accurate. For example, it's perfectly OK to demonise kooky scientologists. Or donkeyhole nazis.

Don't rich kids get demonised by the left simply because of their background?
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Wiskedjak
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Apr 1, 2008, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I was a little off-thread - I wasn't really taking the Obama part into consideration - just the latter bit about Jews demonising people.

Let's put it this way: It's perfectly OK to demonise people if the stereotype is generally accurate. For example, it's perfectly OK to demonise kooky scientologists. Or donkeyhole nazis.

Don't rich kids get demonised by the left simply because of their background?
So, back to Red Rocket's post; do you think it's OK to demonize Obama based on circumstances of his birth?
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:14 AM
 
Shush, fool, he's trying not to anger the terrorists. If we don't vote the way the terrorists would have wanted us to, they'll terrorize us some more. Just do what they say, vote for who we think they would dislike the least, and maybe they'll leave us alone.
     
vmarks
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:15 AM
 
Actually, Obama's foreign policy is dreadful and confused.

But this is something we can talk about. We can also talk about whether or not his affinity for Islam and his experiences as a youth will affect his foreign policy in a positive or negative sense. We can do these things rationally without making up hysterical secret-Muslim nonsense.

His calls for meeting with Iran and Syria sends a message: the President of the United States is ready to engage with a regime that has ruined Lebanon and to shake hands with the Holocaust-denying president of a regime that threatens and boasts of its plans to commit a second Holocaust. He seemingly is prepared to ignore UN Security Resolutions that require Iran to stop its nuclear enrichment program as a precondition for talks at the highest level.

AT THE SAME TIME, he has stated when he appeared before pro-Israel groups that he will not talk to Hamas. He stated on the campaign trail "You can't negotiate with somebody who does not recognize the right of a country to exist so I understand why Israel doesn't meet with Hamas" and he has ruled out talks himself with Hamas.

How can he agree to talk with Iran and not Hamas and Hizb'Allah? After all, all three advocate and plan for the destruction of Israel and Iran is a prime sponsor of Hamas and Hizb'Allah.

Additionally, he is going to have to either support Israel or abandon Israel - there is no nuance that the people of Syria, Lebanon, or Iran will accept. Having to do this will either abandon a country that really is the freest state in the region in order to endear himself to Muslim nations, or will mean destroying any good will that Obama's past relationship with Islam would grant him. Because I am a supporter of free societies, I cannot vote for a person who would consider abandoning a free society.

It should also be noted that his chief foreign policy advisor is Zbigniew Brzezinski, who did so well in that position under Jimmy Carter. No history with Iran there, is there? His former advisor Samantha Power, who resigned from the campaign recently, had discussed the notion of disarming Israel and sending in US troops to fight for Palestinians. She tried to distance herself from those remarks. If this is the quality of advice being given to a would-be President, I think we have enough to worry about without foolish accusations of 'secret-Muslims.'
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
So, back to Red Rocket's post; do you think it's OK to demonize Obama based on circumstances of his birth?
No.

However, the circumstances of his birth will automatically make him a higher priority target for the loonies. Apostasy and all that.
Which could open up a greater security threat for all.

Any which way, and whoever gets in, the US will probably be hit by another major act within the first year. Seems to be the MO - you know, test the new prez and all that.
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
However, the circumstances of his birth will automatically make him a higher priority target for the loonies. Apostasy and all that.
Which could open up a greater security threat for all.
Are you suggesting that people vote for someone other than Obama because Obama might be a higher priority target for the loonies?
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Are you suggesting that people vote for someone other than Obama because Obama might be a higher priority target for the loonies?
No, I'm just stating a fact.

If you want a voting suggestion off me, then vote for Ron Paul - because he looks like the only bloke who actually understands what it is that the United States has been built on.
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Wiskedjak
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No, I'm just stating a fact.
cop out.

Why even bother stating such a fact if not to try and scare people away from voting for him, as if the President of the United States isn't already the highest priority target for loonies around the world?

There are lots of facts to state. Tell us why you chose to state this particular one.
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:53 AM
 
Isn't anyone who's tough on terrorism the highest priority target for loonies around the world?
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:56 AM
 
I'm still waiting for a response on the question of any major policy areas when Obama is unclear.
     
Doofy
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Apr 1, 2008, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Why even bother stating such a fact if not to try and scare people away from voting for him
I really don't give a toss who gets in as US prez. They're all politicians. Vote for Obama if you want... ...your country, you screw it up in whatever way you see fit.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
There are lots of facts to state.
I'm sure there are.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Tell us why you chose to state this particular one.
It seemed like a natural development of the conversation happening in-thread.
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Wiskedjak
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
It seemed like a natural development of the conversation happening in-thread.
How so?
     
Doofy
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:05 PM
 
You know, the bit about Obama having being born muslim and converted to Christianity. The loonies call it apostasy. And it usually carries the death penalty.
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Wiskedjak
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You know, the bit about Obama having being born muslim and converted to Christianity. The loonies call it apostasy. And it usually carries the death penalty.
And, you believe that such a President would open up a greater security threat than any other President?
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Riiight, because history has shown that ignorance and fear mongering lead to peace and safety.
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Works for Al Gore.
Worked in Spain and the U.K.
45/47
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
I'm still waiting for a response on the question of any major policy areas when Obama is unclear.
Then you might have missed where I talked about his conflicted and confused foreign policy.
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
And, you believe that such a President would open up a greater security threat than any other President?
Possibly. However, the context of the question was asking why the Jews are getting so worked up about it. I was simply offering a fact which may or may not have some affect on how the Jews see things. Not being a Jew, I can't tell you for sure. But, you know, I can suggest things.

Are you always this boring to have a conversation with?
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Worked in Spain and the U.K.
Spain, yes (election switch after train bombs). Here, not so much.
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You know, the bit about Obama having being born muslim and converted to Christianity. The loonies call it apostasy. And it usually carries the death penalty.
ask Magdi Allam Pope baptizes famous Muslim convert | Reuters and the Caner brothers (Ergun and Emir)
45/47
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Then you might have missed where I talked about his conflicted and confused foreign policy.
I did - which parts of it are unclear?
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Possibly. However, the context of the question was asking why the Jews are getting so worked up about it. I was simply offering a fact which may or may not have some affect on how the Jews see things. Not being a Jew, I can't tell you for sure. But, you know, I can suggest things.
I'm still having difficulty seeing what Jews could possibly get worked up about over a black, American, Christian ...

Are you always this boring to have a conversation with?
Only when trying to get evasive people to answer questions honestly.
( Last edited by Wiskedjak; Apr 1, 2008 at 04:53 PM. )
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 03:57 PM
 
So, you're calling me a liar then, simply because you assume that I have some kind of motive going on here?
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Apr 1, 2008, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So, you're calling me a liar then, simply because you assume that I have some kind of motive going on here?
Not a liar. Evasive. You're obviously being very careful not to lie.
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Worked in Spain and the U.K.
In which dimension was that?

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Apr 1, 2008, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Spain, yes (election switch after train bombs). Here, not so much.
Election nudge after PP supporters became disillusioned after the fool Aznar insisted ETA stood behind the bombings despite clear evidence on the contrary, for God-knows-what reason.

PP made a political blunder right before a general election and lost a -few- percentage points and PSOE gained a few.

PP would have walked away with the election had they come out immediately, explained muslim-sociopaths had committed atrocious acts of terrorism (yet again) and vowed to go after them.

It isn't the fault of the terrorists that the PP are politically incompetent.

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Apr 1, 2008, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Not a liar. Evasive. You're obviously being very careful not to lie.
I'm not being evasive. You only believe this to be true because you've already dreamed up some answer which I'm supposed to give and for me to come out with anything else is "evasive".

I can't help it if you're imagining things.
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Apr 1, 2008, 07:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Actually, Obama's foreign policy is dreadful and confused.

His calls for meeting with Iran and Syria sends a message: the President of the United States is ready to engage with a regime that has ruined Lebanon and to shake hands with the Holocaust-denying president of a regime that threatens and boasts of its plans to commit a second Holocaust. He seemingly is prepared to ignore UN Security Resolutions that require Iran to stop its nuclear enrichment program as a precondition for talks at the highest level.

AT THE SAME TIME, he has stated when he appeared before pro-Israel groups that he will not talk to Hamas. He stated on the campaign trail "You can't negotiate with somebody who does not recognize the right of a country to exist so I understand why Israel doesn't meet with Hamas" and he has ruled out talks himself with Hamas.

How can he agree to talk with Iran and not Hamas and Hizb'Allah? After all, all three advocate and plan for the destruction of Israel and Iran is a prime sponsor of Hamas and Hizb'Allah.
This doesn't seem confusing to me. You aren't going to persuade Iran to halt it's weapons programme if you continue to threaten her with sanctions or worse, military action. That action has thus far only helped fuel Ahmadinejad's populist rhetoric which says Iran needs the weapons to defend itself in the face of foreign aggression. Talking to Iran (and Syria) seems to be the most logical and practical way to deal with them.

It also makes sense that Obama would suggest talking to Iran and Syria before Hamas and Hezbollah. The former are the latter's sponsors and main weapon's suppliers. If talks with Iran and Syria make progress part of that would be because both would start limiting their support for Hamas and Hezbollah, which in turn gives those groups a small incentive to return to political participation and negotiation. Evidence that this is a viable description of possible developments is there - when the US quietly engaged Iran and Syria some months ago, Iranian sponsored militias in southern Iraq stood down their activities and the flow of insurgents in to Iraq from Syria also slowed.

As unpalatable to you (as an American and Israeli) it sounds to talk to state and non-state parties that have tried to kill US troops (indirectly) and Israelis, dialogue with these groups is nevertheless inevitable, and you know it. When the time is right, politically, to start talking, it will happen. In that sense, Obama's policy positions are that of a pragmatic realist.
     
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Apr 1, 2008, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm not being evasive. You only believe this to be true because you've already dreamed up some answer which I'm supposed to give and for me to come out with anything else is "evasive".

I can't help it if you're imagining things.
On one hand I would say you are being evasive. You suggest a lot (sweeping generalizations are good, if can find a rationale basis for a stereotype in history then it must apply, demonizing people is fun, etc). Its subtle and suggestive and doesn't leave a whole lot to argue with. Like where you said that Jews were just looking out for themselves (by demonizing Obama)... and then back-peddled and said that what you had just stated was a fact was merely an opinion with no basis in.. fact.
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Apr 1, 2008, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by lil'babykitten View Post
As unpalatable to you (as an American and Israeli) it sounds to talk to state and non-state parties that have tried to kill US troops (indirectly) and Israelis, dialogue with these groups is nevertheless inevitable, and you know it. When the time is right, politically, to start talking, it will happen. In that sense, Obama's policy positions are that of a pragmatic realist.
I'd certainly agree with you here.

That ignoring and sanctioning a country doesn't "work" is, I think, a conclusion reached by most people. I AM a big supporter of denying any and all international political support to terrorist groups, causes, or countries who support these.

However, that doesn't mean that some sort of dialogue shouldn't be opened. That dialogue can clearly be results-driven based on the elimination of terrorist activity or support, but will still have to exist to have any chance of reconciliation or compromise.

greg
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Apr 1, 2008, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
That ignoring and sanctioning a country doesn't "work" is, I think, a conclusion reached by most people. I AM a big supporter of denying any and all international political support to terrorist groups, causes, or countries who support these.
But what about Cuba?

Obama's Cuba policy---quite different from Bush, McCain, and Clinton's policy---is a bright spot for him.
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Apr 1, 2008, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
But what about Cuba?
Heh heh.

Cuba's a special category I think. And I'm not sure that those sanctions "worked" either.

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Apr 1, 2008, 09:12 PM
 
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