[tooki]

An objective view of the facts would show that to be untrue.

tooki

[IceEnclosure]

should a skateboarder be concerned when a pitbull is running at him from down the street? I say yes.

should the same skateboarder be concerned when a labrador comes running at him down the same street? heck no.

[smacintush]

The only thing that Pitbulls as a breed are guilty of is being praised by ignorant redneck owners who want a tough, macho dog to turn into a monster. I used to know people who fed them gunpowder in order to try and make them mean.

The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of Pit Bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any [other] breed of dog. There is absolutely not evidence for the existence of any kind of ’locking mechanism’ unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier, says Dr. I. Lerh Brisbin of the University of Georgia

Dr. I. Lerh Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of ‘pounds per square inch’ can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data.

[IceEnclosure]

or my buddy who has three pitbulls (all rather nice actually, they come to the park and play amongst us beer drinkers) who routinely hang from tree branches for 30+ seconds at a time. for fun.

[Cody Dawg]

The meanest dogs I've ever met, ever, are akitas.

SCARY DOGS.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

I'm very sorry for your loss.

Pitbulls should be banned. How many incidents like this is it going to take?

WRONG!!!!! PEOPLE WHO RAISE DOGS TO BE VIOLENT AND WHO LET THEM ROAM SHOULD BE BANNED. The dogs cannot help what they do-they have neither ethics nor conscience. But the people who made them that way should be shot. Really. It was cruel to the dogs and they were, in turn, cruel to your cat.

You have my sympathy, really, vexborg, but we must all keep in mind that the problem is not the animals, who cannot think and have no morals or ethics, it's the people who make them violent and don't contain them.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure

or my buddy who has three pitbulls (all rather nice actually, they come to the park and play amongst us beer drinkers) who routinely hang from tree branches for 30+ seconds at a time. for fun.

I guess you've never seen other dogs do the same kind of thing? Little dogs often let themselves be lifted by the tug-of-war rope they're holding in their mouth.

Interesting factoid unrelated to the above: one of the things pit bulls were bred for is to be fearless. Now, that's usually told as a reason for why they are dangerous, because they are not afraid of pain. But it has a flip side. A huge flip side: they aren't easily spooked. That means that it will not perceive as a threat, for example, a child tugging at its ears, something many dogs would immediately respond to negatively. The fearlessness basically means that, absent abuse, and provided that it's had the proper obedience training (like every dog should), they are extremely tolerant, calm dogs.

tooki

[g/re/p]

If pitbulls had killed one of my cats, i would NOT be contacting the police - i would be calling the sporting goods store to purchase a powerfull rifle with a scope.....

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by jokell82

It's not even the least bit possible. My dog is by far the sweetest dog in the world. When she's out running she doesn't even look at other dogs, or even cats for that matter. If a burglar were to break in she'd probably lick him to death.

But I guess since she's killed 3 squirrels we need to put her down. Sucks for us.

I've met very nice pitbulls but I have also seen TONS of bad pitbulls. Problem is everytime you hear of a kid getting mauled it is always by a pitbull.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

I've met very nice pitbulls but I have also seen TONS of bad pitbulls. Problem is everytime you hear of a kid getting mauled it is always by a pitbull.

Owners who want mean dogs are more apt to buy pitbulls and make them that way. If you're really going to stereotype or profile, look at the owners before you condemn the breed.

Banning pitbulls will only force such wasteful bodies of society to abuse some other big animal.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by g/re/p

If pitbulls had killed one of my cats, i would NOT be contacting the police - i would be calling the sporting goods store to purchase a powerfull rifle with a scope.....

Frankly, I think you'd be justified. That individual animal clearly has shown itself to be a danger, and the owners most likely haven't done anything about it.

tooki

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Owners who want mean dogs are more apt to buy pitbulls and make them that way. If you're really going to stereotype or profile, look at the owners before you condemn the breed.

Banning pitbulls will only force such wasteful bodies of society to abuse some other big animal.

Fine, we'll bad stupid owner then. Much easier.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

I've met very nice pitbulls but I have also seen TONS of bad pitbulls. Problem is everytime you hear of a kid getting mauled it is always by a pitbull.

Of course. There are two reasons for that:

1. Pit bulls are the current media darling for animal attacks, so reports on attacks by other breeds will be... downplayed. A story that says that all medium- and large-breed dogs can lethally attack a child isn't news. Focusing on a single breed is.*
2. Pit bulls are well-represented in attack statistics, but this may well be due to the breed's high popularity at the moment. In the past, other breeds (e.g. rotties and dobermans) have held the #1 position for the same reason. Dog breeds have fads, and right now, pit bulls are in style among the "tough" crowd.

tooki


*This reminds me of a sidebar from my statistics textbook: it quoted an ad for an alarm system vendor that claimed that "42% of burglaries happen on between Friday morning and Sunday night", emphasizing how weekends are prime targets for break-ins. But if you do the math, Friday, Saturday and Sunday comprise 43% of the week. Those days are no more statistically likely to have break-ins, but by wording things a certain way, you can make them seem disproportionately dangerous.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Fine, we'll bad stupid owner then. Much easier.

Well that's the problem. It's a LOT easier to ban a breed than it is to control bad owners. (Plus banning a breed makes for good media, since misinformed people will quickly believe that the breed was the problem, and that eliminating will solve it.) Never mind that the breed isn't the problem, and that banning it won't fix it.

tooki

P.S. If you really want breed-specific legislation, it should be against keeping wild, undomesticated animals as pets. For example tigers. (Though it did give me some morbid glee when I heard that some spoiled brat rich teen girl wanted her high school graduation pictures taken with a tiger, so she did, and it ate her. Whoops. I guess the mall studio might have been better after all!)

[Cody Dawg]

So, last fall there I was, here in my own home cleaning...had all the doors open as I was airing out the house and cleaning the carpets...my bird is singing in its cage and all is well...

Then my bird starts squawking and shrieking and I hear it hit the grate of its cage and then I hear a dog whining...

I go into my family room and there is a damned pit bull trying to get into the cage...the dog came right into my house! I took my broom and tried to shush it out but it ignored me...I was freaked out and got a piece of lunchmeat from the refridgerator and got the dog to follow me into the bathroom and I threw the meat on the floor and slammed the door shut then called 911 for the police..."Hello? A pit bull just came into my house and tried to attack my parrot!"

I'm sitting outside and I can hear the dog whining in the house, scratching the door, and all of a sudden a construction worker working on a house down the street came walking up and said, "You seen a dog running around here?" I didn't say anything. Then he hears the dog whining. He said, "Is my dog here?" I said, "I can't talk to you - the police are on the way." I went in the house and shut the door.

This guy starts pounding on my door, yelling at me about how I'd better give him his dog, and he's getting louder and louder. I call 911 back and let them listen to what he's doing and there's the noise of the dog barking and whining, trapped in the bathroom, and the guy is threatening me about his dog...

All of a sudden I hear sirens and three cop cars pull up and they come running up and confront the guy threatening me over his threatening dog...it's like a COPS tv show episode or something. Turns out he has a warrant for his arrest. They have a special pit bull animal control unit here where I live and that unit is on the way to get the dog. Both the dog and his owner are going to jail, respectively.

They labeled the dog "aggressive" a few days later I found out. Who knows why.

But that's my pit bull story. There is something just not quite right about those dogs. They show no fear, no normal apprehension, that normal dogs do in my opinion. Of course, down here where I live a lot of them have been bred to be that way, unfortunately, but that dog was a menace, in my opinion.

What if I'd had a newborn infant laying in his cradle when that dog came in?

[Landos Mustache]

Look I know banning a bread will not fix anything. Bad owners will just move onto german shepherds or something else.

Problem is what else can be done? Like I said I live in Ontario and in the past 20 years every single time I have heard of a mauling it was by a Pitbull. I volunteer at the humane society and walk the pitbulls and most are very sweet. But bread for bread there are more pitbulls that have major issues.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

So, last fall there I was, here in my own home cleaning...had all the doors open as I was airing out the house and cleaning the carpets...my bird is singing in its cage and all is well...
<snip>
What if I'd had a newborn infant laying in his cradle when that dog came in?

So, um, how exactly does this story say anything except for "BAD OWNER"? Here, the owner is clearly at fault for a) not having trained and acclimated the dog, and b) not keeping it under control.

Many, many, many dogs will go after animals, especially birds, in particular if the dog was not raised around other animals. That's nothing particular to pit bulls!

Cody, you said at the end that "Of course, down here where I live a lot of them have been bred to be that way, unfortunately...". But "bred" is the wrong word. They've been trained to be that way. The breed was bred long before (in fact, specifically to not be aggressive to humans!!!!). It takes a lot of abuse and training to make dogs as aggressive.

Little dogs, on the other hand, are ever-fearful of everything (since they're small and know anything could eat or stomp them), so they are naturally nervous, fearful and snappy. Admittedly, a chihuahua can't do as much damage as a large dog. (ANY large dog: pit bulls' jaws are no stronger than any other dog of similar size.)

tooki

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Look I know banning a bread will not fix anything. Bad owners will just move onto german shepherds or something else.

Problem is what else can be done? Like I said I live in Ontario and in the past 20 years every single time I have heard of a mauling it was by a Pitbull. I volunteer at the humane society and walk the pitbulls and most are very sweet. But bread for bread there are more pitbulls that have major issues.

Well isn't that because a huge number of them are being raised as fighting dogs, requiring tons of blatant abuse? From what I understand, a pit bull raised as a pet will generally have a fantastic temperament.

Again, this goes back squarely to bad owners, who will simply find another breed to abuse if pit bulls are banned. Instead, existing dog laws (and court orders on known-bad owners) need to be enforced.

tooki

[Landos Mustache]

So tooki what is your solution. We set up a Pitbull task force that checks up on registered pitbulls every 4 weeks to make sure owners are being nice to them?

Or by enforcing it do you mean after it mauls a 2 year old kid they get a bigger fine?

[tooki]

I would:

1. Require and enforce dog licensing (you know, the little tags dogs have to have in most places).
2. Require documented obedience and owner training (including follow-ups) by a certified obedience trainer in order to obtain licensing.
3. Require temperament testing of all dogs (e.g. AKC's Canine Good Citizen) to obtain licensing.
4. Require proof of routine (e.g. every year or two) veterinary checkups of the dog to maintain licensing.
5. Immediately fine heavily anyone found to have an unlicensed dog, and have the dog removed.
6. Animal abuse would be extremely harshly dealt with, e.g. immediate removal of all animals and then jail for the owner. (I have no tolerance for animal abuse.)
7. Egregious or repeat offenders would not be allowed to get any dog licenses in the future.

In other words, a comprehensive set of requirements for proper keeping of the dog to ensure its safety and well-being as well as that of the society within which it lives.

I have NO problems with being tough on dog owners -- and I say that as a dog lover who's looking to get a dog soon. If someone can't be a responsible dog owner, then they shouldn't be allowed to own them, period.

The real problem is, as that link earlier in the thread said, that no real enforcement of existing dog laws is occurring.

tooki

[Landos Mustache]

And where would all this money to set these things up come from? Who had time to enforce that?

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Or by enforcing it do you mean after it mauls a 2 year old kid they get a bigger fine?

No. Enforce it when a warning sign happens. Pretty much every dog that's mauled a human has previously a) bitten people, including its owner and b) has killed animals.

In other words, when the dog bites a person, deal with the problem then. Don't give the owner some warning to keep the dog muzzled and consider it dealt with. No, take the dog on the spot.

tooki

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

And where would all this money to set these things up come from? Who had time to enforce that?

The licensing requirements would be met by the owners, at the owners' expense. If you can't afford a dog, you shouldn't be allowed to have one. The idea is that all the 3rd-party requirements (e.g. temperament testing and routine vet checkups) would identify dogs with behavioral problems (or signs of abuse!), especially since a professional could identify them correctly before a layman.

We require similar paper trails for driver's licensing, and it seems to work.

tooki

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by tooki

No. Enforce it when a warning sign happens. Pretty much every dog that's mauled a human has previously a) bitten people, including its owner and b) has killed animals.
tooki

Can't see it working. I don't see anyone finding out about a squirrel getting mauled. Even a cat getting hacked up can be a mystery if you don't witness it.

Bad owners will not register a bad dog.

[tooki]

Bad owners also don't get rid of pit bulls just because they're illegal.

tooki

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

So tooki what is your solution. We set up a Pitbull task force that checks up on registered pitbulls every 4 weeks to make sure owners are being nice to them?

Or by enforcing it do you mean after it mauls a 2 year old kid they get a bigger fine?

Exactly. Whatever you attribute the pit bull's aggressive tendencies to, fact is a lot of them ARE that way, period. To wait until someone else is hurt or killed to do something about it is absurd, given the reputation of the dog. I do not buy that every owner of a pb has raised it to be violent, nor do I believe it's strictly a matter of bad PR for the dog, selective journalism or an urban myth.

You can only control owners so far, and that's not very far at all. Effective control would have to be dependent on the owner's compliance to a large extent.

[tooki]

That's why my proposed system requires external verification.

tooki

[Cody Dawg]

No, tooki, I said "bred" on purpose:

Down here they take the meanest of the meanest and breed them to the meanest of the meanest for repeated generations. There was a big story about that...some of these pitbulls are 10 generations of mean.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

Exactly. Whatever you attribute the pit bull's aggressive tendencies to, fact is a lot of them ARE that way, period. To wait until someone else is hurt or killed to do something about it is absurd, given the reputation of the dog. I do not buy that every owner of a pb has raised it to be violent, nor do I believe it's strictly a matter of bad PR for the dog, selective journalism or an urban myth.

Fact is: whether you ban a specific breed or not, there will be an eventual, inevitable shift (forced and unforced, respectively) to another breed; there will be more journalistic sensationalism; there will be another kind of dog under the people's radar. (Tooki already mentioned how trends change, how people were once wary of other breeds.)

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by tooki

Bad owners also don't get rid of pit bulls just because they're illegal.

tooki

No, but the legislation does allow them to be forcibly removed if any neighbor happens to see it and, to the authorities, peach on the owner.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by tooki

Bad owners also don't get rid of pit bulls just because they're illegal.

tooki

Right, but good luck hiding one. Cats are easier because you can't just keep them inside.

[vexborg]

Originally Posted by ghporter

WRONG!!!!! PEOPLE WHO RAISE DOGS TO BE VIOLENT AND WHO LET THEM ROAM SHOULD BE BANNED. The dogs cannot help what they do-they have neither ethics nor conscience. But the people who made them that way should be shot. Really. It was cruel to the dogs and they were, in turn, cruel to your cat.

You have my sympathy, really, vexborg, but we must all keep in mind that the problem is not the animals, who cannot think and have no morals or ethics, it's the people who make them violent and don't contain them.

Thanks, I can only agree.

The dogs are not blame, but since they were let run out lose instead of their bastard owner walking them, then I would say they defaulted back to their predatory stage! The death of our wee guy (the sweetest and most gentle cat in the world) could have been avoided if the owner had taken care of his dogs, and not using them to boost his ego!

My wife and I are mourning our loss, but eventually we'll be able to put it behind us, and get on with life! Getting a wee new kitten to love and spoil. But it's never going to an outdoor cat, not in this neighborhood... Never!

We can't bring back Diego, crying doesn't help, now we need to remember him for the sweet cat he was - we'll only have the memories and his ashes!

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Right, but good luck hiding one. Cats are easier because you can't just keep them inside.

Huh? Millions of people keep strictly-indoor cats.

The types of owners we're talking about -- the ones who raise their dogs to be vicious -- are doing it for one of two reasons: 1. to have it participate in dog fights, or 2. to use it as a status symbol.

Dogfighting is already illegal, so police are always on the lookout anyway. And a dog that's been acquired to be a status symbol will hardly do its job if it's kept hidden.

tooki

[tooki]

Originally Posted by vexborg

Thanks, I can only agree.

The dogs are not blame, but since they were let run out lose instead of their bastard owner walking them, then I would say they defaulted back to their predatory stage! The death of our wee guy (the sweetest and most gentle cat in the world) could have been avoided if the owner had taken care of his dogs, and not using them to boost his ego!

My wife and I are mourning our loss, but eventually we'll be able to put it behind us, and get on with life! Getting a wee new kitten to love and spoil. But it's never going to an outdoor cat, not in this neighborhood... Never!

We can't bring back Diego, crying doesn't help, now we need to remember him for the sweet cat he was - we'll only have the memories and his ashes!

You are to be commended for taking such a sensible view on things despite the awful circumstances.

My condolences about your kitty, and good luck with the new one.

tooki

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

I mean, it's like... that's all what pitbulls are good for. But you can't go wrong with a pug or a chihuahua.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by tooki

Huh? Millions of people keep strictly-indoor cats.

Sorry I meant cats can be indoor cats but goodluck keeping an indoor pitbull.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by ©öñFü$íóÑ

I mean, it's like... that's all what pitbulls are good for. But you can't go wrong with a pug or a chihuahua.

Uhh, no.

Perhaps you've never met a sweet pit bull. They make excellent pets, as both their above-average results in temperament testing, as well as the fact that they used to be referred to as "nanny dogs" on account of being good with kids, attest to.

They're sloppy drooly dogs.

Pugs are adorable but small and smelly. Chihuahuas are awful little yappy monsters that do nothing for me.

tooki

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Sorry I meant cats can be indoor cats but goodluck keeping an indoor pitbull.

I think keeping an indoor pit bull would qualify as abuse, since that is ignoring the breed's need for exercise.

But a responsible owner would keep the dog on a leash length appropriate for the individual dog's temperament, or use a muzzle or other device if needed.

tooki

[Monique]

Dogs need to wear liscense no. So every pitbull should be neuter that way that bad breed would die off.

They are truly the devil's dogs and need to be killed off humanly.

[tooki]

You haven't read a single thing in this thread, have you?

tooki

[pooka]

Man, sorry about the OP's pet.

Some of these comments are borderline retarded, though. Pitbulls aren't bad dogs. ****, most of them are pretty small and sweet compared to a lot of other breeds out there. Given then choice, I'd fight two pits vs one rottweiler.

Since some of my family are breeders (canines) I grew up around my share of large, mean dogs. Pits are pretty easy to beat into submission if they go nutty. Yeah, they bite and can crush the bones in your hands. So can a lab. Imagine a pissed off great dane. Not only do they have serious jaw power, they've got 150+lbs of muscle to bring a grown man to the ground. Hell, I've seen em take a van to the face and keep going.

I don't really have a point. Other than pitbulls are just dogs. Some have shitty owners. Theres your problem.

[tooki]

Great post, pooka.

tooki

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by pooka

Man, sorry about the OP's pet.

Some of these comments are borderline retarded, though. Pitbulls aren't bad dogs. ****, most of them are pretty small and sweet compared to a lot of other breeds out there. Given then choice, I'd fight two pits vs one rottweiler.

Since some of my family are breeders (canines) I grew up around my share of large, mean dogs. Pits are pretty easy to beat into submission if they go nutty. Yeah, they bite and can crush the bones in your hands. So can a lab. Imagine a pissed off great dane. Not only do they have serious jaw power, they've got 150+lbs of muscle to bring a grown man to the ground. Hell, I've seen em take a van to the face and keep going.

I don't really have a point. Other than pitbulls are just dogs. Some have shitty owners. Theres your problem.

Couldn't say it any better myself.

[Cody Dawg]

The CDC (Center for Disease Control) here in the United States classifies them as #1 on the list of dogs most responsible for dog bites.

There's a reason for that.

It may be because of the calibre of person that wants to own that dog (sorry, but it seems to me that the type of person who owns that dog is of a lower socioeconomic status, irresponsible, and has little or no education - and therefore an accompanying lack of respect for society and laws) is not the type of person that should own ANY dog because they don't control or take care of their dog(s). (Most of them shouldn't even be allowed to have kids, either.)

I have a feeling that if these people gravitated towards, say, American bulldogs we would see that the #1 dog responsible for dog bites would be American bulldogs.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by pooka

I'd fight two pits vs one rottweiler.

My grandmother owned a very sweet rottweiler.

[fowler]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I wanted to say I'm sorry for your loss. I lost a cat a few months back. He wasn't killed or anything like that (at least, I hope not), he just took off while I was on an internship in Seattle. It's hard when they've been around for so many years.. the thought of having to witness what your wife did is pretty bad..

[Y3a]

Get a shotgun and find the dogs and the owner. perform a close range killing of the dogs while the owner watches. Dare them to do anything. If they get voilent, do something like you saw in the first ROBOCOP movie. kill all of their other dogs too. They don't deserve them, and animal control has to put down all the bad dogs anyway. I know I sure would.

[pooka]

Originally Posted by pooka

Some of these comments are borderline retarded, though.

I'd say we've crossed the border.

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah?

Well, let me tell you something: I have friends up in Long Island who had small baby animals in their back yard (he rehabilitates animals) and the neighbor, who routinely lets her cats wander and does not control them, had one cat in particular that would sneak into their back yard and harass and kill the baby animals and birds he was taking care of.

He finally had had enough and he took the cat to the animal shelter and they euthanized the cat.

The cat was at animal control for three days and the owner never went to pick up the cat and it was euthanized. Why wasn't she worried about where her cat was? I mean, if you LOVE your animal and it is missing you check the animal shelters, right? She didn't. The reason? She was so accustomed to letting her animals/cats wander loose that not having one come back for two or three days was fine with her. She's an example of a person who shouldn't keep any animals.

But worse than that, guess what?

The local law enforcement charged the man who took her cat to the animal shelter with a crime! This woman (the cat owner) convinced them that he had been malicious about taking the cat in. It boggles my mind. This lady admits that she lets her cats wander freely into other peoples' yards, even if they are killing other animals including pets, yet she isn't held liable for that? Unbelievable!

And here I am, on my own porch, when a cat runs out from underneath my garden bench, bites me, then runs away...and I have to get rabies shots for it! I knew who the cat belonged to (a neighbor) but because animal control couldn't find or capture the cat I had to get rabies shots because the owner admitted that the cat had not had vaccinations.

Story link.

These are VERY nice people and they were just sick and tired of this woman's cat continually harassing and killing the animals they were taking care of in the back yard and the cat doing this had no identification and was not licensed and was wandering loose so they took it to animal control and it was euthanized and for trying to protect themselves and the animals they were taking care of they are now facing criminal charges.

So, when you tell people to take action themselves you better be careful because they may end up in jail over it.

[Landos Mustache]

I guess all we can do is see how well the ban works here in Ontario and take it from there.