[Kevin]

Some more

Pliny the Younger

Pliny was an author and administrator who served the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called up onto deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

He went on the say that he also, "made them curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do."


Lucian of Samosata

Lucian was a Greek satirist in the latter half of the second century (~190 AD).

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account."



Flavius Josephus

Josephus was a Jewish historian who lived from 37 AD to 97 AD. Josephus wrote his major work, the Antiquities, around 90 AD.

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
- Translation from Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem


Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas

Suetonius was the chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (AD 177-138) and had access to the imperial records.

First Mention from "The Life of Claudius":

"Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city."

The word "Chrestus" is a variant spelling of Christ. This event is referred to in Acts 18:2

Second Mention from "The Lives of the Caesars":

"After the great fire at Rome… Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief."

The Talmud

The Talmud was a collection of Jewish oral tradition that was written down between 70 AD and 200 AD.

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

Note: The term "hanged" is a variant of "crucified".

I would say... those things above written. Those are the truths about Jesus. Written down soon after his demise.

They pretty much go hand in hand with what the Bible says happened.

And all of them are non-biblical sources.

So there is no doubt that not only did such a man exist. That he was crucified for his beliefs.

[BRussell]

There are no contemporaneous Roman records of Jesus. There's no doubt that followers of Jesus existed, and historians were aware of them. I mean, come on: Not too long afterwards, Rome itself became officially Christian. To me, the existence of Christians is pretty damn good evidence that Jesus existed - but there's no other contemporaneous direct evidence.

That's not surprising, given that he was a nobody to the Romans. It would be highly suspicious if someone claimed the Romans kept Jesus' name and history, when they didn't keep the names and histories of the other bazillion nobodies they slaughtered.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Seems to fit the term "anti-establishment" to me.

we'll see when he comes back with/without hippie hair or a modern haircut

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

we'll see when he comes back with/without hippie hair or a modern haircut

Depending on who you ask, "he's" already been back for quite some time.

[Chongo]

he wore the hair style of the dominant culture. (Rome) The images of him with long hair are inaccurate

[- - e r i k - -]

...as is his skintone

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

he wore the hair style of the dominant culture. (Rome) The images of him with long hair are inaccurate

Yeah in all the photos I've seen he has a crewcut.

[Chongo]

He is most certainly dark skinned, as were most Hebrew at the time

[Face Ache]

Nah, Jesus was way sexier than that.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

He is most certainly dark skinned, as were most Hebrew at the time

They were? Says who?

I read somewhere that the Buddha could touch his knees with his hands while standing up straight. That would be an interesting physical feature for a religious figure. (Or a basketball player.)

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

He is most certainly dark skinned, as were most Hebrew at the time

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

They were? Says who?

Forensic Anthropologists (i.e. the TV show "Bones")
CNN.com - From science and computers, a new face of Jesus - Dec. 26, 2002

As to his hair: from the CNN article

They turned to the Bible to determine the length of his hair. In the New Testament, "would Paul (one of the apostles) have written, 'If a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him' if Jesus Christ had had long hair?" the article speculates.

[lpkmckenna]

Of course, Paul never met Jesus (except in a vision). So he wouldn't know. And his ignorance of some Jewish traditions is apparent, since holy men like Nazites were expected not to cut their hair. Were they disgracing themselves?

The "olive skin" thing is wild speculation. We don't know his skin tone.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

A person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles.

Seems to fit the term "anti-establishment" to me.

funny how current christans are not as jesus was...was that an "L" word i read?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The "olive skin" thing is wild speculation. We don't know his skin tone.

So what? There is not any reason to believe he was white. The portrayal above is infinitely more likely to be true than the "angelic white hippie" image popularised in Western medieval art.

[- - e r i k - -]

Besides, he was clearly Chinese:

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

funny how current christans are not as jesus was...was that an "L" word i read?

I think Libertarian would be more like it. God gave us free will to choose to do as we wish. Drink to excess, do drugs, have random sex, kill, steal, just be prepared for the consequences of those choices. If you have sex with someone outside of a monogamous relationship, don't complain when you get herpes or some other VD. If you drink too much; expect your liver to shrivel and die.

person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles.
Seems to fit the term "anti-establishment" to me

USCCB - NAB - Matthew 5
Sounds more like an anarchist to me. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 (the Beatitudes) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Helping your fellow man is not a "liberal" ideology, Having the government take from one to give to the other is.(From each according to his ability, .. you know the rest) The libertarian ideology is to take our own money and give to organizations that will help those who need help.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

funny how current christans are not as jesus was...was that an "L" word i read?

Sure we are. We certainly aren't the norm. I mean TRUE Christians.

[Kevin]

"They turned to the Bible to determine the length of his hair. In the New Testament, "would Paul (one of the apostles) have written, 'If a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him' if Jesus Christ had had long hair?" the article speculates."

Women weren't supposed to cut their hair, and men's hair weren't supposed to be as long as a woman's.

I doubt Jesus had as long of hair as if often portrayed, but it wasn't short. I am sure he couldn't afford monthly trimmings.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

So what? There is not any reason to believe he was white. The portrayal above is infinitely more likely to be true than the "angelic white hippie" image popularised in Western medieval art.

No, not really. You're just making that claim up.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Besides, he was clearly Chinese:

and one of his apostles was black:


Alex

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

"They turned to the Bible to determine the length of his hair. In the New Testament, "would Paul (one of the apostles) have written, 'If a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him' if Jesus Christ had had long hair?" the article speculates."

Women weren't supposed to cut their hair, and men's hair weren't supposed to be as long as a woman's.

I doubt Jesus had as long of hair as if often portrayed, but it wasn't short. I am sure he couldn't afford monthly trimmings.

but now that he's in heaven, he can afford to have a new do and a shave right?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

No, not really. You're just making that claim up.

Was that supposed to be a serious rebuttal or were you just being ironic?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

but now that he's in heaven, he can afford to have a new do and a shave right?

ha ha hee hee... hum. That wasn't even funny.

And I love me a good Jesus pun. Like those posters of Jesus playing basketball as you see him grabbing said ball from going past the boundaries and under it is says "Jesus Saves"

Funny stuff. Or the classic Pinocchio one.