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Wiskedjak · 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Except Baltar ran his tests again in the last episode and they came up positive.

Problem not solved.

Six said they ran all of *their* protocols.

[edit: whoops ... already covered]

mrtew · Jan 19, 2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

...strange how they just happened to set down right where at least 3-4 of the final 5 died though.

I think it's stranger how all 5 of the final 5 just happened to be on the one battlestar that accidently survived the destruction of the colonies. They must have known it would and somehow made sure that they'd be on it which makes it even weirder that Ellen didn't survive the events after that. They've certainly got some 'splaining to do.

Chuckit · Jan 19, 2009, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

I think it's stranger how all 5 of the final 5 just happened to be on the one battlestar that accidently survived the destruction of the colonies. They must have known it would and somehow made sure that they'd be on it which makes it even weirder that Ellen didn't survive the events after that. They've certainly got some 'splaining to do.

Eh, it's weirder to me that Tigh and Ellen managed to stay together for 2000 years, right up until he killed her. There has to be some kind of programming involved to make Saul not fall in love with that cute redhead at his high school the next time they're reborn.

lavar78 · Jan 19, 2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Eh, it's weirder to me that Tigh and Ellen managed to stay together for 2000 years, right up until he killed her. There has to be some kind of programming involved to make Saul not fall in love with that cute redhead at his high school the next time they're reborn.

I think it echos the story of DC's Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman, who are destined to be meet, fall in love, die, and be resurrected for eternity.

Eug · Jan 19, 2009, 03:47 PM

Dee: That was an awesome scene.

Ellen numba 5? Meh. I've always hated her character. Hopefully they really make her more interesting now, because the flirty slut routine got pretty tedious fast.

Starbuck - WTF? It made sense, and I was somewhat expecting that... except for the part that she isn't a Cylon.

Whether the hair burned this time was not made clear.

Wiskedjak · Jan 19, 2009, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

I think it's stranger how all 5 of the final 5 just happened to be on the one battlestar that accidently survived the destruction of the colonies. They must have known it would and somehow made sure that they'd be on it which makes it even weirder that Ellen didn't survive the events after that. They've certainly got some 'splaining to do.

I think Tigh and Tyrol were the only two on the Galactica at the time of the attack. Ellen turned up somewhere in the fleet after the attack and Anders was on Earth until Starbuck went back for the Arrow of Apollo. Do we know where Tory came from? She's not military, so I don't think she was on Galactica until she was hired as the President's aide.

Salty · Jan 19, 2009, 03:57 PM

I think honestly the show is just being wrapped up as best they can but they're doing a bad job of things. The set up was great, the universe was great, but it just has dragged on. They tried to do one big plot arch like Babylon 5, but where B5 had stuff from season 1 finally being flushed out in the last season, BSG is just having crap from all over tie in in weird ways that don't really make sense.

Wiskedjak · Jan 19, 2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

I think honestly the show is just being wrapped up as best they can but they're doing a bad job of things. The set up was great, the universe was great, but it just has dragged on. They tried to do one big plot arch like Babylon 5, but where B5 had stuff from season 1 finally being flushed out in the last season, BSG is just having crap from all over tie in in weird ways that don't really make sense.

Agreed. Ellen as one of the Final Five just feels like they pulled a name out of a hat.

powerbook867 · Jan 19, 2009, 04:07 PM

I'm going to hell because I laughed.. wow. Worst placement of an ad... ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW2_2ihIuzI

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 19, 2009, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Agreed. Ellen as one of the Final Five just feels like they pulled a name out of a hat.

Guess what, they ALL were. They didn't even come up with the idea of the FF until they had to put Baltar on the Cylon Ship and knew it would be stupid for him not to see all models just to hide it from the audience.

They chose Ellen because she has a strong connection to Tye and him killing her makes it cooler. No matter who it was nobody would have been happy.

Here is a funny screwup my friend found in the webisode.... When 8 hacked into the raptors Nav computer to find the corrupt block of data she mentioned the block number. Since my friend is a chip programmer he could calculate that the entire nav memory was only 64k

Must have been the first Macintosh running the thing, no wonder they got lost

Salty · Jan 19, 2009, 04:10 PM

at that point I really felt like they hadn't gone into this with much forethought. Honestly I think it would have been better if it ended as season 4.0 ended.

Chuckit · Jan 19, 2009, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Agreed. Ellen as one of the Final Five just feels like they pulled a name out of a hat.

According to Ron Moore, she's the only one they didn't pull out of a hat. Apparently they picked Tyrol, Tigh, Tory and Anders, and Moore said, "Oh, the last one should be Ellen. That would make such a great plot arc for Tigh."

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 19, 2009, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

According to Ron Moore, she's the only one they didn't pull out of a hat. Apparently they picked Tyrol, Tigh, Tory and Anders, and Moore said, "Oh, the last one should be Ellen. That would make such a great plot arc for Tigh."

"Over the course of the third season, Ellen came and went in my thinking in terms of who the final five were. It probably wasn’t until we settled on the final four that I knew it was Ellen. When we got to the final four -- Tigh, Anders, Tory and Tyrol -- then it felt like, “and Ellen has to be the fifth.” Because Tigh being revealed as a Cylon was such a profound shift in that character, such a big leap for the show, that it felt really natural that she was also a Cylon.

And he had killed her for collaborating with the Cylons! There were layers and depths to that I felt were really fascinating, about guilt and blame and memory and responsibility, and I just really liked the way that all tied together.

We had a writers’ retreat between Seasons 3 and 4, we talked about it explicitly then. I think at that point, we revisited [the Ellen idea]. We said, “OK, we assume it’s Ellen, but let’s not be married to that. Let’s be open to any other possibilities.” We talked about other possibilities, but none of them had the same resonance that Ellen had, so we came back to it.

I think in the conversations where we decided the final four, the notion [of Ellen as the fifth] was at least posited then, and if not, it was talked relatively soon thereafter.

So in writing Season 4, you had a semi-solid idea that it would be Ellen?

Yeah. As we went into Season 4, we had the writers retreat over the hiatus, we talked about what the general storyline was of the last season, we talked specifically about the first half of Season 4 and we talked about it being Ellen and getting to the place where we would reveal it to be Ellen."

starman · Jan 19, 2009, 07:12 PM

The more I think about it, the more I dislike D's suicide. So out of character. Is RM supposed to make us believe that they're SO distraught that the whole fleet's going to off themselves?

I don't buy it.

Chuckit · Jan 19, 2009, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by starman

The more I think about it, the more I dislike D's suicide. So out of character. Is RM supposed to make us believe that they're SO distraught that the whole fleet's going to off themselves?

I don't buy it.

I buy it. These people lead really lousy lives. Earth has been their hope for so many years, and then they found it and it was not only not what they needed, but essentially a step back into the cataclysm they'd escaped just a couple of years earlier. Obviously not everyone is going to off themselves like that, but it really makes sense that some would.

lavar78 · Jan 19, 2009, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I buy it. These people lead really lousy lives. Earth has been their hope for so many years, and then they found it and it was not only not what they needed, but essentially a step back into the cataclysm they'd escaped just a couple of years earlier. Obviously not everyone is going to off themselves like that, but it really makes sense that some would.

Agreed. Sadly, a friend of mine killed himself under similar circumstances. No jokes, please.

starman · Jan 19, 2009, 07:43 PM

So....they go somewhere else. Kobol? Another place?

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 19, 2009, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by starman

The more I think about it, the more I dislike D's suicide. So out of character. Is RM supposed to make us believe that they're SO distraught that the whole fleet's going to off themselves?

I don't buy it.

All of her family is dead, her boyfriend got killed, her marriage failed, the only thing she looked forward to was earth and now that dream is dead. I buy it.

Chuckit · Jan 19, 2009, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by starman

So....they go somewhere else. Kobol? Another place?

So your objection is that this suicide seems like an emotional reaction to her feelings of hopelessness and loss rather than something entirely logical?

starman · Jan 19, 2009, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So your objection is that this suicide seems like an emotional reaction to her feelings of hopelessness and loss rather than something entirely logical?

See that's the thing....it's RM forcing an emotional response out of us because he can't think of anywhere else to go. The whole FLEET is depressed, but Dee can't take it? I can think of 1000 more reasons why Starbuck would lose it before Dee did.

dzp111 · Jan 19, 2009, 08:13 PM

Is it possible that D's suicide had nothing to do with emotions? I think she 'had to' for some yet unknown reason.

Eriamjh · Jan 19, 2009, 08:15 PM

So is Thrace a Cylon or not?

jokell82 · Jan 19, 2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by starman

See that's the thing....it's RM forcing an emotional response out of us because he can't think of anywhere else to go. The whole FLEET is depressed, but Dee can't take it? I can think of 1000 more reasons why Starbuck would lose it before Dee did.

So you're upset that Dee's breaking point is different than Starbuck's? Dee's suicide made PERFECT sense to me. Starbuck doing that wouldn't, as she's a fighter. Dee, not so much.

Thorzdad · Jan 19, 2009, 08:23 PM

I assumed Dee killed herself at that moment because she wanted her happiness to be the last thing she knew. She didn't want to experience that blissful moment as it became overwhelmed over the next few days by the ongoing malaise/depression.

One thing that has been rolling around in my head...Dee babysat Hera right before Apollo asked her to meet her. Is it possible she learned something from Hera? I mean, what was the reason to have that babysitting scene unless it was to inform some future event? Maybe Hera said something or did something that we aren't privy to yet?

And, yeah, killing-off Dee sucks. Makes as much sense as Gaeta losing his leg. It just seems like senseless mutilation of your creation. Kind of the way each Star Trek movie has to blow-up, wreck, or shoot-up the Enterprise.

Chuckit · Jan 19, 2009, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by starman

See that's the thing....it's RM forcing an emotional response out of us because he can't think of anywhere else to go. The whole FLEET is depressed, but Dee can't take it? I can think of 1000 more reasons why Starbuck would lose it before Dee did.

Your response, like this was senseless and illogical? That's how it was supposed to feel.

mrtew · Jan 19, 2009, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

...It just seems like senseless mutilation of your creation. Kind of the way each Star Trek movie has to blow-up, wreck, or shoot-up the Enterprise.

oh god you're right.... they are REALLY going to mess up that amazing original enterprise in the new movie aren't they? I bet it will be ripped into four separate pieces and each one will be destroyed in ever larger explosions.

Don Pickett · Jan 19, 2009, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

I think honestly the show is just being wrapped up as best they can. . .

This is just the nature of TV writing.

ThinkInsane · Jan 19, 2009, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

I assumed Dee killed herself at that moment because she wanted her happiness to be the last thing she knew. She didn't want to experience that blissful moment as it became overwhelmed over the next few days by the ongoing malaise/depression.

One thing that has been rolling around in my head...Dee babysat Hera right before Apollo asked her to meet her. Is it possible she learned something from Hera? I mean, what was the reason to have that babysitting scene unless it was to inform some future event? Maybe Hera said something or did something that we aren't privy to yet?

And, yeah, killing-off Dee sucks. Makes as much sense as Gaeta losing his leg. It just seems like senseless mutilation of your creation. Kind of the way each Star Trek movie has to blow-up, wreck, or shoot-up the Enterprise.

I think you are probably spot on about what the writers intended about Dee. I don't think Hera said anything to her though. I think it just goes back to the happy memories thing. She had no children of her own, but probably wanted a family someday. There's only two kids they show on Galatica, Hera and the chief's kid. Both half cylon, so what are you gonna do? I don't think it was meant to be significant outside of Dee's demise.

I'm no board certified expert in archeologism or anything, but I watch the Discovery channel and I'm having a hard time accepting that after 2000 years bodies buried in wet, sandy, earth would yield such nice, intact skeletons. Not saying there's any importance to that observation in regards to the show, just one of those little things that irks me.

Shaddim · Jan 20, 2009, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Question also is did they just come back in the last 60-30 years or have they been coming and going for 2000 years.

In regards to earth does that make us Cylons and the war is going to happen here or are we the result of perhaps thousands of years after BSG got there.

Yes, they keep coming back, and at some point in their adult years they gain an awareness of the cycle (it would seem).

Personally, I think the Earth cyclons are what was left of "humanity", maybe they killed us all and took over the planet, or maybe there was a plague that destroyed all the humans after we had created advanced AIs. BSG is set in the future, perhaps a few hundred years.

Shaddim · Jan 20, 2009, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I kinda get the feeling that Baltar and Starbuck are the same type of entity. Perhaps Baltar died in the MiniSeries during the nuclear blast and came back without knowing it just like starbuck did.

Hmm, such as one being some type of "avatar" of life and the other of death. Or, are they two sides of the same power (Shiva)?

analogue SPRINKLES · Jan 20, 2009, 01:17 AM

Perhaps the tin cans that destroyed earth weren't made by the Cylons on earth but came from somewhere else?

Shaddim · Jan 20, 2009, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by starman

The more I think about it, the more I dislike D's suicide. So out of character. Is RM supposed to make us believe that they're SO distraught that the whole fleet's going to off themselves?

I don't buy it.

One of my friends tried to commit suicide after having a fantastic day, a few weeks after his wife died. He was unsuccessful, but he did explain it to me. He said that he didn't believe that he would ever feel happier and it seemed like it was the right time to go.

Wiskedjak · Jan 20, 2009, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Yes, they keep coming back, and at some point in their adult years they gain an awareness of the cycle (it would seem).

Personally, I think the Earth cyclons are what was left of "humanity", maybe they killed us all and took over the planet, or maybe there was a plague that destroyed all the humans after we had created advanced AIs. BSG is set in the future, perhaps a few hundred years.

I think BSG is saying that we are Cylons, and only *think* we're human.

Gankdawg · Jan 20, 2009, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by dzp111

Is it possible that D's suicide had nothing to do with emotions? I think she 'had to' for some yet unknown reason.

She thinks she is a Cylon and will be reborn. The ultimate Cylon test.

Shaddim · Jan 20, 2009, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I think BSG is saying that we are Cylons, and only *think* we're human.

I think we would have discovered our connectivity abilities by now, since all cylons seem to have some type of fiber optic or ethernet port in their forearms.

Eug · Jan 20, 2009, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Perhaps the tin cans that destroyed earth weren't made by the Cylons on earth but came from somewhere else?

I think they're from planet Australia.

Wiskedjak · Jan 20, 2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

I think we would have discovered our connectivity abilities by now, since all cylons seem to have some type of fiber optic or ethernet port in their forearms.

Short of hearing the Music, the Final Five haven't exhibited any evidence of connectivity abilities and didn't seem to have noticed any ethernet ports in their forearms, as evidenced by the fact that apparently for most of their lives, they thought they were human.

Shaddim · Jan 20, 2009, 04:15 PM

Or, they haven't tried to jam wires in their arms yet.

But I do see the point, they are different from "regular" cylons in many other ways.

goMac · Jan 20, 2009, 05:31 PM

Or maybe actual humans did exist at one point. We built the Cylons, and got wiped out in similar events long ago.

Chuckit · Jan 20, 2009, 05:43 PM

The Cylons on Earth built humans, then we turned on our masters and left.

Wiskedjak · Jan 20, 2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The Cylons on Earth built humans, then we turned on our masters and left ...

... to start a Human society on Caprica that built Cylons which turned on the Humans and left to start a Cylon society on Earth that built Humans which turned on the Cylons and left to found a Human society on Caprica ...

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if this turned out to be the big reveal

Don Pickett · Jan 20, 2009, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

... to start a Human society on Caprica that built Cylons which turned on the Humans and left to start a Cylon society on Earth that built Humans which turned on the Cylons and left to found a Human society on Caprica ...

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if this turned out to be the big reveal

I think it may be something like this: a continuing cycle of creation and destruction, which this bunch of humans and cylons have the chance to break this time around. And I imagine that somehow Thrace is the pivot on which it all turns: she has to be the one who catalyzes the decision to either start the process again or do something different.

lavar78 · Jan 20, 2009, 08:22 PM

Are we overlooking the idea that, like the 13th colony, there could be a 13th Cylon?

Don Pickett · Jan 20, 2009, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by lavar78

Are we overlooking the idea that, like the 13th colony, there could be a 13th Cylon?

I doubt it: they're pretty invested in 12 of 'em.

I think the big thing to be ironed out is the relationship between humans, skinjobs and the final five. I wouldn't be surprised they're somehow more related than we've seen so far.

lavar78 · Jan 20, 2009, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I doubt it: they're pretty invested in 12 of 'em.

I'm not so sure. The flashbacks all but proved there were more of these Cylon models than the five we know. How else are they going to explain the two Starbucks if she isn't another Cylon? Cloning?

starman · Jan 20, 2009, 10:08 PM

If it's a cycle, wouldn't someone have unearthed relics from the past civilization?

mrtew · Jan 20, 2009, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by lavar78

Are we overlooking the idea that, like the 13th colony, there could be a 13th Cylon?

Why would there be only 12 or 13? There were billions on Earth... why would those 5 clueless dorks have been the sole survivors and how would they end up being revered by the other 7 and all the raiders and centurions?

lavar78 · Jan 20, 2009, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Why would there be only 12 or 13? There were billions on Earth... why would those 5 clueless dorks have been the sole survivors and how would they end up being revered by the other 7 and all the raiders and centurions?

Search me. I was just throwing it out there. Seeing 2 Starbucks leads me to believe that (1) she's a Cylon, (2) she's a clone, or (3) the line between humans and Cylons isn't what we thought it was.

Eug · Jan 20, 2009, 11:26 PM

For all we know, that corpse was a crispy orangutan with a blonde wig. In fact, that seems more likely than a magical burn that specifically spares hair.

Wiskedjak · Jan 20, 2009, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I doubt it: they're pretty invested in 12 of 'em.

I think the big thing to be ironed out is the relationship between humans, skinjobs and the final five. I wouldn't be surprised they're somehow more related than we've seen so far.

Well, we have 12 known different Cylons ... and one Cylon god