[cmeisenzahl]

Kinda new to this, not sure which to grab.

And I'm not clear on whether AppleCare covers accidental drops or water damage.

This site looks to say yes:
http://www.apple.com/support/products/iphone.html

But page 12 of this PDF looks to say no:
http://bit.ly/pplXuY

Thanks!

[Waragainstsleep]

New Applecare+ covers accidental damage up to two incidents but charges and excess. It must be bought with the phone.

[Big Mac]

cmeisenzahl, AppleCare+ is the new version of the coverage that came out with the 4S; the + in the name is for accidental damage coverage. The manual you linked to is an older one for the previous normal AppleCare.

I haven't looked at the specifics of AT&T insurance, but Verizon's insurance for the 4S has very high deductibles. I assume AT&T's is probably the same.

[osiris]

The Apple store rep said that water damage is not covered under any of their plans.
I bought the coverage anyway, because I'm gonna beat the living hell out of my iPhone.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

New Applecare+... ...It must be bought with the phone.

Not true. Apple's Terms & Conditions Item 11 (x) states
" You must purchase the Plan while your original iPhone is within Apple’s One Year Limited
warranty."

Link for "AppleCare+ for iPhone" at
Apple - Legal - Service Products - AppleCare Protection Plan

Other locations say 30 days, but all link to the above as the legal reference.

Plus Apple makes hella money on every flavor of AppleCare, so the most I see them doing is needing to physically see the iPhone to sell AppleCare+ anytime in the first year.

However the point IMO is kinda moot, because IF one intends buying AppleCare+ it makes sense to buy it immediately, because the coverage term is not any longer by buying later. And the possibility of dropping the $750-$950 iPhone 4s in the dishwater starts on day one...

Note AppleCare+ does NOT COVER LOSS or theft, IMO a huge downside of AppleCare+. If you drop your iPhone in the bay, jump in and retrieve it.

-Allen

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by osiris 

The Apple store rep said that water damage is not covered under any of their plans.

He lied.
AppleCare+ is different than AppleCare. Language from the TaC previously linked to above, emphasis mine:

"3.2 Accidental Damage from Handling
If during the Coverage Period you submit a valid claim notifying Apple that the Covered
Equipment has failed due to accidental damage from handling (“ADH”), Apple will, subject to
the service fee described below, either (i) repair the defect using new or refurbished parts that
are equivalent to new in performance and reliability, or (ii) exchange the Covered Equipment
with a replacement product that is new or equivalent to new in performance and reliability, and
is at least functionally equivalent to the original product (both individually known as a “Service
Event”). ADH coverage will expire and all Apple’s obligations to you under this section 3.2
will be fulfilled in its entirety before the end of the Coverage Period when Apple, as a result
of ADH claims, has provided to you two (2) Service Events. ADH coverage only applies to
operational or mechanical failure caused by an accident from handling that is the result of an
unexpected and unintentional external event (e.g., drops and liquid contact) that arises from
your normal daily usage of the Covered Equipment as intended for such Covered Equipment.
ADH coverage does not include (a) protection against normal wear and tear, theft, misplacement,
reckless, abusive, willful or intentional conduct associated with handling and use of the Covered
Equipment, (b) protection against any other act or result not covered by the Plan, as described in
Section 4.2 below, or (c) any resultant damage to the Covered Equipment that arises from one or
more conditions described in Section 3.2(a) or (b). You will pay a $49 (U.S.) dollar service fee for
each ADH claim, and may be asked to provide an explanation of where and when the accident
occurred with a detailed description of the actual event. Failure to pay the service fee or provide
information relating to the accident when asked will result in claim denial."

The moral of the story is do not trust retail sales folks and do not trust random Apple website statements when it comes to legal issues like warranties.

HTH

-Allen

[imitchellg5]

Insurance via carriers is pretty much a rip off. High deductible if you use it, and if you don't use it, then you've nearly paid for the full price of the phone.

[SierraDragon]

IMO loss/theft is a very critical part of device insurance, and AppleCare+ does NOT COVER LOSS or theft.
Please everyone submit your sources/ideas on 4s insurance that includes loss/theft.

One source I found is Worth Ave. Group, ~$100 for one year, ~$300 for 3 years which includes loss/theft but has a $50 deductible, unlimited number of claims. But I have not analyzed it, do your own analysis and do not trust what I say about any of these insurers. In particular, exactly what/how they pay out is unclear to me.

-Allen

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Insurance via carriers is pretty much a rip off. High deductible if you use it, and if you don't use it, then you've nearly paid for the full price of the phone.

I am inclined to agree. Note however that for the 64-GB 4s it looks like replacement cost is $850 plus ~$70 tax so a year of insurance at $100 plus $50 deductible is not nearly full price. Even the 16-GB 4s costs $650 plus ~$50 tax to replace.

Definitely a dilemma. I look forward to hearing what others think and deals they find. In the past I had monthly cell phone loss insurance that worked well, but dealing with a $850 iP4s is a new challenge.

-Allen

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Not true. Apple's Terms & Conditions Item 11 (x) states
" You must purchase the Plan while your original iPhone is within Apple’s One Year Limited
warranty."

Link for "AppleCare+ for iPhone" at
Apple - Legal - Service Products - AppleCare Protection Plan

Other locations say 30 days, but all link to the above as the legal reference.

Plus Apple makes hella money on every flavor of AppleCare, so the most I see them doing is needing to physically see the iPhone to sell AppleCare+ anytime in the first year.

-Allen

I can't imagine those t&cs apply until after you buy it so they still have to let you buy it in the first place.

How to get AppleCare+
AppleCare+ must be purchased together with your new iPhone. To buy it, add it to your shopping cart during the checkout process when you purchase your new iPhone.
Note: Through November 14, AppleCare+ can be purchased by customers who:

Pre-ordered iPhone 4 (8GB) or iPhone 4S
Purchased an iPhone (any model) on or after October 14, 2011 (proof of purchase date may be required)

I'm guessing thats where the 30 days came from. Looks like you are fine to buy it until November 14th.

I too imagine that if you make enough of a fuss in an Apple Store (after that date) and show your phone working they will probably make an exception. I was just quoting the official line. Depends on how locked down their system is on who is able to authorise it.

[SierraDragon]

The T&C represents the contract Apple made when an iPhone is purchased. Pretty clear to me that it allows a year, but you are right about the fuss and who is authorized to allow what.

Right now $100 + $50 deductible AppleCare+ with no theft/loss coverage looks too expensive.

More sensible looks to be buying 12 months of third-party theft/loss insurance.

Personally I also factor in the fact that I might want to sell the 4s in a year to buy the next generation if a large display is offered.

-Allen

[osiris]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

He lied.
AppleCare+ is different than AppleCare. Language from the TaC previously linked to above, emphasis mine:

"3.2 Accidental Damage from Handling
If during the Coverage Period you submit a valid claim notifying Apple that the Covered
Equipment has failed due to accidental damage from handling (“ADH”), Apple will, subject to
the service fee described below, either (i) repair the defect using new or refurbished parts that
are equivalent to new in performance and reliability, or (ii) exchange the Covered Equipment
with a replacement product that is new or equivalent to new in performance and reliability, and
is at least functionally equivalent to the original product (both individually known as a “Service
Event”). ADH coverage will expire and all Apple’s obligations to you under this section 3.2
will be fulfilled in its entirety before the end of the Coverage Period when Apple, as a result
of ADH claims, has provided to you two (2) Service Events. ADH coverage only applies to
operational or mechanical failure caused by an accident from handling that is the result of an
unexpected and unintentional external event (e.g., drops and liquid contact) that arises from
your normal daily usage of the Covered Equipment as intended for such Covered Equipment.
ADH coverage does not include (a) protection against normal wear and tear, theft, misplacement,
reckless, abusive, willful or intentional conduct associated with handling and use of the Covered
Equipment, (b) protection against any other act or result not covered by the Plan, as described in
Section 4.2 below, or (c) any resultant damage to the Covered Equipment that arises from one or
more conditions described in Section 3.2(a) or (b). You will pay a $49 (U.S.) dollar service fee for
each ADH claim, and may be asked to provide an explanation of where and when the accident
occurred with a detailed description of the actual event. Failure to pay the service fee or provide
information relating to the accident when asked will result in claim denial."

The moral of the story is do not trust retail sales folks and do not trust random Apple website statements when it comes to legal issues like warranties.

HTH

-Allen

That's reassuring, thank you for the info, Allen. Contrary to my statement, I do take care of things, so hopefully I'll never need to file a claim.

[Waragainstsleep]

Those terms were for Applecare+, not the iPhone itself.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Those terms were for Applecare+, not the iPhone itself.

AC+ does not stand alone, it only exists as an iPhone component. I buy a phone of which AppleCare+ is an optional add-on component and Apple contracts via those T&C that I can buy AppleCare+ for a year.

Like I said it should be moot because one should either buy AC+ immediately with the phone purchase or not at all. The lack of loss coverage has me thinking AC+ provides inadequate value anyway.

-Allen

[Waragainstsleep]

Those terms are for Applecare+, not the iPhone. They can't come into effect until after you purchase the Applecare+, therefore the part about having to purchase it within a year is meaningless because you have to have bought it already and Apple (says) they will not sell it to you unless you buy it same day (or before November 14th). Its most likely a hangover from the standard Applecare terms.

Its like me stating here that you have to read this post within a year of reading this post.

[SierraDragon]

Clearly we disagree about the legal consequences. It may or may not be a hangover from AC but it certainly is still in place as of today, meaning it applies to more than 4,000,000 iP4s purchases.

My analysis is that folks buying iPhones include consideration of available warranty extensions as part of the purchase decision and Apple says "go here for the rules on iP4s warranty extensions."

Then when one pursues that link titled Apple - Legal... to the document titled AppleCarePlus those Apple Legal Department Rules state:
"You must purchase the Plan while your original iPhone is within Apple’s One Year Limited warranty."

In my experience Apple made a very clear contract with buyers that says buy the phone and you can buy AC+ for a year.

The fact that other web postings present other more restrictive terms does not IMO invalidate that contract Apple made with those 4M individuals when they bought phones, even if Apple was to modify the Apple - Legal... T&C (which BTW Apple has not done).

-Allen

[Waragainstsleep]

I really don't see where you are coming from. Applecare+ is not a mandatory purchase, it is an optional extra purchase with its own terms.

The iPhone 4/S will have its own terms. If the iPhone 4/S terms say you can purchase Applecare+ for up to a year, then you have a point. If your logic is correct, then I'm going to start selling an optional extra for a Ferrari with terms that say Ferrari owners have to let me drive their Ferrari if I ask. Since it doesn't matter according to you whether they buy my optional extra or not, I will automatically have free loan access to every Ferrari in the US.

[SierraDragon]

Your Chewbacca logic confuses but does not change the facts.

Acme Corp advertises a widget. On the Acme Store web page for the widget Acme states extra feature A for the widget is available, and rules for adding feature A are at Acme's legal site X.

Site X states:
"You must purchase feature A while the original widget is within Acme’s One Year Limited warranty."

Person BB buys a widget. BB has a year to add feature A to the widget.
---------------------------------------------------------
Or

Ford advertises a car. On the Ford web page for the car, Ford states an extra mirror for the car is available, and rules for adding the mirror are at Ford's legal site X.

Site X states:
"You must purchase the mirror while the original car is within Ford’s One Year Limited warranty."

Person BB buys a car. BB has a year to add the mirror to the car.

What is hard to understand?

[Waragainstsleep]

Yeah, what I'm saying is that those terms don't come into effect until after you purchase the Applecare+. By purchasing it, you agree to those terms. If Apple refuses to sell you the product (in this case it is not a boxed product so I suspect they might be unable to sell it to you after November 14th unless you buy an iPhone at the same time) then those terms mean nothing at all. You can point them out to Apple but since you haven't purchased the product yet, neither you or Apple are bound by those terms.

In order for there to be legally applicable terms & conditions that you can refer Apple to in order to purchase Applecare+ 11 months after the iPhone, then the condition you quote must appear in the t&cs for the iPhone otherwise you have no right to it demand it since you have not entered into any legally binding agreement.

That term is included in the standard Applecare terms because its a boxed product, but if you buy it when your Mac is 5 years old it gives Apple a get out clause when you discover you can't register and therefore use it on your 5 year old product. It doesn't actually serve any purpose for Applecare+ since you cannot buy it when your phone is over 14 days old (you could get a refund and buy another phone with AP+ within that period) unless Apple chooses to make an exception for you.

You are the one failing to grasp the simple concept here.
For person BB to be restricted to a one year period to add a mirror to their car, that restriction must be written in the terms & conditions for the car, NOT the mirror. Aside from this, once the year is up you can glue 3000 mirrors to your car if you so wish.
Same applies to your widget, the condition must be attached to the terms for the widget, not the terms for feature A.

T&Cs are like a contract you enter into when you buy a product, much like a EULA. They have no power over you until you purchase the relevant product.
The restrictions here are being enforced before anything in the terms for AP+ come into play, thus rendering that particular condition useless. Besides that, the condition you quote only really says that you cannot buy AP+ after your warranty is expired, it does not say you are entitled to buy it for up to a year from iPhone purchase date.

[SierraDragon]

T&Cs are like a contract you enter into when you buy a product, much like a EULA. They have no power over you until you purchase the relevant product.

I agree, except that IMO the AC+ offer is part and parcel of the 4s purchase. Ergo buy the phone and the terms offered under "Protection" come into play just like the other advertised features a buyer expects entitlement to.

As I see it, if the 4s is advertised as having features A thru Z, one of which gets added separately (which is exactly the way the 4s is shown on the Apple Store, "Protection" in the list of features as you scroll down the page after Camera, Video, etc.). I f you go to the Apple Store/iPhone 4s and click on "Features" it takes you to:
http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/

then in that Protection box at the store the Protection feature says

AppleCare+ must be purchased together with new covered equipment. See AppleCare+ Terms and Conditions for complete product details.

and the T&C linked there says
"You must purchase the Plan while your original iPhone is within Apple’s One Year Limited warranty."

then IMO it is a year.

Imagine if I went to use the camera and it did not work, and Apple said Heh, sorry you had to kiss the Blarney Stone last Tuesday for that feature to work.

My Chewbacca argument maybe, but IMO a reasonable person would say I was entitled to the camera feature. IMO a reasonable person would agree I am also entitled to other features on the 4s Apple Store Features List, including "Protection."

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

I agree, except that [b]IMO the AC+ offer is part and parcel of the 4s purchase.

IMO Apple should give me a free 4S and a bunch of other free stuff in exchange for years of underpaid, thankless service and evangelism but its not going to happen and I certainly have no legal entitlement.

Regardless of whether your opinion should count as legal precedent, the one year line is still a restriction and not an entitlement.

[jmiddel]

When I ordered my 4S thru Verizon, they never gave me the option to buy AC+. So I had to call Apple, wait 35 minutes, and then I was promptly helped. I got AC+ simply for the peace of mind, as with any insurance I hope never to have to use it.

[turtle777]

I'm self-insured.

-t

[SierraDragon]

Interesting. I have no trouble self-insuring a $2700 MBP frequently left at-risk in a vehicle but am stressing over a $900 iPhone that lives in a great OtterBox case in my pocket. WTF?

-Allen

[cmeisenzahl]

Thanks, guys. I ended up calling Apple and buying AppleCare+.

[SierraDragon]

Told you so:

Apple now allowing 30 days to buy AppleCare+ for iPhone | MacNN

[Big Mac]

Told you so? Not really, SD. You were telling everyone that AppleCare+ could be purchased within the one year period like normal AppleCare. Now we have a 30 day after purchase extension, which I'm happy to see, but it's different from what you were stating to be so.