Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > "Post-PC" Devices

"Post-PC" Devices (Page 3)
Thread Tools
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Yeah, it's too slow for "basic" things today, though it is mostly the graphics performance.
That may or may not be true. Depends if you call H.264 playback for example "graphics performance", because the A5 beats the pants off the G4 even with one-core tied behind its back (as exemplified by the single-core A4) for H.264.

The point here is that it doesn't really matter that the A5 isn't a Linpack star. Old Power Macs simply were not designed with 2011 in mind, and thus even if it beat the A5 on a lot of measures, it will still be hopelessly out of date because of other hardware deficiencies, and a new optimized slim OS is not going to help. For H.264 what would help would be a new GPU with hardware H.264 decode acceleration or else a dedicated H.264 decoder, but then it wouldn't be a decade old G4 any more.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Actually no. The raw computing power of the iPad 2 for this purpose is actually much higher than a decade old G4 Power Mac, because the iPad 2's ARM chip was specifically designed for it.
"for this purpose" being the crux of the matter.

While for other purposes the old G4 Power Mac has way more computing power - again because it was specifically designed for it (i.e. AltiVec for FP instructions)

It's like GPUs have way more computing power than the most powerful CPUs. As long as you do only what the GPUs are designed to do. Stray from that and computing performance drops like a stone. Stray away from the strong sides of the tablets and one will see the same thing.

Either way, the point is that it's an immense deception to say, unqualified, that the tablets of today are more powerful than the towers of 10 years ago. ... though the tablets *should* be if the rhetoric of the evangelists are to be believed.

The ultrathin, battery powered all-in-one devices come at a high performance compromise. So high that they are in fact comparable to 10 year old computers in many aspects. Anyone who wants to sell you these tablets as "the future" must willingly skip this fact, ignore it and point at the (admittably) amazing graphics performance of the tablets.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
ort888
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Your Anus
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 11:27 AM
 
I mean, what are we really comparing anyway? If you took away the battery, the guts of an iPad are about the size of a piece of beef jerky.

A 10 year old PowerMac G4 weighs like 30 lbs and is the size of a Pit Bull.

Meh.

Anyway, I don't consider these Post-PC devices at all. I think of them more as Pre-ZPS devices.

What's ZPS you ask? You'll find out later, it's a surprise!

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The ultrathin, battery powered all-in-one devices come at a high performance compromise. So high that they are in fact comparable to 10 year old computers in many aspects. Anyone who wants to sell you these tablets as "the future" must willingly skip this fact, ignore it and point at the (admittably) amazing graphics performance of the tablets.
The compromise will be less and less as the hardware and software matures. We aren't "selling" these devices as the future, they are the future. In five years when someone mentions getting a new computer they'll be talking about a tablet. There will still be a market for desktops, but that market will be much smaller and more specialized.

FWIW, there's no reason not to point at the graphics performance of the iPad 2, given how focused the current generation of devices are on media consumption, graphics performance is much more important now. People want to read their news, shop, watch videos (on Netflix, YouTube, and Hulu), post on Twitter, play a few games, check email, etc.. and these things excel in those areas.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Don Pickett
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: New York, NY, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 12:17 PM
 
As an aside, here's a great quote from Paul Krugman on the mainframe era: These were still the days of big mainframes and punchcards; you handed a deck of cards to the high priests behind the glass wall, then an hour later you got back a huge stack of hexadecimal garbage because you made an error on one of your cards.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 12:37 PM
 
When I was a kid, I visited a lab that used punched tape. The comp-sci students there used to amuse themselves all day long by programming simple songs onto the tape and playing back the music through the giant computer.

I may be dating myself, but when I took my first university computer course, it was on a VAX. I did a brief look around just now and found that a much higher end model VAX than what my school had was capable of doing 22 Mflops... and the computer would have tens if not hundreds of users online at any one time. That 22 Mflop VAX came out only 20 years ago, and cost 1 million bux. The original Apple Macintosh could do 0.004.

The iPad 2 can do 171 Mflops... and it's not even specifically built for this task. Interestingly, this compares well to an early model G4 PowerBook Titanium.
     
mattyb
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Standing on the shoulders of giants
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
As an aside, here's a great quote from Paul Krugman on the mainframe era: These were still the days of big mainframes and punchcards; you handed a deck of cards to the high priests behind the glass wall, then an hour later you got back a huge stack of hexadecimal garbage because you made an error on one of your cards.
By the time I worked on mainframes, punched cards were dead, but the high priests thing is certainly true. I was hired to replace one. While I learned alot, nothing compares to having 30+ years experience on a system.
     
Phileas
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
If you're free to answer... what will they be used for?
Depends on the job description of the owner, but it includes all of these tasks:

Social Media Monitoring via Hootsuite.
Email and web.
Research and reading via Pulse Reader etc.
(Limited) access to files while on the road via Dropbox.
Client presentations via SlideRocket.
Sound recording device.
Sketching and designing websites.
Mindmaps
Clapper device for the video team.
Evernote access - we share a lot of data that way.
Google analytics access with Analytics HD.

There's more, but those are what I can think of right now.
     
Phileas
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
LOL, we're back at arguing about iPad dick size processing power.

Nobody fricking cares. For 95% of the users, it will not matter at all how a tablet stacks up in computing power to past desktop or laptop computers.

I actually have no idea how fast my MacBook Pro is - without looking it up. All I know is that the RAM is maxed out and that it does what I need it to do.
Business permitting, I tend to upgrade to the fastest available model every two years, but I rarely remember what the specs actually are.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 01:47 PM
 
BTW, the same arguments against the iPad are similar to arguments made against laptops as desktop replacements.

In the old days, laptops were basically always underpowered compared to desktops, and even casual users could be significantly limited if they got a laptop with no desktop. That has changed. For most users, a laptop is actually perfectly fine. The speed and, just as importantly, features, of laptops are such that they're sufficient for the vast majority of the population.

In 2011 the state of iOS and its apps are such that an iPad cannot really completely replace a laptop, but give it a few years and the picture may be completely different.

30 years? I dunno. 15 years? I also dunno, but hopefully by that time all that compute power necessary for basic tasks will be in my phone (or whatever its replacement will be), and all homes and workplaces will have wireless screens that can connect to that phone for use as a second monitor.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The compromise will be less and less as the hardware and software matures.
There's no indication of that, even the relatively thick and power-socket connectable laptops are far from being the equivalent of a desktop PC, and that's actually something the laptop makers strive for - but in order to keep the thing portable, compromises are made. On a thin, light, battery powered tablet - the compromises are even more dramatic. There's no solution for a low power GPU, integrated into the CPU, sharing RAM with the CPU, low speed bus, low RAM etc.

We aren't "selling" these devices as the future, they are the future.
Yeah, you're selling it all right. They *have* a future, that's as far as you should go.

In five years when someone mentions getting a new computer they'll be talking about a tablet. There will still be a market for desktops, but that market will be much smaller and more specialized.
Can you be more vague and generic? ... in fact you're just rephrasing what Steve Jobs said. We're on a Mac forum, I'm voodoo, I KNOW WHAT STEVE SAID.

It's common courtesy not to patronize me with some evangelist mumbo jumbo to an evangelist. "in the future" and a few cents will buy me a Coke.

One thing is for certain, you have no idea what will happen in 5 years and in this conversation you'd do better to stop claiming your future-predictions are fact, mkay?
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:07 PM
 
^^^ LOL. I just posted this:
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
BTW, the same arguments against the iPad are similar to arguments made against laptops as desktop replacements.

In the old days, laptops were basically always underpowered compared to desktops, and even casual users could be significantly limited if they got a laptop with no desktop. That has changed. For most users, a laptop is actually perfectly fine. The speed and, just as importantly, features, of laptops are such that they're sufficient for the vast majority of the population.
I know a lot of people with a single laptop and no desktop at all, or else a laptop and just an old desktop.

To put in another way, the improvements in technology aren't necessarily following the increased requirements. It seems to me that improvements in technology are outpacing the increased requirements, which means that people are willing to downgrade to smaller devices because they can.

I personally don't need my 8 virtual cores of i7 compute power in my iMac. The bigger importance to me is the 27" screen. My friends just get a MacBook Pro and a second screen.

In 2011 the state of iOS and its apps are such that an iPad cannot really completely replace a laptop, but give it a few years and the picture may be completely different.

30 years? I dunno. 15 years? I also dunno, but hopefully by that time all that compute power necessary for basic tasks will be in my phone (or whatever its replacement will be), and all homes and workplaces will have wireless screens that can connect to that phone for use as a second monitor.
For kicks I just ran Linpack on my iPhone 4. It peaked at 49 Mflops, but averaged around 37 Mflops. That's significantly faster than a VAX 9000 that cost $1 million just 20 years ago.

I would expect the spring 2011 iPhone 5 to be nearly as fast as the iPad 2.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post

BTW:
The first-generation iPad is more than 30% faster* than the fastest Power Mac available ten years before its release (the G4 500 (7400) AGP graphics).

The Power Mac cost $3500.

*) according to Geekbench, 450 vs. 330. The iPhone 4 gets 370.
From Eug's post in another thread.

So, 171 Mflop/s for the iPad 2

Here are other Linpack scores:

G5 2.2 GHz: 1681
G4 1 GHz: 284
G4 533 MHz: 231
PowerBook G4 500: 135
Power Mac 9500/233: 34
Original Mac: 0.0038

So basically, the iPad 2 has the compute power for fp in the range of a TiBook, whereas the original iPad was more comparable for fp to a System 7/OS 8 era Mac.
So in other words, you're spreading some fantasy stats on the iPad, Spheric. It certainly performs well in the sphere it was designed to perform in, but you couldn't leave it at that, and had to find some fantasy stats where the iPad was magically thin, battery powered on an ARM and yet super powerful. And indeed many of the flock believed it, for it serves well in the sales pitch of: "with more hardware and software maturity the iPad and its likes will catch up to modern desktops", when in fact they have not even caught up to a decade old minitower.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:15 PM
 
A decade old minitower can't even view a flash video, WTF is your point?
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:16 PM
 
voodoo, I posted those Linpack scores just for kicks.

However, I think H.264 decode ability for example is WAY more important for a general use machine than general FP performance.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:17 PM
 
A subtle reminder power isn't everything.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
BTW, the same arguments against the iPad are similar to arguments made against laptops as desktop replacements.
Perhaps, but the evangelism and vitriol on the iPad "side" along with the misinformation, futurism and apologism strikes me as the arguments between the video game console fans and PC game enthusiasts.

Apparently PCs had to become "trucks" in to satisfy the console enthusiasts, i.e. big and heavy and unspecialized. In the end no such thing happened, consoles and PCs can live - at the same time, no less - as will tablets and consoles and PCs.

There are those who only want to play games, so they ask themselves: why anything else than a dedicated gaming console?
There are those who only want to browse the internet, check email and play 90s games (and use a 700 dollar clapper device for a video team), so they ask themselves: why anything else than a tablet?
There are those that need laptops.
There are those that need desktops. Without a doubt the smallest part, but in no way shape or form does a tablet replace a desktop. Thus the people that need a desktop now will *still* need a desktop later. That market segment won't disappear. At all.

If you want a big screen, you'll always need a desktop. If you want performance, you'll always need a desktop. If you want expandability, you'll always need a desktop.

I could imagine similar dealbreakers for the users of laptops. The tablets are here, they have a niche to fill, but it's so limited imagination to think that they have to replace something in order to "win".

The only place on the internets where that mentality reigns is at Mac (or rather Apple) forums - mostly because Apple can't possibly concentrate on more than one thing at a time, so it's either the mantra of "tablets are the future" or to accept that Apple has serious limitations as a company and can make fundamental mistakes.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Don Pickett
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: New York, NY, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
A subtle reminder power isn't everything.
Unless your work is something which needs power--which is a very small part of the desktop computing world--power is just about dick measuring. And, even when I'm not at work, I don't need anything my almost seven year old G5 can give me.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Perhaps, but the evangelism and vitriol on the iPad "side" along with the misinformation, futurism and apologism strikes me as the arguments between the video game console fans and PC game enthusiasts.

Apparently PCs had to become "trucks" in to satisfy the console enthusiasts, i.e. big and heavy and unspecialized. In the end no such thing happened, consoles and PCs can live - at the same time, no less - as will tablets and consoles and PCs.

There are those who only want to play games, so they ask themselves: why anything else than a dedicated gaming console?
I game mostly on my iPhone. When I want more, I use my Xbox 360. ( I don't know anyone anymore with a dedicated gaming rig actually, although I'm not a 20-something anymore.)

There are those who only want to browse the internet, check email and play 90s games (and use a 700 dollar clapper device for a video team), so they ask themselves: why anything else than a tablet?
I surf on my iPhone, my laptops, and my desktops. And soon my iPad 2.

There are those that need laptops.
There are those that need desktops. Without a doubt the smallest part, but in no way shape or form does a tablet replace a desktop. Thus the people that need a desktop now will *still* need a desktop later. That market segment won't disappear. At all.
Nope, a tablet doesn't even replace most laptops... in 2011.

Will desktops disappear? Probably not, but I suspect it will get much, much, much smaller. People that need a desktop now may not need a desktop later. I know professionals who always bought Power Macs or Mac Pros, but lately have gotten either iMacs or just MacBook Pros. After a certain point, the speed is enough. Does a Photoshop junkie from the old days that required a dual G5 Power Mac really need an 8-core Mac Pro? Nope. Many get along just fine with a Core i5 MacBook Pro with external FW 800 drive and 24" calibrated monitor.

If you want a big screen, you'll always need a desktop. If you want performance, you'll always need a desktop. If you want expandability, you'll always need a desktop.
See above. BTW, my desktop is an iMac. I'll upgrade in a few years, once Thunderbolt devices are ubiquitous.

I could imagine similar dealbreakers for the users of laptops. The tablets are here, they have a niche to fill, but it's so limited imagination to think that they have to replace something in order to "win".

The only place on the internets where that mentality reigns is at Mac (or rather Apple) forums - mostly because Apple can't possibly concentrate on more than one thing at a time, so it's either the mantra of "tablets are the future" or to accept that Apple has serious limitations as a company and can make fundamental mistakes.
Give it a few years. The same migration that happened from desktops to laptops will happen from laptops to SFF laptops (eg. 11" MacBook Air) and yes, some to tablets as well.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
voodoo, I posted those Linpack scores just for kicks.

However, I think H.264 decode ability for example is WAY more important for a general use machine than general FP performance.
I realize that.. and agree, actual performance in the specified field is more important than general FP performance. However the myth that general performance is super-magical on the iPad is something many people are beginning to accept as truth. Indeed, Spheric is a good example and others who claim that "in the future" the performance of tablets will certainly be as great as any laptop or even desktop. Just give it time to "mature".

To understand in layman's terms how poorly the tablets perform in general terms, run Flash on them and see. First of all you'll need a special optimized Flash and second of all, performance isn't all that great. Yet 5 year old computers can run full-size bloated Flash just fine (except maybe Macs, but they'll still run it better than an iPad, for instance).

Am I the only one who is tired of Apple iPad evangelists trying to convince Apple Mac evangelists (such as myself) that the iPad is "the future" nana nana boo boo? I personally don't see any reason for this to be a zero sum game, but I'm convinced that if push comes to shove, tablets lose against laptops/desktops.

It comes down to this in theory: if people could choose just one device a MBP or an iPad, nine out of ten would choose the MBP, despite it's slightly less mobility.

In practice it comes down to this: one needs a Mac/PC to use one's table/iDevice. Thus every iDevice sold needs a desktop/laptop. Thus it isn't a zero sum game. At least not yet and not in the foreseeable future. Only in wild speculations and rampant guessworks. Often sold as facts.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Phileas
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
(and use a 700 dollar clapper device for a video team)
Seriously? You're coming across like an utter idiot.

This is not about replacing a $30 clapper with a $700 iPad clapper, this is about creating efficiencies that allow us to do more work in less time with fewer people. The iPad, and the tools it runs, allows us to do just that.

If all you can do is make dickwad comments, talking about stuff you clearly don't even begin to understand, then you should not even be in this conversation.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:39 PM
 
I agree with you Eug, I guess I've nothing to add to what you wrote.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Seriously? You're coming across like an utter idiot.

This is not about replacing a $30 clapper with a $700 iPad clapper, this is about creating efficiencies that allow us to do more work in less time with fewer people. The iPad, and the tools it runs, allows us to do just that.

If all you can do is make dickwad comments, talking about stuff you clearly don't even begin to understand, then you should not even be in this conversation.
Did I touch a nerve there, honeycakes? If you think you can do more work in less time with fewer people by using a 700 dollar clapper instead of a 30 dollar clapper, nobody is stopping you. Although you'd have to use some seriously creative accounting to make that add up. It's your money.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
freudling
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:48 PM
 
The term Post-PC device is stupid. Like others have said, more marketing. A "PC" is a personal computer.

Smartphones and tablets, because of their powerful software and hardware... because we're doing Email, Internet browsing, using business applications like Pages and FileMaker Pro, editing videos, creating music, installing zillions of different Apps... smartphones and tablets are themselves personal computers... "PCs". There's no need to call them Post-PC devices. They're just portable PCs.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:48 PM
 
What's a Clapper? One of those movie thingies?

This is what I think of.

     
Phileas
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Did I touch a nerve there, honeycakes? If you think you can do more work in less time with fewer people by using a 700 dollar clapper instead of a 30 dollar clapper, nobody is stopping you. Although you'd have to use some seriously creative accounting to make that add up. It's your money.
As I've said, you're talking smack about stuff you know nothing about. Nothing new there.

What the use of a software clapper does is make the production assistant's life easier and more efficient. If that software clapper, like the iPad model does, feed that information into a shot log database, then all sorts of mistakes don't happen anymore, work gets done quicker and more efficient. On smaller jobs especially this means we can reduce crew and significantly reduce time in the edit.

Reducing crew by just one body on one job for one day saves us more than double what the iPad cost us in the first place. Reducing edit time by just one hour pays for an iPad and some.

Do you get it now?
     
ort888
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Your Anus
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:02 PM
 
The iPad is a job killer!

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The iPad is a job killer!
Perfect.
     
Phileas
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
What's a Clapper? One of those movie thingies?

This is what I think of.
It's also called a slate. Electronic slates have existed for quite some time, but they were a: hideously expensive and b: had limited log functionality and c: horrible interfaces.

Here's a link to the $20.00 iPad version: Movie★Slate (Clapperboard & Shot Log) for iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad on the iTunes App Store
     
Phileas
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by the final dakar View Post
perfect.
it's a toy
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
it's a toy
Pretty much.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:13 PM
 
How well does that clapper software show up on film/video? Isn't the glare an issue, and the lack of super-brightness of the screen in daylight outside also an issue?

But then again, I'm one who hates the iPad as an e-reader. I'd rather just have paper.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
But then again, I'm one who hates the iPad as an e-reader. I'd rather just have paper.
That seems reasonable enough. A kindle is acceptable to me.
     
mduell
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
However, I think H.264 decode ability for example is WAY more important for a general use machine than general FP performance.
The H.264 decode argument isn't a good indicator because they've built into the chip some hardware to accelerate the DSP functions; you could throw a DSP card in the G4 and get the same capability.

How well does the iPad play VC-1 or anything else of comparable (or even less) complexity than H.264? RealVideo? Photoshop-like filters?

That's where general int/fp performance comes in handy; all the million things that you haven't baked DSP hardware into the chip for.
( Last edited by mduell; Mar 16, 2011 at 03:46 PM. )
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
The H.264 decode argument isn't a good indicator because they've built into the chip some hardware to accelerate the DSP functions; you could throw a DSP card in the G4 and get the same capability.
About the H.264 decoder card, I even said so in a different post. However, my point was that the G4 does not include this, which means that the A4 and A5 are superior in this regard. They were designed with 2011 habits in mind, which is why they are better suited for 2011 than a G4 is.

How well does the iPad play VC-1 or anything else of comparable (or even less) complexity than H.264? RealVideo?
Who cares?

Actually though, Tegra includes VC-1 decode. Dunno about A5.
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 16, 2011 at 03:50 PM. )
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 04:04 PM
 
In the context of the laptops replacing Power Macs discussion, I found this image amusing.

     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 05:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
There's no indication of that, even the relatively thick and power-socket connectable laptops are far from being the equivalent of a desktop PC, and that's actually something the laptop makers strive for - but in order to keep the thing portable, compromises are made. On a thin, light, battery powered tablet - the compromises are even more dramatic. There's no solution for a low power GPU, integrated into the CPU, sharing RAM with the CPU, low speed bus, low RAM etc.
Yes, there is. Currently, 50-60% of people who do anything with a computer could use a tablet and still easily be able to do the things they want to do. In five years, it'll be 90-95%. If you can't see that Apple's heading that way, then you're blind. By 2016 tablets will rule the computing landscape as far as PCs and Macs are concerned, maybe even sooner. We'll have sleek, powerful 8-core tablets running at >2GHz by then, plenty fast enough to run any media application available.

Yeah, you're selling it all right. They *have* a future, that's as far as you should go.
I'm not selling anything, I'm just smart enough to see what's coming. You may not like that future, but that's not my problem.


Can you be more vague and generic? ... in fact you're just rephrasing what Steve Jobs said. We're on a Mac forum, I'm voodoo, I KNOW WHAT STEVE SAID.
You may know what he said, but I don't. I didn't even watch the keynote, still haven't. I just know from handling the device, it's here, it's real, and it's already changing the game.

It's common courtesy not to patronize me with some evangelist mumbo jumbo to an evangelist. "in the future" and a few cents will buy me a Coke.
You seem to have abandoned courtesy yourself with this post. I'm just trying to figure out why you're so butt-hurt over it.
One thing is for certain, you have no idea what will happen in 5 years and in this conversation you'd do better to stop claiming your future-predictions are fact, mkay?
Actually, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I know the future, in this instance. It's where Apple is going, and where they go, the rest of the electronics world follows. Ask Samsung, Motorola, LG, and the rest of the phone guys, they know and they're fighting to play catch-up. Hell, even Windows 8 is going smaller and more tablet-centric, Bill and Co. aren't going to get caught with their pants down this time, because if they do it's their ass and they're out.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Actually, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I know the future, in this instance.
Aaaaand that's where your last shred of credibility went out the window. What's the point in a discussion with Nostradamus here... ? (rhetorical question, Nostro)

See you in the future!!
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Eug
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 06:04 PM
 
I doubt tablets will dominate in 5 years. But they will have a large installed base.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Aaaaand that's where your last shred of credibility went out the window. What's the point in a discussion with Nostradamus here... ? (rhetorical question, Nostro)

See you in the future!!
Overreact much? Get some Preparation H and come back when you feel better, champ.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Don Pickett
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: New York, NY, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I doubt tablets will dominate in 5 years. But they will have a large installed base.
I think we will see a steadily increasing use of them, and they will begin to replace laptops and low-end desktops. When my mom's current laptop dies, the easiest thing to do will be to replace it with whatever iPad model is current. I think we will also seem them replacing laptops as second computers: high-end desktop/laptop for work, iPad for everything else.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
vitriol on the iPad "side"
Awesome.
     
hayesk
Guest
Status:
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 09:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The tablets of today don't match nor exceed Power Macs from 10 years ago. Which was the jan. 2001 733 MHz PowerPC 7450 (G4) also available in 533 MHz dual processor model, expandable to 1.5 GB RAM. 133 MHz frontside bus. I guess the GForce3 video card isn't as advanced as the 3D thing in the A5, but it had 64 MB of dedicated VRAM, of which the A5 has zero.

In all other aspects a 10 year old PowerMac meets or exceeds the latest tablet from Apple.
So what? Ten years ago most people were doing the same thing with computers as they are doing today, with the exception of facebook.

If you happen to have computing needs beyond what the iPad can provide, then good for you. But the vast majority of people don't. The iPad takes everything people hate out of computing - non-intuitive UI, file system organization headaches, system maintenance, etc. Combine all that with the fact that most people hate using desktop operating systems, but just see them as a necessary evil to get to email, web browsing, etc., it's no wonder the iPad is a huge success. It's not hard to see that for the majority, the iPad will be what people use in the future.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 09:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Overreact much? Get some Preparation H and come back when you feel better, champ.
If by preparation H you mean HAHAHA then yeah I've already done that. Overreact much? To say that there's no point in discussing with a self proclaimed seer? That's just stating the evident. My reaction is to ignore your claims. Overreaction? Nah, just common sense.

Say this to yourself in the mirror: "Actually, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I know the future, in this instance."

See how dumb that sounds when you say it.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Awesome.
Super awesome. Tell me again how much faster the iPad is than the G4?
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
So what? Ten years ago most people were doing the same thing with computers as they are doing today, with the exception of facebook.
In a very very simplified sense, yes. Like in the sense that they sat in front of them. In actuality, no.

To put that into perspective, most people were on dial-up internet in 2001 and the rest on very slow cable/DSL. 1 MBit down was pretty darn good in 2001. Perhaps you meant 2008?
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 09:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
If by preparation H you mean HAHAHA then yeah I've already done that. Overreact much? To say that there's no point in discussing with a self proclaimed seer? That's just stating the evident. My reaction is to ignore your claims. Overreaction? Nah, just common sense.

Say this to yourself in the mirror: "Actually, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I know the future, in this instance."

See how dumb that sounds when you say it.
Dude, you're just weird when you're off your meds. Calm down, pop a couple, and go to bed.

It doesn't take a seer to realize a shift in technology. This is it. Average Joes all over the world are going to move to tablets. Sure, some enthusiasts will hold on to their desktop machines, and there will be a niche market for them, but the iPad and it's clones will be the norm. It happened in music players, phones, and now computers.

Relax, and welcome our IPS screened, multi-touch overlords.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
voodoo
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Salamanca, España
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Dude, you're just weird when you're off your meds. Calm down, pop a couple, and go to bed.

It doesn't take a seer to realize a shift in technology. This is it. Average Joes all over the world are going to move to tablets. Sure, some enthusiasts will hold on to their desktop machines, and there will be a niche market for them, but the iPad and it's clones will be the norm. It happened in music players, phones, and now computers.

Relax, and welcome our IPS screened, multi-touch overlords.
They're quite welcome! I have one of them in fact and enjoy it as much as it is worth. Their presence doesn't mean there's a shift or a major change, just that there is yet another possibility to waste use one's time.

Laptops didn't end desktops in any sense, and they live happily together now. Tablets are not going to replace desktops, though perhaps in some cases they will eat into laptop sales. They're also creating an entirely new segment because they're dependent on laptops/desktops.

It's really very simple, it's not a zero sum game. For tablets to 'win', laptops/desktops don't have to 'lose'. Take people who already have chosen a desktop (non-mobile machine). A tablet isn't going to replace that computer, not even a laptop could do that, and the tablets are even less versatile or powerful. Thus it is pretty self evident that the desktop segment will stay the same because the tablets aren't eating into desktops.

But assuming that one day tablets will be free from the tether of the desktop/laptop, it can at best only replace the laptops - and only the netbooks/MacBookAirs at that. Steve Jobs and followers can call desktops 'trucks' all they want, but desktops have been trucks for almost a decade now. That's *nothing* new and the tablets won't replace the desktops. Laptops, partially, yes.

TL;DR
Desktops are already as marginalized as they will ever be, the tablets will cut into laptops to a degree, but mostly the tablet market is a new one and independent of desktops/laptops just as iPhones don't eat into landline phones. Cell phones already did that.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 11:02 PM
 
It's voodoo time

-t
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 16, 2011, 11:23 PM
 
Bah, I'm not arguing with him, I have more important things to do. Like get pummeled on the head with throw pillows.

We'll just see what happens in five years
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:42 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,