[kman42]

New hints have been coming in steadily, suggesting that Apple's next digital lifestyle device will be a video-oriented storage device not dissimilar to TiVo, but with a built-in DVD-R drive and optional network connectivity to hook up via the zero-configuration-required Rendevous standard implemented in OS X 10.2. More details in our next update!

--MOSR (Take it with a grain of salt)

At any rate, I think it is fun speculation. I love my TiVo, but would gladly jump on an Apple device if it allowed network connectivity and came with a DVD-R drive. Frankly, I've had a few problems with my Sony model.

I know this isn't really OSX-related, but it does mention Rendevzous. Besides, I like you guys better than those Lounge weenies

kman

[starman]

A digital recording device with a DVD-R drive in it?

No, no, no, no, no, no, a milltion times NO!

The studios would never allow it in a gazillion years.

Mike

[King Bob On The Cob]

There's already a few that have them...
They are mostly all-in-one systems that can do just about everything though.

[kman42]

Originally posted by starman:
A digital recording device with a DVD-R drive in it?

No, no, no, no, no, no, a milltion times NO!

The studios would never allow it in a gazillion years.

Mike

I know they won't like it, but I don't think there is much they can do about it right now. Besides, it's not really any skin off their ass if people record shows onto DVD, right? The commercials are still there and people can already record onto VHS. It's not like they are giving people the ability to dup actual DVDs, just what has been broadcast.

I realize the studios are in freak-out mode right now, but this would seem a little extreme.

kman

[starman]

Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
There's already a few that have them...
They are mostly all-in-one systems that can do just about everything though.

Like....?

There's no DIGITAL video receiver that has a DVD-R drive in it.

This is the same reason why we don't have digital inputs on DVD-Audio receivers.

Mike

[starman]

Originally posted by kman42:


I know they won't like it, but I don't think there is much they can do about it right now. Besides, it's not really any skin off their ass if people record shows onto DVD, right? The commercials are still there and people can already record onto VHS. It's not like they are giving people the ability to dup actual DVDs, just what has been broadcast.

I realize the studios are in freak-out mode right now, but this would seem a little extreme.

kman

kman,
It is skin off their ass if nobody buys the official DVDs. TV shows are currently coming out on DVD IN FORCE. If people are capable of making perfect copies using your TiVo's "Season Pass" feature, why buy the DVDs when the studios put them out?

VHS is crap. DIGITAL copies are what make the studios nervous.

Mike

[awaspaas]

Originally posted by kman42:
Besides, I like you guys better than those Lounge weenies

I think starman is a weenie.

[starman]

Originally posted by awaspaas:


I think starman is a weenie.

Who asked you?

P.S. You're stuck with me.

Mike

[mrchin]

We've already got El Gato's EyeTV which plugs your cable, digital cable or satellite signal right to your Mac. Has Tivo like software built right in (native to X) which lets you view a show guide and record to your HD.

[awaspaas]

Originally posted by starman:


Who asked you?

P.S. You're stuck with me.

Mike

Okay I don't want to get this thread locked so I'll keep the conversation moving forward. Are there laws that say Apple can't put a DVD-R in a digital recording machine? Are they tied to some special interests that wouldn't allow it to happen? How specifically are they prohibited from doing this? I'm just curious.... weenie!

[kman42]

Originally posted by starman:


kman,
It is skin off their ass if nobody buys the official DVDs. TV shows are currently coming out on DVD IN FORCE. If people are capable of making perfect copies using your TiVo's "Season Pass" feature, why buy the DVDs when the studios put them out?

VHS is crap. DIGITAL copies are what make the studios nervous.

Mike

I didn't think of the series that are coming out on video now. You are correct, they probably will bitch.

I don't want to have this thread transition into a digital rights discussion, but I do have to say this one thing. It really amazes me that the studios are so afraid of this. If people want to watch the Simpsons or the X Files, most people will go rent the videos or buy them if they want to have them forever. In general, most people are honest. In addition, most people don't have the time or the know-how to get on mldonkey to download entire mpgs of their favorite series.

I just don't think there will ever come a time that a peer-to-peer file-sharing service will seriously erode the studios profits if the studios offer a decent one-stop digital shopping service where honest people can go and download the movies they want for a reasonable fee.

It's just paranoia by the old men who run these firms and don't understand the technology they are complaining about. If they had ever actually tried to use Napster or Gnutella they would realize just how frustrating it is to use. Several studies have now shown that the effects of music sharing services on CD sales are negligible. And just imagine how negligible they would be if the companies offered a decent alternative?

kman

[starman]

Originally posted by mrchin:
We've already got El Gato's EyeTV which plugs your cable, digital cable or satellite signal right to your Mac. Has Tivo like software built right in (native to X) which lets you view a show guide and record to your HD.

I saw that.

MPEG-1, and stereo only. TiVo does MPEG-2 and is capable of recording Dolby Digital 5.1. Not the same thing. Not by a long shot.

Mike

[starman]

Originally posted by awaspaas:


Okay I don't want to get this thread locked so I'll keep the conversation moving forward. Are there laws that say Apple can't put a DVD-R in a digital recording machine? Are they tied to some special interests that wouldn't allow it to happen? How specifically are they prohibited from doing this? I'm just curious.... weenie!

Notice how you can't take a screenshot from a DVD in OS X?

I think that answers your question.

Mike

[kman42]

How did they ever manage to get DVD copy-protection passed anyway? Doesn't go squarely against fair-use regulations? Is the theory that once you buy a DVD, you don't really have any need to dup it since you probably won't be watching it over and over on so it's not a hassle to have to use the original DVD? This would be in contrast to music which you do listen to repeatedly and on different devices, including CD players, computers, etc.

In the case of recording TV, is it considered fair use to record a show for viewing later? I think it is since one can record onto VHS. I see no difference with recording something to DVD for later viewing/archiving.

If they want to have some sort of copy-protection then it should only be in the form of preventing people from duplicating a duplicate. Isn't this how DVDs were supposed to work anyway?

kman

[starman]

kman,
You pretty much understand how MOST people think. Just use it in their own home and that's the end of it. However, it's the people that ABUSE that power that screw it up for the rest of us.

The "fair use" argument is starting to come under scrutiny, as is your question about using VHS vs. DVD.

It comes down to one thing and one thing only:

Perfect digital copies.

VHS was crap. 320 lines of resolution. MPEG-1 quality. DVD is SO much better, and essentially kills the need to buy the product on DVD later. THis is the same reason why internet radio is under fire. The RIAA (the f*ckers) are scared of perfect streaming audio over the net (even though we all know that 56k streams are sh*t).

VHS was allowed to squeak by due to poor quality. Now that tons of stuff is coming out on DVD, it's a different story.

Mike

[Producer]

tivo like players have not been selling as well as origonally thought. However once these are integrated into Cable and satalitte set up boxes then they will be subsidized by your monthly payments and thus be cheaper and should take off. Moxi is suppose to be a big player when this takes off. Also future versions of the playstation and Xbox (homestation) will have this capabillity

[tooki]

Originally posted by starman:
Notice how you can't take a screenshot from a DVD in OS X?

I think that answers your question.

In OS X 10.2, if you are running Quartz Extreme, then you can take a screenshot of a DVD.

DVDs are hard to take pix of not because the studios don't want you grabbing frames, but because of the requirement of having to keep the video stream encrypted till the very end. In most operating systems, this means using video overlay, but Quartz Extreme works so very differently that it doesn't need to resort to overlays.

Also, on any Mac OS X, Windows, Linux, etc., you can run VideoLAN (vlc) to play a DVD and take screenshots.

tooki

[Nexus5]

Originally posted by starman:
A digital recording device with a DVD-R drive in it?

No, no, no, no, no, no, a milltion times NO!

The studios would never allow it in a gazillion years.

Mike

- Phillips DVD-R1000
- Pioneer DV-R7000

nexus5

[starman]

Originally posted by Nexus5:


- Phillips DVD-R1000
- Pioneer DV-R7000

nexus5

Those are standalone DVD recorders, NOT emedded in digital video recorders like TiVo.

Mike

[Eriamjh]

TiVo and all other HD recorders are CRAP until the broadcasters start transmitting movies in anamorphic widescreen and progressive scan (opinion). Anything less is a compromise of quality to make it fit non-widescreen, non-high definition, interlaced scanning tvs.

Without 5.1 audio, no HD recorder will ever enter my house.

VHS vertical line resolution is only 250. Broadcast is around 330. DVD is rumored to be 500, but some claim it is 720. Digital satellite and cable might be around 500. For all, the horizontal line resolution is STILL stuck at 480, no matter what.

Where are the high-definition HD recorders?

I would like to see an Apple branded HD recorder with firewire out, iPod-like HD abilities, and be 5.1 AND 6.1 AND 7.1 digital sound capable. I don't think it's gonna happen, though. And it would cost $1000.

[starman]

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
TiVo and all other HD recorders are CRAP until the broadcasters start transmitting movies in anamorphic widescreen and progressive scan (opinion). Anything less is a compromise of quality to make it fit non-widescreen, non-high definition, interlaced scanning tvs.

Without 5.1 audio, no HD recorder will ever enter my house.

VHS vertical line resolution is only 250. Broadcast is around 330. DVD is rumored to be 500, but some claim it is 720. Digital satellite and cable might be around 500. For all, the horizontal line resolution is STILL stuck at 480, no matter what.

Where are the high-definition HD recorders?

I would like to see an Apple branded HD recorder with firewire out, iPod-like HD abilities, and be 5.1 AND 6.1 AND 7.1 digital sound capable. I don't think it's gonna happen, though. And it would cost $1000.

TiVo is not crap. It's one of the best lesser-known electronic devices to come out in a LONG time. Don't call TiVo crap just because there's no HD content out there. TiVo/Replay/etc. are the ONLY systems that grabs the signal from the dish with NO LOSS and the ONLY systems that allows you to record in DD 5.1

DVD horiz. rez. is 720 (I make DVDs. I know). Better yet, anamorphic DVDs have a horiz. rez. of 852.

Forget about the HD recorders, where's the HD CONTENT? There's such an ungodly small amount of crap to choose from in HD right now. Well, unless you want to watch "Everybody Loves Raymond" in HD.

When we can watch shows like Star Trek or Friends or The Simpsons in HD, then you might have an argument.

Mike

[car1son]

Originally posted by mrchin:
We've already got El Gato's EyeTV which plugs your cable, digital cable or satellite signal right to your Mac. Has Tivo like software built right in (native to X) which lets you view a show guide and record to your HD.

El Gato's EyeTV regretably falls short in a couple of areas: it's cable-ready, but only for unscrambled, analog cable. No digital cable, no premium channels, no satellite. For those, it can record the output of a cable or DSS box, but lacks a channel changer. (Every $60 VCR comes with an "IR Blaster" to let the VCR change the cable channel - but not the EyeTV. Go figure.)

Anyone aware of a way to hook a Mac to a device that can change a Cable/DSS receiver's channel?

[cowerd]

HD bandwidth has already been parceled out, i.e. given away, and has been for a couple of years, in the hopes it would entice broadcasters to develop HD programming.

Broadcasters now won't do HD unless there are is DRM built-in to HD sets. Only problem is it will render present HD sets obsolete. The large media conglomerate term for the day is "broadcast flag." See Hollings latest store bought Senate Bill.

Fair use is only coming under question because the RIAA and MPAA don't think the consumer should have any rights. These are the same people that complained about VHS and cassette tapes and CDs. Before you scream digital copies are perfect, the arguments they are using are the same as with VHS, etc--i.e. no one will buy. The reality is no one distributes perfect digital copies--mp3s, ripped DVDs--they suck in quality compared to real thing.

[-Q-]

Originally posted by starman:


Those are standalone DVD recorders, NOT emedded in digital video recorders like TiVo.

Mike

Check this one by Toshiba.

Unfortunately, it was announced in May and hasn't seen the light of day yet in the States and when/if it does, it'll cost US$1,499. Ouch.

[Sean2068]

Originally posted by starman:
A digital recording device with a DVD-R drive in it?

No, no, no, no, no, no, a milltion times NO!

The studios would never allow it in a gazillion years.

Mike

Then I guess the studios will get angry when they find out what Panasonic has released.

[starman]

Originally posted by Sean2068:


Then I guess the studios will get angry when they find out what Panasonic has released.

Panasonic did NOT release a PVR with a DVD-R in it.

They released a STANDALONE DVD recorder with ANALOG inputs.

Mike

[kman42]

To get a little bit on topic:

I think it would be very cool to have a Rendevous-equipped set-top box. Wouldn't it be nice if it contained a very simplified version of iTunes that basiclaly just displayed playlists from other Macs in your house? You could play them through your home stereo system (assuming you had the box connected to an A/V reciever). It could even play some visuals on your tv. They could incorporate similar funcitonality into iPhoto so that photo albums could be selected and played on as a slideshow on your TV. If Apple gets QTSS and Broadcaster simplified a bit, then people could have playlists of any quicktime media including video.

I'm not suggesting full-blown file-browsing, OS functionality here, just a nice simple interface that people expect from their TV. Simple playlists just like the 'Now Playing' feature on TiVo, but modified for music shared from iTunes, photos from iPhoto, and movies from QTSS. People could handle that. In its simplest form it is just one extra menu in the TiVo menu system:

TiVo Main Menu-->Now Playing-->[TV, Music, Photos, Video]-->

Just an example of how it could be an extension of the Mac digital hub without being a full blown set-top computer (which is what MS is introducing around xmas). Instead, this would be a simple extension into the living room.

kman

[jokell82]

Originally posted by kman42:
How did they ever manage to get DVD copy-protection passed anyway? Doesn't go squarely against fair-use regulations? Is the theory that once you buy a DVD, you don't really have any need to dup it since you probably won't be watching it over and over on so it's not a hassle to have to use the original DVD? This would be in contrast to music which you do listen to repeatedly and on different devices, including CD players, computers, etc.

In the case of recording TV, is it considered fair use to record a show for viewing later? I think it is since one can record onto VHS. I see no difference with recording something to DVD for later viewing/archiving.

If they want to have some sort of copy-protection then it should only be in the form of preventing people from duplicating a duplicate. Isn't this how DVDs were supposed to work anyway?

kman

One thing you are forgetting is that no one is required to allow you access to your fair use rights. If the studios want to initiate copy protection, they are within their legal right to do so. Nothing had to be passed to allow the studio's to do this, they just did it.

The problem is, with the DMCA you are not even allowed to exercise your fair use rights. If you try to circumvent copy protection, you are committing an illegal act.

All the studio's did was make it harder for you to exhibit your fair use rights. It was the DMCA that made it illegal.

Sucks, doesn't it?

[Eug]

Panasonic did NOT release a PVR with a DVD-R in it.

They released a STANDALONE DVD recorder with ANALOG inputs.

The hard-drive endowed Panasonic DMR-HS1 has been available in Asia for quite some time. This model is being skipped in North America, and we are getting the DMR-HS2 (see below) as our first model with a hard drive. It's not quite the same thing as a TiVo with DVD-R, but close enough for most purposes.

Check this one by Toshiba.

Unfortunately, it was announced in May and hasn't seen the light of day yet in the States and when/if it does, it'll cost US$1,499. Ouch.

The Panasonic DMR-HS2 one will be $1199 retail. My guess is below $1000 street. Street date is October, so expect to see it before Xmas for sure (judging by announced street dates for other Panasonic products).

I know they won't like it, but I don't think there is much they can do about it right now. Besides, it's not really any skin off their ass if people record shows onto DVD, right? The commercials are still there and people can already record onto VHS. It's not like they are giving people the ability to dup actual DVDs, just what has been broadcast.

Just a note: With the hard-drive based Panasonic/Toshiba recorders, you can edit out the commercials and then burn DVD-R. With the other ones you can record it, edit out the commercials and then load it on your PC, or else you can copy it to a second machine, either via analogue or via Firewire (although many decks do not have Firewire).

To be able to copy a DVD direct (via analogue) to DVD-R you need a Macrovision and CGMS free DVD player as source. These already exist, for $150.

BTW, most machines automatically put chapter marks every 5 minutes.

Anyways I've ordered the DVD-RAM/-R based Panasonic DMR-E30. There is no hard drive or Firewire but I didn't really need those features. (I have a DVD-RAM reader on my PC/Mac, and I'd do any miniDV capture on the computer too.) This thing lists for $800 but has been spotted for under US$550.

TiVo and all other HD recorders are CRAP until the broadcasters start transmitting movies in anamorphic widescreen and progressive scan (opinion). Anything less is a compromise of quality to make it fit non-widescreen, non-high definition, interlaced scanning tvs.

Without 5.1 audio, no HD recorder will ever enter my house.

VHS vertical line resolution is only 250. Broadcast is around 330. DVD is rumored to be 500, but some claim it is 720. Digital satellite and cable might be around 500. For all, the horizontal line resolution is STILL stuck at 480, no matter what.

Where are the high-definition HD recorders?

I would like to see an Apple branded HD recorder with firewire out, iPod-like HD abilities, and be 5.1 AND 6.1 AND 7.1 digital sound capable. I don't think it's gonna happen, though. And it would cost $1000.

If by HD you mean "high definition", then your loss, because you're going to be waiting a LONG time for a true HD recorder. Specifications for a HD recording format don't yet even exist. Plus, the bigwigs aren't keen to have 5.1 inputs in their recorders, for obvious reasons.

Even if you just mean "hard drive", then again, you'll be waiting a very long time.

[macaddled]

Originally posted by starman:

VHS was allowed to squeak by due to poor quality. Now that tons of stuff is coming out on DVD, it's a different story.

No, the studios fought tooth and nail against VHS. They lost, and the Supreme Court upheld fair use. With this Court who knows, but the law is there and could certainly be upheld again.

home video

[macaddled]

Originally posted by starman:


DVD horiz. rez. is 720 (I make DVDs. I know). Better yet, anamorphic DVDs have a horiz. rez. of 852.

Er, are you talking designing menus or something? Because, yeah, there you're going to be using 720x540 CCIR pixels, or wider for anamorphic.

But an NTSC DVD is still limited to NTSC's 525 lines of horiz resolution. (Btw I also make DVDs.)

[talisker]

All sounds like a nice idea, but although consumer electronics companies like Panasonic, Sony etc are perfectly able to launch their TV - related products worldwide, with different types of tuner etc to work with different TV systems, somehow I just know Apple would fail miserably at this. I've got a horrible vision of a North America only system that wont work (or certainly wont work effectively) elsewhere in the world. So as far as I'm concerned I'd rather they concentrated on products that anyone will be able to use. This whole digital TV / computer integration type thing just seems horribly messy to me.

[Diggory Laycock]

I may be mistaken, but I'm sure I read an article on-line in which Steve Jobs said specifically that Apple was not planning to release a PVR type device, at least not within the next couple of years. I remember it specifically, because it seemed so unusual for Apple to confirm or deny future products.

[Sean2068]

Originally posted by starman:


Panasonic did NOT release a PVR with a DVD-R in it.

They released a STANDALONE DVD recorder with ANALOG inputs.

Mike

You really are quite stupid! what else can I say.

http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_el...12&cont_id=244

[starman]

Originally posted by Sean2068:


You really are quite stupid! what else can I say.

http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_el...12&cont_id=244

Ok, Brainiac, where's the DIGITAL satellite input?

DIGITAL?????????????????????????????????

I see NOTHING in that press release that says DIGITIAL satellite input.

In addition to recording new video content, the DMR-HS2 also allows consumers to transfer their favorite VHS tape recordings to space-saving discs or the internal hard drive.

That's ANALOG, unless VHS went digital behind our backs.

I see NOTHING about satellite reception. That's the ONLY way you can get a DIGITAL input into a recording device.

Creating an original video on DVD is easy with the DMR-HS2. Its DV input terminal and IEEE cable allow recording of digital images directly from a digital camcorder onto either a DVD-RAM or DVD-R1 disc

Read what that said. "ORIGINAL video".

Go ahead and call me stupid, but you better check your goddamn FACTS before you do that.

Mike

[talisker]

Guys calm down for fooks sake. There's clearly not enough info in that press release to categorically state whether it has an input for digital satellite (not the only way of getting digital input by the way, what about digital cable or terrestrial broadcasts), although I would have thought it could be likely. The press release doesnt mention that it has a power input, so I suppose it must run on batteries.

[clod]

Originally posted by starman:

Forget about the HD recorders, where's the HD CONTENT? There's such an ungodly small amount of crap to choose from in HD right now. Well, unless you want to watch "Everybody Loves Raymond" in HD.

When we can watch shows like Star Trek or Friends or The Simpsons in HD, then you might have an argument.

Mike

Here we have HD on NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, and PBS on digital cable.

[starman]

Originally posted by talisker:
Guys calm down for fooks sake. There's clearly not enough info in that press release to categorically state whether it has an input for digital satellite (not the only way of getting digital input by the way, what about digital cable or terrestrial broadcasts), although I would have thought it could be likely. The press release doesnt mention that it has a power input, so I suppose it must run on batteries.

I had digital cable. I don't know if it does now, but back then, there was NO way to get Dolby Digital 5.1 from it. Also, "digital cable" really meant "some channels are in digital, others are still analog". There was a time when I had the digital cable box and regular "plug-it-right-in-the-back-of-the-TV" analog cable (here in NJ, since Suburban Cablevision in 1981, there was never a need for a box). HBO was drastically different, but what was then ZDTV was EXACTLY the same as well as other channels. Same snow, same bad audio. Digital cable was a joke which is why I went with the dish.

If the unit had ANY kind of satellite receiver on it, it would say so.

Mike

[starman]

Originally posted by clod:
Here we have HD on NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, and PBS on digital cable.

But not every show is in HD.

Mike

[clod]

Originally posted by starman:


But not every show is in HD.

Mike

well, i don't know. They have dedicated HD channels for the major networks in addition to the analog major network channels. You have to pay extra (on top of what you have to pay for digital cable) for HDTV. Digital Cable now supports Dolby 5.1, also.

[Eug]

Guys calm down for fooks sake. There's clearly not enough info in that press release to categorically state whether it has an input for digital satellite (not the only way of getting digital input by the way, what about digital cable or terrestrial broadcasts), although I would have thought it could be likely. The press release doesnt mention that it has a power input, so I suppose it must run on batteries.

The DMR-HS2 does NOT have digital inputs, aside from Firewire.

Anyways, whoever is demanding that digital inputs are a must have, I see Firewire as more useful than digital TV inputs to be honest. Digital TV inputs