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Jawbone54 · Jan 11, 2009, 02:13 PM

I just noticed last night that hyteckit and was banned, then noticed this morning that sek929 was gone as well.

I'm a little curious to find out why. I know hyteckit was aggravating some people in the Scientology thread, but did he really deserve a ban? I may have disagreed with him and thought his remarks were a little too antagonistic, but I didn't think it would end up as anything more than a locked thread.

sek929 is inexplicable to me. I searched his posts, and I'm not seeing it. Was there something else going on that resulted in these two bans?

shifuimam · Jan 11, 2009, 02:27 PM

Both are temp bans.

Unless I'm mistaken, temp bans are nearly always the result of accumulating infractions - they're applied automatically. I don't know how many infractions results in a temp ban, but that's most likely what happened,

Although hyteckit's ban is longer than sek929's, so it's possible he was given some extra free vacation time.

Jawbone54 · Jan 11, 2009, 04:00 PM

I see.

I'm not outraged or anything. I'm just a little confused.

Jawbone54 · Jan 11, 2009, 04:10 PM

Now I'm curious as to how many infractions I've built up...

subego · Jan 11, 2009, 04:22 PM

They're in your profile.

As for the banning (or the rationale that led to the critical amount of infractions), I could see them being judged on different metrics. sek929 more or less admitted that he knew better than to continue participating in that thread, yet did so anyways.

hyteckit clearly didn't know better.

Does that make sense?

A different possibility is that you get infractions for calling other posters "Kevin".

mattyb · Jan 11, 2009, 06:19 PM

I noticed this myself the other day, but being the coward that I am thought better than to open a thread in the feedback section. It would be nice to know why sek929 was banned though.

besson3c · Jan 11, 2009, 06:25 PM

am I the only person that is thinking that maybe one of the mods discovered that either sek929 or hyteckit was really abe?

reader50 · Jan 11, 2009, 06:59 PM

Both members show accumulated infractions from a PWL thread. One is longer because the infraction total was substantially higher - the board sometimes scales the tempban for high totals.

shifuimam · Jan 11, 2009, 07:53 PM

So once you accumulate X number of infractions, you get a tempban. Once that tempban is over, do those infractions stay on your account until they expire, or does the tempban get rid of them?

I'd assume it must be the first one.

Do admins ever manually administer tempbans?

And, while we're on the subject, how many infractions will automatically tempban a user? Are tempbans longer if the infractions are all in one subforum (e.g. the PWL)?

reader50 · Jan 11, 2009, 08:35 PM

The point total is the primary trigger, but it's more complex than the single number.

Infractions expire within 10 days or 7 (PWL - politics is fleeting). However, the expire times are additive within a category. Language 1 (10 days) -- Language 2 (issued while another Language was still active: 20 days) -- Language 3 (issued while 2 other Languages were still active: 30 days).

A tempban does not automatically wash the slate, it's separate from the expire times on each infraction. Since some points may survive a tempban, the next infraction may hand out a longer tempban because the member had a bunch still active.

Staff members sometimes manually fiddle a tempban in special cases. An example would be an underage user - manually tempbanned until an Admin could update the COPPA permissions, after which the tempban was lifted.

20 active points produces a 1-week tempban. Higher totals have additional triggers. The whole scheme is designed to be a graduated response system.

Laminar · Jan 11, 2009, 08:56 PM

In all honesty, sek's posts seemed tame for the PWL and I would bet they were reported by an "enemy," but would have been ignored otherwise. The guy's never ever had an infraction before (I think?) and suddenly gets enough for a temp ban? It seems a bit unbelievable to me.

brassplayersrock² · Jan 11, 2009, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Now I'm curious as to how many infractions I've built up...

there's a new feature in your profile that you can see all infractions.

shifuimam · Jan 11, 2009, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by reader50

The point total is the primary trigger, but it's more complex than the single number.

Infractions expire within 10 days or 7 (PWL - politics is fleeting). However, the expire times are additive within a category. Language 1 (10 days) -- Language 2 (issued while another Language was still active: 20 days) -- Language 3 (issued while 2 other Languages were still active: 30 days).

A tempban does not automatically wash the slate, it's separate from the expire times on each infraction. Since some points may survive a tempban, the next infraction may hand out a longer tempban because the member had a bunch still active.

Staff members sometimes manually fiddle a tempban in special cases. An example would be an underage user - manually tempbanned until an Admin could update the COPPA permissions, after which the tempban was lifted.

20 active points produces a 1-week tempban. Higher totals have additional triggers. The whole scheme is designed to be a graduated response system.

So then two infractions in close succession would result in a tempban, correct? Or can the number of points doled out for a single infraction be set by the admin/mod?

Cold Warrior · Jan 11, 2009, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

So then two infractions in close succession would result in a tempban, correct? Or can the number of points doled out for a single infraction be set by the admin/mod?

Different infractions have different values. For example, personal attacks are 10 points, so then two in short order would trigger a temp ban. There are enough infractions with different point values to provide gradient. Admins can create custom infractions with custom points at will (mods choose from an existing selection).

MallyMal · Jan 11, 2009, 09:54 PM

Hmm, I see no infractions on my profile. I feel soooo unloved. Maybe I don't post enough.

Simon · Jan 12, 2009, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by reader50

Infractions expire within 10 days or 7 (PWL - politics is fleeting).

Really?

So the place with the worst behavior and the nastiest posts its the place where enforcement is the most lenient? That doesn't strike you as incredibly ass-backwards? Or in other words, if you want people in general to act decent and you have one sandbox where the worst trash is put out, is it there you want to be soft?

ghporter · Jan 12, 2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Really?

So the place with the worst behavior and the nastiest posts its the place where enforcement is the most lenient? That doesn't strike you as incredibly ass-backwards? Or in other words, if you want people in general to act decent and you have one sandbox where the worst trash is put out, is it there you want to be soft?

In general, ALL infractions expire in 10 days. No matter where they were earned. The point is that if you accumulate enough points, then you earn a temp-ban. The bans themselves can be adjusted according to the behavior that led to them, but the infraction point expiration is simply to keep the infractions useful as a measure of CURRENT behavior.

And contrary to your supposition, PWL-related infractions carry higher point values. Act the ass there, and you rack up the points very quickly.

besson3c · Jan 12, 2009, 09:26 AM

What about holidays where people are less likely to post? Are those counted in the 10 days? That doesn't seem very fair... Am I allowed to make two personal attacks every 10.01 days? What happens if I change my timezone so that my time keeps changing? How do you know where I really am? What if I'm logging into my home network via a VPN so that my IP address remains the same, but I keep on changing timezones? What if users start manipulating their timezones like crazy so that their time banned is shorter, or so they can rack up more infractions faster? If the infractions are based solely on the timezone of the server, what if the server changes timezones?

Dakar V · Jan 12, 2009, 10:40 AM

I can't lie, I find this very confusing. It takes only 2 infractions to get a temp ban? One wonders how half the PL wasn't on hiatus during the election season.

seks' ban reads like one you'd hand out to a known pot stirrer; not one you'd hand out to a guy who makes an appearance one a month (and was one of many who were arguing with hyteckit).

I'm also a little curious whether he received the infractions separately, or he got deluged and banned without warning.

Doofy · Jan 12, 2009, 10:52 AM

If a nice, inoffensive chap like Sek gets a ban, you know the mods have their underwear a little too tight.

besson3c · Jan 12, 2009, 10:56 AM

What happens if somebody hijacks the NTP server and skews the clock ahead into the future so that tempbans expire faster?

What I would recommend is an encrypted NTP server in Greenich, England that is protected with the MacNN secret key, and a script that looks for clock skews into the future every minute. If a clock skew of more than 10 seconds is found, we go into red alert stage and MacNN notifies Abe who notifies the official MacNN super mods who have been designated for such an emergency (namely, me). I then come in and relieve all of the other mods of duty until the security breach is under control and we have closed the cargo bay doors.

mattyb · Jan 12, 2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

What happens if somebody hijacks the NTP server and skews the clock ahead into the future so that tempbans expire faster?

What I would recommend is an encrypted NTP server in Greenich, England that is protected with the MacNN secret key, and a script that looks for clock skews into the future every minute. If a clock skew of more than 10 seconds is found, we go into red alert stage and MacNN notifies Abe who notifies the official MacNN super mods who have been designated for such an emergency (namely, me). I then come in and relieve all of the other mods of duty until the security breach is under control and we have closed the cargo bay doors.

Slow day at work huh?

Back on subject, is there any way that Sek could get unbanned? For someone who's been here for nearly ten years and who hasn't (AFAIK) been banned before, this seems pretty rough.

Doofy · Jan 12, 2009, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

What I would recommend is an encrypted NTP server in Greenich, England

They're actually in Rugby.

Simon · Jan 12, 2009, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

I just noticed last night that hyteckit and was banned, then noticed this morning that sek929 was gone as well.

Should we actually be surprised? Both posters post almost exclusively in the PWL. Isn't that bound to happen earlier or later?

Dakar V · Jan 12, 2009, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Both posters post almost exclusively in the PWL.

You don't know what you're talking about. sek is primarily a Gaming and Lounge poster.

Simon · Jan 12, 2009, 01:36 PM

He does post a lot in the Lounge, but shortly before he was banned he posted only to the PWL.

shifuimam · Jan 12, 2009, 01:37 PM

Guys, it's only a temp ban. He'll be back before the end of the week.

Dakar V · Jan 12, 2009, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

shortly before he was banned he posted only to the PWL.

≠ posting almost exclusively in the PL.

Edit:

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Guys, it's only a temp ban. He'll be back before the end of the week.

Yeah, obviously this thread is based on what seem to be the inexplicable circumstances, as well as the principle behind them.

Spheric Harlot · Jan 12, 2009, 01:58 PM

Anybody in doubt of what happened here, read the Scientology thread in the PWL. sek knows what he's talking about (and he was absolutely right IMO), but it got a little...heated...in there.

reader50 · Jan 12, 2009, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Really?

So the place with the worst behavior and the nastiest posts its the place where enforcement is the most lenient? That doesn't strike you as incredibly ass-backwards? Or in other words, if you want people in general to act decent and you have one sandbox where the worst trash is put out, is it there you want to be soft?

The "PWL Infraction" is 7pt, and lasts 7 days. All other infractions last 10 days (various values). The other types can be given out in the PWL, and often are.

2 Personal Attacks in short order will produce a tempban. The "PWL Infraction" was designed to produce a tempban after 3 strikes in a week.

mattyb · Jan 12, 2009, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Guys, it's only a temp ban. He'll be back before the end of the week.

That doesn't make it right.

Jawbone54 · Jan 12, 2009, 03:45 PM

I've re-read the thread in question, and I still don't see it. sek was pretty calm considering how out of control hyteckit was becoming.

I know he'll be back soon, but it's a tad bit irritating to see him get bumped out over something so apparently trivial.

Another question: do you rack up infractions simply from someone clicking "report post," or does a mod have to confirm it? I'm totally ignorant to the situation. Unless I'm forgetting something from years ago, I don't think I've ever reported anyone.

Dakar V · Jan 12, 2009, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Another question: do you rack up infractions simply from someone clicking "report post," or does a mod have to confirm it? I'm totally ignorant to the situation. Unless I'm forgetting something from years ago, I don't think I've ever reported anyone.

My good lord, no. The PL would be a ghost town if just reporting a post earned you an infraction. Reported posts are reviewed and infractions are handed down from the determination, I believe.

vmarks · Jan 12, 2009, 04:55 PM

Infractions do not stem only from reported posts. The admin or mod can read a thread and determine an infraction is earned without a post having been reported.

turtle777 · Jan 12, 2009, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

What about holidays where people are less likely to post?

What the heck are you talking about ?

Poeple are most active around here on holidays, they got nothing else to do.

-t

ghporter · Jan 12, 2009, 08:19 PM

besson seems to be concerned about users "manipulating" the system. Not to worry. There is a significant amount of oversight in the whole process. The system is not subject to users being able to avoid bans or shorten them, and the staff keeps a close eye on how the whole thing works so there aren't any bobbles.

A personal attack, as opposed to an "impersonal attack", has to be pretty serious before we issue an infraction. And while some people say they "can't see it," there is indeed enough there to land even a usually calm member like sek a short vacation.

Jawbone54 · Jan 12, 2009, 08:40 PM

I submit the theory that all the mods are secretly robots. Those who were formerly normal posters have now been assimilated into the collective hive.

Back on topic...I guess it's possible that the Scientology thread got way out of hand unnecessarily. I guess I just got caught by surprise. No big deal; he'll be back. At least I've been educated a bit about the process.

besson3c · Jan 12, 2009, 08:48 PM

I'm also concerned about the threat of terrorism. What do we do if we catch a terrorist on MacNN? Do we have the appropriate security protocols in place? Perhaps we should run a few drills?

ghporter · Jan 12, 2009, 08:56 PM

I was concerned that a rash of non-posting new members may have been some sort of terrorist communication scheme. Turns out they were just out to manipulate the major search engines.

How could we identify a real terrorist on MacNN? A goodly percentage of our members post as if they expected to be all powerful or something, and others keep so much to themselves that "loner" sounds like a very good label. What would a terrorist's posts look like?

besson3c · Jan 12, 2009, 09:48 PM

Well, I think that we should make it a regular drill to ask members about their possible terror connections, and to be very firm about this...

ThinkInsane · Jan 12, 2009, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by MallyMal

Hmm, I see no infractions on my profile. I feel soooo unloved. Maybe I don't post enough.

Check again, I hooked you up with a post-whoring charge. You're 'NN rep is now solid.

ghporter · Jan 12, 2009, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Well, I think that we should make it a regular drill to ask members about their possible terror connections, and to be very firm about this...

OK then, you first. Fess up. Are you trying to derail this thread for terroristic purposes?

besson3c · 10:58 PM

Maybe we should start a new thread for this ghporter? Something tells me you are trying to trick me into getting myself an infraction, but I'm not going to fall for that. Maybe you should give yourself an infraction for encouraging my bad behavior? Or, you could also give everybody on MacNN multiple infractions so that everybody is temp banned except me, so that I have nobody to talk to. I'm not exactly sure why this is a good idea, but if I told you I'd be derailing this thread.

Chongo · Jan 12, 2009, 11:32 PM

Is two bans from one thread (Scientology) a record?

MallyMal · Jan 13, 2009, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

Check again, I hooked you up with a post-whoring charge. You're 'NN rep is now solid.

I'm one of the cool kids now!!!

Simon · 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Maybe we should start a new thread for this ghporter? Something tells me...

Well something tells me...

... you have been reported by one or several people ...
... because you are deliberately crapping this thread with nonsense in order to ...
... either derail it ...
... or to show off what a fantastically funny and cool guy you are ...

and that all tells me ...
... you should probably just follow ghporter's friendly advice and drop it ...

unless of course ...
... you really want to be sent on a vacation.

Maflynn · Jan 13, 2009, 08:29 AM

You guys (and gals) realize that the way this thread is going Sek will not be banned much longer but this thread will continue to live on in infamy.

Like most threads here in the feedback forum, we have people genuinely asking a question, others angry that something happened and a bunch of others crapping/trying to derail the thread.

Personally I've not really seen too much in that thread that deserved banning but its possible both parties were getting dinged enough times for minor offenses that it added up to a ban The way the PWL gets out of hand, I don't see a problem of handing out some short vacations from time to time to keep things civil.

besson3c · Jan 13, 2009, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Well something tells me...

... you have been reported by one or several people ...
... because you are deliberately crapping this thread with nonsense in order to ...
... either derail it ...
... or to show off what a fantastically funny and cool guy you are ...

and that all tells me ...
... you should probably just follow ghporter's friendly advice and drop it ...

unless of course ...
... you really want to be sent on a vacation.

I think my being a fantastically funny and cool guy needs no demonstration, but I have no particular agenda here other than to have some fun. Perhaps this place needs more of this, and less of taking this stuff so damn seriously and obsessively?

Dakar V · Jan 13, 2009, 09:38 AM

I find your agenda of derailing threads you deem too serious obsessive.

Maflynn · Jan 13, 2009, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

IPerhaps this place needs more of this, and less of taking this stuff so damn seriously and obsessively?

I think that's Simon's issue, that too much attempt at "fun" have caused many people to behave in such a way that detracts from the technical discussions.

I have to agree with him here, that many (all?) threads in the feedback forum get crapped on/derailed so quickly that its almost impossible to have a genuine dialog.