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dfbennett · Jul 18, 2001, 08:12 PM

Hi,
Does anyone know if the scroll wheel will be implemented system wide (or atleast in all carbon apps) somehow in 10.1? I've heard some rumors about that and I'm not sure if it'll happen. Thanks for any info.

larkost · Jul 18, 2001, 09:33 PM

The answer to this is almost certainly a resounding no. The reason that Carbon apps don't work with a scroll wheel generically is that there is no generic scrolling window in the toolkit that everyone uses that can receive this sort of message. In Coccoa it is NSScrollView, and everyone uses it (or a subclass). If one of the big toolkits implements it for their generic scroll views, then you will see it in more apps. in other words, talk to MetroWorks on this one...

This is one of the big differences between the Functional Carbon and the Objective Coccoa.

Jul 18, 2001, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by larkost:
The answer to this is almost certainly a resounding no. The reason that Carbon apps don't work with a scroll wheel generically is that there is no generic scrolling window in the toolkit that everyone uses that can receive this sort of message. In Coccoa it is NSScrollView, and everyone uses it (or a subclass). If one of the big toolkits implements it for their generic scroll views, then you will see it in more apps. in other words, talk to MetroWorks on this one...

I think I remember reading back on one of the dev mailing lists the guy who wrote some mouse driver (USB Overdrive?) for classic Mac OS asking about doing the same sort of thing in OS X (which ruled over the Cocoa way, in that it was a lot more configurable) and being told by an Apple engineer that they wanted to avoid that sort of thing so that they could implement it properly this time. Of course, they then went on to ship the Finder and most Carbon apps without support (which is nominally there, but has to be supported on an app-by-app basis rather than being a system-wide feature like it is with Cocoa).

Personally I'll think it's broken until it's working in Classic as well as Carbon. Though maybe by the time 10.1 ships they'll have SCSI support in Toast X and Office X and Photoshop, etc. Well, one can hope.

neoTony · Jul 19, 2001, 12:30 AM

Carbon apps have to explicity call the scrollwheel stuff, so you're not really going to see it in any hybrid 9/X apps. However, IE and the Finder under 10.1 have scroll wheel support - and they are carbon, so yes, 10.1 will improve scroll wheel support...

dfbennett · Jul 19, 2001, 12:45 AM

In terms of USB Overdrive, the guy who wrote is says he's working on an X version. Would this version not be able to allow scroll wheels to work in carbon apps that don't support them? If so, that's a huge let down. There's nothing more embarassing then when people see my logitech optical wheel mouse and say "wow cool a mac with a scroll mouse. Why can't you scroll through that MP3 playlist using the wheel?". Hopefully they'll figure out a way(or atleast hopefully the majority of my apps will be cocoa or coded to support the wheel).

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: dfbennett ]

Moonray · Jul 20, 2001, 09:28 PM

What USB Overdrive does is not to confuse with scrollwheel support of an application. USB Overdrive is simply a shortcut between the scrollwheel of the mouse and the scrollbar of a window.

Carbon applications can support scrollwheels as well as multiple buttons, Apple does not provide a system wide mechanism for applications which don't support these themelves at the moment.

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dfbennett · Jul 21, 2001, 12:55 AM

So essentially what you're telling me is that unless Apple decides to implement it system wide(which I doubt they ever will) there is no way a third party application could allow the scroll wheel to be used system wide in applications that don't support it? That's a huge letdown. I'd think if it could be done in 9.1 it could be done in X(although probably without as much ease). Oh well hopefully someone will do it somehow. It's really annoying to be in an app and when you try and scroll only to find it's not supported.

Moonray · Jul 22, 2001, 09:55 PM

My doubts are with yours, though I'm still hoping, Apple will do a 3+ button scroll-wheel mouse in some future and things may change then. The question is whether an automaic mapping of the scroll wheel to the up/down widgets would break any existing app or not and if there's a way to determine which scrollbar to pick if you have more than one in the active window.

Generally it is much more difficult under OS X to access functions of another application than it was under the classic OS, at least I can't think of a clean way now. The guys doing Snapz Pro for OS X will have similar problems doing screenshots from foreign windows.

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JoeyA · Jul 22, 2001, 11:11 PM

When I went to MacWorld this past Friday I asked an Apple Rep if there would be system-wide scroll wheel support and he said, "Does the Apple Pro Mouse have a wheel? Exactly, then why should we have scroll wheel support in our system? Let the vendors take care of that. It�s their problem."

That sounds like no to me.

[ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: JoeyA ]

dfbennett · Jul 23, 2001, 01:06 AM

That logic seems very flawed to me. The Apple Pro Mouse doesn't have a second button, but second buttons are supported in Carbon and Cocoa apps. Also, if apple didn't want scroll wheel support at all, I tend to think it wouldn't be natively supported in Cocoa apps. I hope Appe or some third party can do system wide scroll wheel support otherwise I'm going to be very angry. I figure if they can do it in OS 9(via third party software) they should be able to do it in X.

Moonray · Jul 23, 2001, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by JoeyA:
When I went to MacWorld this past Friday I asked an Apple Rep if there would be system-wide scroll wheel support and he said, "Does the Apple Pro Mouse have a wheel? Exactly, then why should we have scroll wheel support in our system? Let the vendors take care of that. It�s their problem."

Seems you met a smartass there... You should have asked back why Apple has scroll wheel support in their libraries then

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JoeyA · Jul 23, 2001, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Moonray:


Seems you met a smartass there... You should have asked back why Apple has scroll wheel support in their libraries then

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He was a bit condesending. And I did call him on the second mouse button thing, citing that the Apple Pro Mouse doesn't have a second button but OS X supports it even in Classic. He just shrugged his shoulders.

Had I known about the libraries, I would have slapped him silly with it.

dfbennett · Jul 23, 2001, 05:28 PM

Perhaps that Apple rep didn't know his rear end from a hole in the ground then if he didn't know about scroll wheels being supported in apple's libraries. Perhaps then Apple will develop system wide scroll wheel support. With the number of Mac users buying multi button mice(and Apple selling multibutton mice in the Apple Store) you'd think they'd make it so that all the buttons and scroll wheel works system wide. It's really annoying how haphazardly the scroll wheel support in OS X is implemented.

Mediaman_12 · Jul 23, 2001, 05:40 PM

I have 'got' <cough>Carracho</cough> a copy of 10.1 (don't quite know which build) and the scroll wheel on my intellimouse works in a lot of apps, some which I think are carbon :a list: the Finder (yay), BBedit, text edit, Simple text (the one from the dev CD), Mail, IE & Omniweb.

Jul 23, 2001, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by dfbennett:
There's nothing more embarassing then when people see my logitech optical wheel mouse and say "wow cool a mac with a scroll mouse. Why can't you scroll through that MP3 playlist using the wheel?".

Nothing more embarrassing than a non-functional scrollwheel?

My, you havent lived at all. I knew a wife who was showing off her husband's weight loss to their guests. She grabbed his waistband and pulled outwards. The pants dropped. He wasn't wearing underwear. Now, that's embarrassing.

dfbennett · Jul 23, 2001, 08:44 PM

I love how people on this board take every comment literally and in the broadest way possible.