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"Porn is for losers"? But what about Birth Control and Vasectomies, are they cool? (Page 4)
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 16, 2016, 03:43 PM
 
Oh for your curiosity? Seems like a worthwhile reason to ask someone about their possible marital troubles.

"I know you're hurting right now, but I gotta know..."
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 16, 2016, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh for your curiosity? Seems like a worthwhile reason to ask someone about their possible marital troubles.

"I know you're hurting right now, but I gotta know..."
Except I have no idea if there is even a reason for him to be hurting. I wonder how I might go about discovering such a reason.

You're taking a perfectly innocent question and making out like I was looking to revel in someone's grief. I don't pretend that anyone here has that high an opinion of me, but nor would I have assumed anyone thought so little.

So anyway, how about you go **** yourself?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Jawbone54
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Sep 19, 2016, 02:59 PM
 
Sorry it's taken me several days to respond.

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
If you want to make policy by looking at anecdotes, it's a great policy. If you want to actually look at numbers, it's a terrible policy.

Want abortions to not happen? Great! Support comprehensive sex ed and remove the culture of shame around sexual activity before marriage so that when kids have sex (like they ALWAYS HAVE and ALWAYS WILL) they are both educated and prepared for it.
I'm a strong advocate for comprehensive sex education in schools, so long as it's not making ethical judgments of any kind, secular or religious. Just give us the facts. Help kids to know unprotected sex is a great way to make your life much more difficult far too early.

As for abstinence teaching, I don't expect the schools to do it. I expect religious institutions and families to do so, considering it aligns with their value system.

I'm in agreement with you that Christians do perhaps the worst job possible arguing these points on social media. We share the worst memes, voice the harshest opinions, never look at counter-arguments, and generally do ourselves a disservice.

If you reduce unwanted pregnancies, you reduce abortions. There are tried and tested EXTREMELY effective methods for reducing unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, they require acknowledging that a fairly significant number of people will have sex before they're married.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/sc...cess.html?_r=0

Abortions dropped by 42%. FORTY-TWO PERCENT. What's the success rate of holding protests and shouting at helpless people already in fragile condition? What's the success rate of defunding Planned Parenthood? Oh that's right, doubled maternal deaths.

I've said it before - what do you want: Abortions to be illegal? Or abortions not to happen? Those are different goals with different strategies and if what you REALLY care about is reducing the number of abortions that happen, you'll have to rethink your strategy.

edit: Sorry for the rant, I just watched a terrible "Abortion argument destroyed in six minutes" video one of my Facebook friends posted last night and I've been fuming over how as Christians we're totally missing the mark in this whole debate.
I'm not going to get into a several-page, in depth abortion discussion on 'NN. I know that sounds like I'm ducking the issue, but a long time ago, I ruffled some feathers unnecessarily, so I resolved to not dive too deeply into it in the future. I'm going to limit my thoughts to this post.

Brief personal stance:
- Don't throw people under the bus if they've had an abortion. Treat them with kindness. Don't demonize them.
- Don't protest or support protests in front of abortion clinics. It's just an attempt to place guilt on the women walking in, and does absolutely no good.
- Work toward the eventual elimination of the need for abortions. The truth is that wise decision-making (spurred primarily by education) will get us closer to that goal. I think nearly everyone would agree that abortion isn't a great thing; we just have to work towards the goal of making them unnecessary.
- I do believe there are often emotional consequences for the mother that get overlooked. We should do a better job of helping them protect themselves beforehand by making birth-control widely available, encouraging them to use it, and educating both men and women on when it is and is not advisable to pursue a sexual encounter (though there will always be many who won't — we are human, after all)

---

One thing I don't often hear in these discussions is that many forms of birth control carry side effects that greatly affect some women. My wife becomes incredibly anxious and depressed while on the pill, so she got off of it after our second child was born. Our relationship has improved tremendously, but it served as a reminder that we need some new alternatives. I hope medicine gets us closer.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 19, 2016, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I don't pretend that anyone here has that high an opinion of me, but nor would I have assumed anyone thought so little.
I'm glad I could enlighten you as to at least one thing.
     
Laminar
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Sep 19, 2016, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Brief personal stance:


To have to make that choice is a horrible thing, often made worse by the circumstances that person/couple is in and the judgement surrounding the decision. It's rare to see American conservatives in support of measures that will actually improve the situation, like comprehensive sex ed or free access to birth control and women's health care - things that are proven to reduce unwanted pregnancies and maternal deaths.

I'll officially come out against the pill. Bad side effects, and it's ridiculous that its potency is reduced by taking it at the wrong time of day. To add to that, you don't know when it's "active." If you missed a day or two, how long do you have to be back on it before you're safe? If you were sick and couldn't keep anything down, or if you took antibiotics, how long until it's working again? With an implant, IUD, or shot, you do it and it's done, no questions. With condoms, you can see it working. With the pill, it's all magic.
     
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Sep 19, 2016, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'll officially come out against the pill. Bad side effects, and it's ridiculous that its potency is reduced by taking it at the wrong time of day. To add to that, you don't know when it's "active." If you missed a day or two, how long do you have to be back on it before you're safe? If you were sick and couldn't keep anything down, or if you took antibiotics, how long until it's working again? With an implant, IUD, or shot, you do it and it's done, no questions. With condoms, you can see it working. With the pill, it's all magic.
Strong side effects have become ever more rare. Plus, there are plenty of positive side effects. Two friends of mine used to take the pill mostly for those. Of course, just like with any medication there are women who react adversely to it, but overall it has become an extremely safe drug. You are right that at least as far as contraception goes, it is important take it on time, though. If you take it responsibly, it is very effective.
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Sep 20, 2016, 12:00 PM
 
One of my coworkers was called home because his kids couldn't wake his wife. She had developed blood clots. The cause? Her oral contraceptives had a bad interaction with other medication she had started to take. You can bag on Natural Family Planning methods all you want. They don't have the side affects of hormonal contraceptives, nor the elevated risk of cancer.
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Jawbone54
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Sep 20, 2016, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
One of my coworkers was called home because his kids couldn't wake his wife. She had developed blood clots. The cause? Her oral contraceptives had a bad interaction with other medication she had started to take. You can bag on Natural Family Planning methods all you want. They don't have the side affects of hormonal contraceptives, nor the elevated risk of cancer.
Holy moly...

Is she okay?
     
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Sep 20, 2016, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Holy moly...

Is she okay?
Yes. She's in her early thirties. She was in the hospital for about a week. I asked him what happened and he said her BC pills interacted with medication her doctor put her on. I left it at that.
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Laminar
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Sep 20, 2016, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You can bag on Natural Family Planning methods all you want. They don't have the side affects of hormonal contraceptives, nor the elevated risk of cancer.
Unfortunately, NFP's main side effect is pregnancy.
     
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Sep 20, 2016, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Unfortunately, NFP's main side effect is pregnancy.
For those who have no willpower.
45/47
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 20, 2016, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Unfortunately, NFP's main side effect is pregnancy.
You mean the gift of life?
     
Jawbone54
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Sep 20, 2016, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
For those who have no willpower.
Despite being married 10 years...

     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 20, 2016, 06:17 PM
 
It's not the process that's flawed, you're flawed!
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 21, 2016, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Despite being married 10 years...
Tell me about it, I'm a caveman WICT sex.

Her: "Hey, wanna romp?"
Me: *chases her to any room with a locking door*

I'm fixed again though, which is still the best form of BC.
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Chongo
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Sep 21, 2016, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post


To have to make that choice is a horrible thing, often made worse by the circumstances that person/couple is in and the judgement surrounding the decision. It's rare to see American conservatives in support of measures that will actually improve the situation, like comprehensive sex ed or free access to birth control and women's health care - things that are proven to reduce unwanted pregnancies and maternal deaths.

I'll officially come out against the pill. Bad side effects, and it's ridiculous that its potency is reduced by taking it at the wrong time of day. To add to that, you don't know when it's "active." If you missed a day or two, how long do you have to be back on it before you're safe? If you were sick and couldn't keep anything down, or if you took antibiotics, how long until it's working again? With an implant, IUD, or shot, you do it and it's done, no questions. With condoms, you can see it working. With the pill, it's all magic.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's not the process that's flawed, you're flawed!
Sounds like it to me. Take it at the wrong time or forget altogether, breaks, dislodges, etc.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Despite being married 10 years...

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Tell me about it, I'm a caveman WICT sex.

Her: "Hey, wanna romp?"
Me: *chases her to any room with a locking door*

I'm fixed again though, which is still the best form of BC.
If you don't want kids and want baby free sex, sterilization is the only guaranteed method.
45/47
     
subego
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Sep 22, 2016, 10:56 AM
 
Is that church legal?
     
Jawbone54
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Sep 22, 2016, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is that church legal?
Which church?
     
Chongo
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Sep 22, 2016, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is that church legal?
No.
Contraception and Sterilization | Catholic Answers

BTW, My orders from CA today was coffee and a Boston Market meal for breakfast.
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subego
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Sep 22, 2016, 10:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Which church?
Any church you choose.

I guess I had the Christian ones in mind.
     
Laminar
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Sep 23, 2016, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
If you don't want kids and want baby free sex, sterilization is the only guaranteed method.
I know I've linked this article at least two other times, but you seem to keep missing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...ontrol_methods

Male sterilization has a 0.15% failure rate, female sterilization is 0.26% to 0.5%. Compare that to the 0.05% of Implanon or 0.2% of the hormonal IUD and you'll see that sterilization is neither guaranteed nor even the most effective method.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2016, 11:14 AM
 
I won't say I'm a denier or anything, but sterilizations reversing themselves is something I've always had a little trouble swallowing.
     
Laminar
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Sep 23, 2016, 11:18 AM
 
I think there's a relevant Jurassic Park quote.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2016, 12:07 PM
 
You're going to make me put on the foil hat, aren't you.

Okay, fine.

Which sounds like a more probable cause of failure? The surgeon botched the job (you didn't quite sever that one), or parts wholly reconnect themselves.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2016, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You're going to make me put on the foil hat, aren't you.

Okay, fine.

Which sounds like a more probable cause of failure? The surgeon botched the job (you didn't quite sever that one), or parts wholly reconnect themselves.
Isn't that the point? More human error involved in surgery than an IUD. Hence, one is less reliable.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2016, 04:18 PM
 
If that's the point then I'm happy with it.

I think a useful (though perhaps unknowable) piece of data would be the failure rate not counting human error.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2016, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If that's the point then I'm happy with it.

I think a useful (though perhaps unknowable) piece of data would be the failure rate not counting human error.
Immaculate conceptions?

I'm not sure I see how its useful. I think it's logical to assume it'd be more effective if done correctly but reality is that human error can not be avoided at the present time.
     
Laminar
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Sep 23, 2016, 04:42 PM
 
Failed Vasectomy or Vasectomies - Vasectomy Failure | The Turek Clinic

1. Unprotected sex too soon after the procedure means there's still live sperm in the tubes somewhere
2. Determined sperm find their way, busting through the block and scar tissue. Some techniques lower this possibility, but it cannot be entirely eliminated (dude claims 1/1500 for his technique, which is 0.0007% failure)
3. Botched operation
     
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Sep 23, 2016, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Failed Vasectomy or Vasectomies - Vasectomy Failure | The Turek Clinic

1. Unprotected sex too soon after the procedure means there's still live sperm in the tubes somewhere
2. Determined sperm find their way, busting through the block and scar tissue. Some techniques lower this possibility, but it cannot be entirely eliminated (dude claims 1/1500 for his technique, which is 0.0007% failure)
3. Botched operation
A gonadectomy solves that problem.
45/47
     
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Sep 23, 2016, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think a useful (though perhaps unknowable) piece of data would be the failure rate not counting human error.
How would that be useful?
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subego
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Sep 23, 2016, 07:53 PM
 
Failure rate vs. failure rate do to human error is a useful comparison, no?
     
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Sep 23, 2016, 10:19 PM
 
There's never been a confirmed case of those tubes regrowing back together, AFAIK, and that's something I researched thoroughly before having it done. When I asked my doc he looked at me like I was a nutter for even considering it.
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Sep 25, 2016, 06:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Failure rate vs. failure rate do to human error is a useful comparison, no?
I don't think you can even separate the two here. And one crucial factor with birth control and many other things is how difficult or easy something is to use or implement. Assume there is a new form of birth control that, if used correctly, works 100 %. But employing this new method of birth control involved 15 complicated steps, in order, and for them to be effective you'd need to perform each step perfectly for it to work. Then you'd for sure have a higher failure rate compared to a method where you only need two simple steps. The failure rate of implementation is part of the overall failure rate. That's why implants have a higher success rate than the pill.

Moreover, I reckon that, if implemented perfectly, many methods of birth control would probably reach 100 % or very, very close to that. (Statistically, you'd never be able to exclude a small failure rate, even if all of your test subjects do not get pregnant. The size of this window depends on the size of the trial) So even if you are able to compare these hypothetical failure rates, what do they tell you?
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Sep 25, 2016, 10:31 AM
 
Seriously, you get snipped and a month later they test to see if you have any sperm in your semen. If not, you're done, and can't impregnate anyone unless you get the tubes reattached, which is complicated (and twice as painful) to have done, and fails as often as not. A successful vasectomy is the safest, and most foolproof, form of BC there is (unless your wife is sleeping around, but then you have worse problems to worry about).
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Sep 25, 2016, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don't think you can even separate the two here.
I did mention it was potentially unknowable.

I find it useful when it comes to the question of Terminator grade sperm bursting through one vas, apparently swimming around free in your nutsack, and instead of going wherever with their newly found freedom, they chew their way right back into another one.

In the dark.
     
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Sep 25, 2016, 02:28 PM
 
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Sep 27, 2016, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post

1. Unprotected sex too soon after the procedure means there's still live sperm in the tubes somewhere
2. Determined sperm find their way, busting through the block and scar tissue. Some techniques lower this possibility, but it cannot be entirely eliminated (dude claims 1/1500 for his technique, which is 0.0007% failure)
3. Botched operation
I personally know a guy who impregnated his wife two to three months after his vasectomy. Reason: He had a third spermatic duct, which the operating doctor did not see.
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Sep 27, 2016, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Powerbook View Post
I personally know a guy who impregnated his wife two to three months after his vasectomy. Reason: He had a third spermatic duct, which the operating doctor did not see.
Porn would have found that out

I have no idea what that means

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Sep 27, 2016, 07:16 PM
 
Love the title change. Spoiler alert: That's for losers too
     
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Sep 30, 2016, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There's never been a confirmed case of those tubes regrowing back together
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Failed Vasectomy or Vasectomies - Vasectomy Failure | The Turek Clinic

2. Determined sperm find their way, busting through the block and scar tissue. Some techniques lower this possibility, but it cannot be entirely eliminated (dude claims 1/1500 for his technique, which is 0.0007% failure)
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Seriously, you get snipped and a month later they test to see if you have any sperm in your semen. If not, you're done, and can't impregnate anyone unless you get the tubes reattached, which is complicated (and twice as painful) to have done, and fails as often as not. A successful vasectomy is the safest, and most foolproof, form of BC there is.
Implanon has 1/3 of the failure rate of a vasectomy.

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...ontrol_methods

Male sterilization has a 0.15% failure rate, female sterilization is 0.26% to 0.5%. Compare that to the 0.05% of Implanon or 0.2% of the hormonal IUD and you'll see that sterilization is neither guaranteed nor even the most effective method.
     
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Sep 30, 2016, 10:55 AM
 
What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their vasectomy class at med school?

Doctor.
     
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Sep 30, 2016, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their vasectomy class at med school?

Doctor.
Yep, mistakes when getting snipped are where the failure rates come from, not from tubes magically growing back together (unless you're Wolverine, Deadpool, or some other mutant with a regeneration factor). That's why they test a month after the procedure, to make sure you're shooting blanks.


(Didn't we already have this conversation in this thread?)
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Sep 30, 2016, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yep, mistakes when getting snipped are where the failure rates come from, not from tubes magically growing back together (unless you're Wolverine, Deadpool, or some other mutant with a regeneration factor). That's why they test a month after the procedure, to make sure you're shooting blanks.
...
Much less common are vasectomies that fail due to the blocked sperm tubes reconnecting on one or both sides after the procedure, also termed recanalization failure. The frequency of this depends mainly on how the blockage was made by the surgeon during the vasectomy procedure in the first place. Remember that sperm have a tail and move rapidly; their job it is to conquer unknown territories like the female reproductive tract. When hitting a blockage such as that induced by vasectomy, they try to penetrate it too. Early on after vasectomy, the scar tissue comprising the blockage is typically softer and may be more easily penetrated by live sperm than the same scar tissue after it had cross-linked and hardened several months later. During this period of susceptibility, usually within 4 months of the procedure, the ends of the vas deferens do not actually reconnect but the soft scar tissue between them becomes riddled with many small “holes” and takes on a “swiss cheese” appearance where sperm have driven through it to the other side. Thus, many tiny passages are created by the sperm to bypass the obstruction. This failure pattern typically presents as an appropriate, decreasing sperm count in the ejaculate after vasectomy that then stops falling and remains constant or even rises. Techniques such as the use of non-absorbable surgical clips or sutures, placing each end of the cut vas deferens away from each other (fascial interposition) or thorough burning (cautery) of the inner hole of the tubes are associated with the lowest recanalization rates. Combining two or more of these techniques may lower recanalization rates even more than the use of one approach alone. In Dr. Turek’s procedure, the recanalization rate is < 1/1500 cases.
     
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Sep 30, 2016, 03:07 PM
 
So, "fold the ****ers away from each other" is on the frontiers of medicine?
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 30, 2016, 03:16 PM
 
Obviously. That still counts as a mistake, too.
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Chongo
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Oct 7, 2016, 11:51 AM
 

Rise in girls asking GPs about genital cosmetic surgery is blamed on online porn
An increasing number of girls as young as 15 are asking their GPs for advice about genital cosmetic surgery, a study has found.

Teenage girls who are increasingly concerned that their genitals don't look "normal" have been inquiring about the possibility of getting a labiaplasty - a surgical procedure that removes tissue from the labia.

Author of the study Dr Magdalena Simonis from the University of Melbourne, said she felt compelled to conduct the survey after her own patients began asking about the procedure.
45/47
     
starman
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Oct 7, 2016, 12:10 PM
 
Of course the first question is - dafuq?

But seriously, how bad is it that these girls feel they need surgery?

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subego
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Oct 7, 2016, 12:18 PM
 
I feel you can ask a similar question to women who get bolt-ons.

The objective answer is generally "it's less bad then they imagine".
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Oct 8, 2016, 09:24 AM
 
In the 70s they were sexy, now they're considered nasty. The teenage guys at the home have asked me about the anti-labia phenomenon a few times. I told them they're 100% normal and if they ever dated a girl and found out she'd had them removed, run.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
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Waragainstsleep
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Oct 8, 2016, 05:56 PM
 
Its almost certainly a tiny minority, but I'm sure some girls have them shortened for reasons of comfort. I gather they can get tangled up and can chafe against clothes. I bet either of those is pretty uncomfortable.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
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