Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread"

Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 67)
Thread Tools
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 20, 2022, 02:39 PM
 
If someone believes we should not ban termination of ectopic pregnancies, what principles are involved which do not fit under the umbrella of “fairness” and “compassion”?

Don’t focus on the choice of words. Focus on the respective moral principles the two words aim to represent.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 22, 2022, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
In this context they should not be used synonymously.
When cutting cake, giving everyone equal slices is fair. I would not swap out the word just here, unless a court has decreed that someone divide the cake equally, after finding that someone was giving their friends bigger pieces.

You can be fair without a court. Can you be just?
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 23, 2022, 05:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
When cutting cake, giving everyone equal slices is fair. I would not swap out the word just here, unless a court has decreed that someone divide the cake equally, after finding that someone was giving their friends bigger pieces.

You can be fair without a court. Can you be just?
Some people can be both without a court. Some people can't be either. Feels like more and more of the latter in recent years. And those folks are so incapable of being just and fair they've been trying as hard as they can to stop courts being just and fair too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 25, 2022, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
When cutting cake, giving everyone equal slices is fair. I would not swap out the word just here, unless a court has decreed that someone divide the cake equally, after finding that someone was giving their friends bigger pieces.

You can be fair without a court. Can you be just?
Giving everyone equal pieces is justfied by the principle of fairness.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2022, 06:40 PM
 
Is an unfair court a just court? Isn’t the the whole premise of justice based on it being dispensed fairly?

If it’s unfair, it’s not justice anymore.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 27, 2022, 04:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Some people can't be either.
This is essentially my premise for the conservative side.

Fairness is not what conservatives consider when they formulate opinions on abortion. At least to anywhere near the extent liberals do. Conservatives have things that are more important to them than being fair.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2022, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is essentially my premise for the conservative side.

Fairness is not what conservatives consider when they formulate opinions on abortion. At least to anywhere near the extent liberals do. Conservatives have things that are more important to them than being fair.
I feel like the conservatives who were interested in fairness aren't really conservatives any more.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 29, 2022, 06:32 PM
 
Even for those conservatives, fairness takes a backseat to other considerations, just to a lesser extent. These “fair” conservatives have always wanted heavy restrictions on abortion.

To reiterate my thesis, when liberals consider their stance on abortion, the two important principles to them are compassion and fairness.

When conservatives consider abortion, they do in fact consider these principles, but they are in very stiff competition with other principles, and those principles end up winning.

Part of the problem here is for many reasons, some good, some bad, people won’t consider themselves unfair, so conservatives are never really being honest that their position really kinda is unfair.

When I say “their position”, I’m not just talking about abortion, I’m talking about all of them. At least, from the liberal frame of reference.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2022, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
When conservatives consider abortion, they do in fact consider these principles, but they are in very stiff competition with other principles, and those principles end up winning.

Thats certainly what we ought to think. And maybe it was true once upon a time. Or more true. Conservatives seem to be driven more by simple tribalism these days. This has arguably been truer for longer when it comes to religious based tribalism. Do they really agonise over whether a clump of cells or a potential life should be as cherished as an actual fully-fledged life? Or is it just "The church says no."? Or maybe "If liberals are for it, we're against it."?


Originally Posted by subego View Post
Part of the problem here is for many reasons, some good, some bad, people won’t consider themselves unfair, so conservatives are never really being honest that their position really kinda is unfair.

When I say “their position”, I’m not just talking about abortion, I’m talking about all of them. At least, from the liberal frame of reference.
Thats the real crux of it. Honesty. Liberals are still being mostly honest. Conservatives are not. Not with themselves, each other and definitely not liberals.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2022, 08:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Thats the real crux of it. Honesty. Liberals are still being mostly honest. Conservatives are not. Not with themselves, each other and definitely not liberals.
Absolutely. However, like I said, there are reasons behind this. Take this example.

I have numerous opinions which if I’m being honest are both unfair, and lack compassion.

I’m not using hyperbole when I say this truth hid itself from me for most of a lifetime, and it still frantically continues to try. I ask you to take me at my word I did not suffer this life of ignorance of my own volition. It took me so long to discover because it really is that difficult to discover, not a lack of honesty.

To continue in the vein of honesty, there was zero chance I could have discovered it on my own. The underlying framework hiding it from me needed to be pointed out, and even then, only through enormous effort could I chase it out of the shadows.

While there are many vile conservatives, there are also many conservatives who are as I was. They don’t speak the truth because they have yet to discover it, and the truth hides itself very effectively from them.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2022, 07:12 AM
 
I've come to understand that many, many people can believe two utterly contradictory things at the same time. It still doesn't make complete sense to me, but Its too plain to ignore. Like when you see people being racist, then denying they are racist in the next sentence. They don't want to be thought of as racist, because they no racism is bad, but they aren't willing to hear or understand that something they are saying, doing or thinking is racist.

I still really struggle though with the idea that when you are confronted with repeated facts that no sane person would deny, that utterly refute a number of your beliefs, you don't stop and start to question your overall outlook, your sources of information etc. Conservatism has become like a religion. Just listen to your leaders and do as they say and don't worry if it makes any sense or not.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2022, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I've come to understand that many, many people can believe two utterly contradictory things at the same time. It still doesn't make complete sense to me, but Its too plain to ignore. Like when you see people being racist, then denying they are racist in the next sentence. They don't want to be thought of as racist, because they no racism is bad, but they aren't willing to hear or understand that something they are saying, doing or thinking is racist.
The primary mechanism is actually very simple.

In terms of my own example, if someone accused me in the past of being either unfair or lacking in compassion, I would simply (and unconsciously) redefine the meaning of those terms in a way which let me off the hook.

Again, I ask you to take my word for it this was unconscious behavior, and there was no intentional deception involved.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2022, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I still really struggle though with the idea that when you are confronted with repeated facts that no sane person would deny, that utterly refute a number of your beliefs, you don't stop and start to question your overall outlook, your sources of information etc. Conservatism has become like a religion. Just listen to your leaders and do as they say and don't worry if it makes any sense or not.
Can you give me specific examples you have in mind?

That’s not a challenge. I’m only asking because a specific example allows for a more specific explanation.

(Also, it goes without saying everyone is free to offer their own examples )
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2022, 09:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Thats the real crux of it. Honesty. Liberals are still being mostly honest. Conservatives are not. Not with themselves, each other and definitely not liberals.
That’s a very succinct and apt summary of the situation.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
To continue in the vein of honesty, there was zero chance I could have discovered it on my own. The underlying framework hiding it from me needed to be pointed out, and even then, only through enormous effort could I chase it out of the shadows.

While there are many vile conservatives, there are also many conservatives who are as I was. They don’t speak the truth because they have yet to discover it, and the truth hides itself very effectively from them.
This is why I think I kept on discussing with you: I had an impression that while we sometimes lived in different universes (my feeling at least), you were not out of reach of reason. I think it is very brave what you do, you challenge your own preconceptions.

I reckon it is kinda hard for you and others like you: you must feel homeless.You probably don’t feel at home in either camp. But I think people like you fulfill an important role in society. In most other democracies, centrists like you are much more of the norm, and centrists are not being derided as being not ideologically pure (from either side).
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can you give me specific examples you have in mind?
The bit that has me worried about the US is that much of the positions conservatives flock to they seem to be attracted to, because they are in apparent opposition to “liberals”. Liberals are in favor of wide-spread vaccinations (including those elite virologists and epidemiologists who surely must be liberals, too), so the instinct is to be against them. Liberals claim that supposed cures like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are not effective against Covid-19 and could be dangerous, so conservatives push those. Their identity seems to be formed by being against liberals rather than being for something.

Very often it seems that arguments are made in bad faith: moral virtue is extolled, especially if the person you are talking about (claims to be) religious, but nobody minds if those politicians then lie, cheat and openly admire dictators and authoritarian regimes. Cladding yourself in Christianity as armor is hypocritical.

People in favor of a allowing abortions (under certain circumstances) are characterized as people who want to kill babies. Most people want to have kids, including those who are in favor of women’s right to choose. Perhaps if what you meant by “fairness” in your earlier posts is even considering the position of the pregnant woman, then yes, there is a lack of fairness. And you needn’t change your mind about abortions, but rather than just focussing on abolishing the procedure, you might also focus on the underlying reasons why women or couples decide to terminate a pregnancy (a lot of them are economic).

Ditto for fiscal “conservatism”, the tax cuts under the Trump administration blew a big hole in the budget, and fixing that is left to the Democrats who then have to raise taxes to reduce the budget.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 3, 2022, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can you give me specific examples you have in mind?

That’s not a challenge. I’m only asking because a specific example allows for a more specific explanation.

(Also, it goes without saying everyone is free to offer their own examples )
There are many videos floating around of people interviewing Trump supporters, then refuting the nonsense they spout to their faces. Some do this in a polite, respectful and level-headed way and those are the ones I'm citing. Often its lies being told about him, or by him and they just respond with "fake news" or if they are more agreeable, a polite "Well I don't think I agree with that". Theres no reasoning, logic, justification etc. Its purely cultism and refusal to adjust their worldview to fit reality.

In the UK we get similar examples when we discuss Brexit. The weird thing about this is that they don't use the easy get-out clauses they could by saying the dreadful effects of Brexit are down to covid, or the Ukraine war. They tend instead to claim that they knew all this would happen and were always ok with it. I have a hopeful feeling that is about to finally run out of steam. By October, our average household energy bills will have doubled inside a year while the energy companies' profits soar and potentially 14m+ brits will be living in relative poverty and struggling to feed themselves. Brexit was supposed to give us the power to prevent this sort of thing while countries in the EU have capped energy price increases to 8% (so far ours have gone up 54% with another similar rise due in October, right when the heating will start to be turned on). We need to get our government out and fast. They are absolutely wrecking everything. But still there are people who like them that shouldn't.

Theres definitely some of that tribalist, cultist behaviour where the Brexiters enjoy baiting and disagreeing with the sane folks. We have that same anti-wokism creeping into the zeitgeist. Or rather we had. I think the cost of living crisis might just consume all other stories quite soon.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 3, 2022, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Liberals are in favor of wide-spread vaccinations (including those elite virologists and epidemiologists who surely must be liberals, too), so the instinct is to be against them. Liberals claim that supposed cures like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are not effective against Covid-19 and could be dangerous, so conservatives push those. Their identity seems to be formed by being against liberals rather than being for something.
I am strongly against coercing people to be vaccinated by putting restrictions on them.

If I wasn’t forcing honesty out of myself, I’d spin this as a high-minded reaction to government overreach. I think this argument does in fact have merit, however it’s true purpose is to mask my honest opinion from both myself and others.

My honest opinion is I seek a quid pro quo with people who refuse to get vaccinated. I will overlook the danger they pose to themselves and others, and I expect them to return the favor when our roles have reversed.

If there’s anything high-minded about that, it’s a belief society is ultimately better off not making enemies of these people.


Edit: I’m not religious, but I imagine something similar plays a role with regards to the devout overlooking Trump’s moral transgressions. They are willing to overlook them in exchange for him not being actively hostile towards religion, and picking Supreme Court Justices who square with their agenda.

Yes… this is an undeniably worldly way of playing it.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 3, 2022 at 08:41 PM. )
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 3, 2022, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
There are many videos floating around of people interviewing Trump supporters, then refuting the nonsense they spout to their faces. Some do this in a polite, respectful and level-headed way and those are the ones I'm citing. Often its lies being told about him, or by him and they just respond with "fake news" or if they are more agreeable, a polite "Well I don't think I agree with that". Theres no reasoning, logic, justification etc. Its purely cultism and refusal to adjust their worldview to fit reality.
Here are the two reasons I would vote for Trump.

1) I do not have compassion for the people whose lives get ruined by the police.

2) I am not stung by the inequity of the police ruining lives. I mean this both figuratively and literally.

To be slightly more charitable to myself, it’s not like my sense of compassion and fairness are entirely absent, but they are completely overridden by my support for the police.


I’m not intending any snark here, but that’s probably not something I’d say on camera.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My honest opinion is I seek a quid pro quo with people who refuse to get vaccinated. I will overlook the danger they pose to themselves and others, and I expect them to return the favor when our roles have reversed.
I'm interested in this scenario. In what role-reversed situation do you see anti-vaxxers displaying compassion and self-sacrifice?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 09:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'm interested in this scenario. In what role-reversed situation do you see anti-vaxxers displaying compassion and self-sacrifice?
Any situation where they’d be inclined to shank me.

They’ll be less inclined to shank me because I didn’t shank them.

To put it another way, they will display compassion and self-sacrifice towards me because I’m on their team. Conservatives are team players.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Any situation where they’d be inclined to shank me.

They’ll be less inclined to shank me because I didn’t shank them.

To put it another way, they will display compassion and self-sacrifice towards me because I’m on their team. Conservatives are team players.
So you're trading my grandma's life for yours?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 09:40 AM
 
I can be dense. I’m not sure I understand.

I don’t think I’m sparing my grandma somehow.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I can be dense. I’m not sure I understand.

I don’t think I’m sparing my grandma somehow.
You're making it sound like a kind of hostage situation. You overlook their careless spreading of a pandemic that is still killing peoples' grandmas, and in return, you hope that when one of these people has to inconvenience themselves in order to help you out, they'll take your past approval of their behavior into consideration?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 04:15 PM
 
I feel a less convoluted* way to put it is I’m sacrificing grandma to not make an enemy.

The reasoning behind not making an enemy is to have them as an ally, or at least not have them come gunning for me like they would if I had made them an enemy.


*I’m not accusing you of making it convoluted.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I feel a less convoluted* way to put it is I’m sacrificing grandma to not make an enemy.

The reasoning behind not making an enemy is to have them as an ally, or at least not have them come gunning for me like they would if I had made them an enemy.
But then you're committing yourself to spending your entire life toeing the party line. There is no grace or forgiveness for speaking up when your conscience demands it. Toe the line, or we sic our mob on you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/u...ump-jan-6.html
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
There is no grace or forgiveness for speaking up when your conscience demands it. Toe the line, or we sic our mob on you.
There’s an important distinction between “not toeing the line” and “abandoning the team”.

If I don’t abandon the team, the team will let me do whatever the fuck I want, and they’ll cover me for it, even if it makes them look reprehensible.

Think of the way cops operate. It’s like that.
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here are the two reasons I would vote for Trump.

1) I do not have compassion for the people whose lives get ruined by the police.

2) I am not stung by the inequity of the police ruining lives. I mean this both figuratively and literally.

To be slightly more charitable to myself, it’s not like my sense of compassion and fairness are entirely absent, but they are completely overridden by my support for the police.


I’m not intending any snark here, but that’s probably not something I’d say on camera.
This is your genuine opinion? I'm not sure I appreciate the difference between the two reasons tbh. I definitely don't understand why either is a reason to vote for Trump over Biden. But that might be because there is some Biden policy regarding Chicago PD that I'm utterly unaware of.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This is your genuine opinion?
It is, but my brain puts a thick coating of rationalization on it to make it an easier pill to swallow. I can’t directly access that opinion unless I pry the coating off.

As for the difference between Trump and Biden, one of them has compassion for the people whose lives are ruined by the police, the other doesn‘t.

It’s that simple. Trump approaches this the way I do, Biden doesn’t.



Edit:

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm not sure I appreciate the difference between the two reasons tbh.
I can be bothered by someone being treated unfairly or inequitably, but at the same time feel no compassion for them. In this case it’s both the lack of compassion and being unmoved by the inequity.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 4, 2022 at 07:14 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 07:07 PM
 
Tr*mp could be associated with many, many qualities, but "compassion" and "empathy" are two that he has shown complete inability to even begin to comprehend.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 4, 2022, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Tr*mp could be associated with many, many qualities, but "compassion" and "empathy" are two that he has shown complete inability to even begin to comprehend.
See? You get it.

I’m surprised by how often me saying “I lack compassion, therefore I vote Trump” is met with “but what’s the difference between Trump and Biden on this?”

Wat




Edit: strictly speaking, I didn’t vote for Trump. I might have if I lived in a different state, so it can be argued this is a distinction without a difference. This is for 2020. I didn’t consider voting for him a possibility in 2016.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 03:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I am strongly against coercing people to be vaccinated by putting restrictions on them.
My take is different: choices often have consequences. Freedom is not about ensuring that choices do not have consequences. Just like free speech does not mean that my controversial opinions are shielded from criticism. If e. g. airlines or other businesses decide that they either impose restrictions or do not want to deal with unvaccinated, then during a pandemic, I’m fine with that.

The trick here for me is that life is not black and white: I’m neither for no restrictions nor super harsh restrictions. Different activities should have different rules.

Edit: I originally mistakenly posted this in the wrong thread. Thanks for letting me know, subego.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 05:11 AM
 
Yes. We are using entirely different moral constructs to arrive at our conclusions.

I submit yours is based in weighing the principles of compassion and fairness. The construct I’m using is more akin to a cop covering for another cop, which is decidedly lacking in fairness, and whatever compassion might be involved is being narrowly and inequitably applied.


Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Edit: I originally mistakenly posted this in the wrong thread. Thanks for letting me know, subego.
My pleasure!
( Last edited by subego; Apr 5, 2022 at 05:48 AM. )
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 05:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think you are jumping to the topic mandatory vaccinations with believing in and wanting vaccinations. I was only speaking of the latter, not the former.

Trump could have (inaccurately) made his victory dance around vaccines and the program he spearheaded. He could have told his maga acolytes that he promised a vaccine and delivered (no matter that the first vaccines were not developed in the US). I think this would have increased his re-election chances and would have saved thousands, if not tens of thousands of lives.
This is still orphaned in the Baldwin thread.

I haven’t avoided getting vaccinated, so for me to explain that thought process requires conjecture on my part. This is opposed to mandates, where I can directly analyze my own opinion.

As to the thought process of avoidance, I don’t think that came from Trump, except perhaps indirectly as a knock-on effect of his overall shitty attitude. Trump’s messaging was always pro-COVID vaccines. With regards to his campaign, the first vaccine wasn’t approved until a month after he lost, but that didn’t stop him from touting the “unbelievable vaccines” in the works during the election. He certainly never denigrated the idea in any way I’m aware.

The worst that can be pinned directly on him (IMO) is he chose not to share he took it himself.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 5, 2022 at 06:22 AM. )
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As to the thought process of avoidance, I don’t think that came from Trump, except perhaps indirectly as a knock-on effect of his overall shitty attitude. Trump’s messaging was always pro-COVID vaccines. With regards to his campaign, the first vaccine wasn’t approved until a month after he lost, but that didn’t stop him from touting the “unbelievable vaccines” in the works during the election. He certainly never denigrated the idea in any way I’m aware.

The worst that can be pinned directly on him (IMO) is he chose not to share he took it himself.
If I believe the consensus of scientists, I'll believe that it's important for me to get vaccinated. Trump spent every day from February 2020 onward contradicting, denigrating, and pushing anti-science alternatives to the consensus of scientists. Not to mention Trump's public history of anti-vax behavior.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7685699/

If you've been absolutely bathed in anti-science nonsense about "natural immunity" and how the pandemic is overblown and how masks don't work and how the Democrats are faking this disease to steal the election and Fauci is behind the whole thing and the pandemic isn't real, then why would you bother getting the vaccine?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 09:39 AM
 
This is what I was getting at with “knock-on effect of his overall shitty attitude”.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 09:42 AM
 
Let me dig a little deeper into my main point.

We had ancestors whose brains who came pre-loaded with the following belief system:

They believed the only valid reason to treat people unfairly is out of a sense of compassion. Likewise, they believed the only valid reason to lack compassion is out of a sense of fairness.

This is a fantastic survival adaptation, and was wildly successful. It forms the core of human morality, and for all intents and purposes is what drives human progress.

For all its virtue, this is a poor recipe for winning conflicts. We had ancestors who instead of having morals adapted for progress, they were adapted to win conflict. The core remains the same, but it’s subordinate to the practical concern of maintaining the cohesion necessary to win.

What maintains cohesion are authority structures, institutions like religion, and not throwing your own people under the bus even though they deserve it. Generally speaking, fairness and compassion get in the way of these things, so they get pushed aside.

This is conservatism in a nutshell. The belief in naked practicality (as represented by the three priorities I just mentioned) over progress.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 5, 2022 at 10:01 AM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 11:25 AM
 
That is not "conservatism". That is neoliberalism. The belief in naked egotism and personal advantage over any social responsibility.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 5, 2022, 03:57 PM
 
Maintenance of authority structures is neoliberalism?
Supporting religion is neoliberalism?
Refusal to throw your own team under the bus is neoliberalism?


Edit: the belief in egotism and personal advantage over social responsibility sounds like libertarianism to me.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 5, 2022 at 05:44 PM. )
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 02:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I submit yours is based in weighing the principles of compassion and fairness.
No, I'd say that people who are against it want all of the benefits of freedom of choice, but none of the consequences that come with their choices. They want to eat ice cream for desert every day and not get fat. I don't think that has anything to do with fairness, it is just selfish and myopic.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As to the thought process of avoidance, I don’t think that came from Trump, except perhaps indirectly as a knock-on effect of his overall shitty attitude. Trump’s messaging was always pro-COVID vaccines.
No, it wasn't and there are plenty of examples. Trump has always been pandering to the crowd, and if he senses that an anti-vax message is more successful for him (people love him more), then that is the stance he will take. So it is not a contradiction to Trump that while he is the first in line to get the vaccine, he has advocated for a host of “alternative cures” that were not endorsed by experts, by his experts. Prior to the pandemic, Trump espoused anti-vax non-sense quite openly. And he also stated that vaccinating children isn't necessary. Trump also kept on undermining the relevant scientific authorities, particularly Anthony Fauci.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 03:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, I'd say that people who are against it want all of the benefits of freedom of choice, but none of the consequences that come with their choices. They want to eat ice cream for desert every day and not get fat. I don't think that has anything to do with fairness, it is just selfish and myopic.
This reply doesn’t match subjects with what it’s replying to, so I’m not entirely sure what I’m supposed to be talking about.

Is the question you’d like addressed “on what basis do the unvaccinated demand to be treated like the vaccinated”?

Further, are you providing the answer “there is no basis… for them to want that is selfish and myopic”?

If I’m not hitting the target, by all means redirect my aim.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 04:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, it wasn't and there are plenty of examples. Trump has always been pandering to the crowd, and if he senses that an anti-vax message is more successful for him (people love him more), then that is the stance he will take. So it is not a contradiction to Trump that while he is the first in line to get the vaccine, he has advocated for a host of “alternative cures” that were not endorsed by experts, by his experts. Prior to the pandemic, Trump espoused anti-vax non-sense quite openly. And he also stated that vaccinating children isn't necessary. Trump also kept on undermining the relevant scientific authorities, particularly Anthony Fauci.
I very carefully qualified my claim so as to address in advance the bulk of the points made here.

First and foremost, I identified his shitty attitude (e.g., slap-fights with Fauci, telling people to drink bleach, etc.) as a vector. Likewise, I specified COVID vaccines because my statement doesn’t apply to his messaging with other vaccines.

The first sentence of the article you linked is “While former President Donald Trump has encouraged adults to get vaccinated against COVID-19…”

Can we blame Trump for people not wanting to get a COVID vaccine? Of course. At the same time, his direct messaging was always pro-COVID vaccines.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
First and foremost, I identified his shitty attitude (e.g., slap-fights with Fauci, telling people to drink bleach, etc.) as a vector. Likewise, I specified COVID vaccines because my statement doesn’t apply to his messaging with other vaccines.
I don't think this can be described as “shitty attitude”. Trump has said and done things that are contradictory or hypocritical, he'll say whatever he thinks will help him in the moment. Rather than cultivate trust in his administration, he undermined his own experts every step of the way.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The first sentence of the article you linked is “While former President Donald Trump has encouraged adults to get vaccinated against COVID-19…”
… which sets up a contraposition in the next subclause.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can we blame Trump for people not wanting to get a COVID vaccine? Of course. At the same time, his direct messaging was always pro-COVID vaccines.
Equally important to what Trump is saying and doing is what he is not saying and doing. Because Trump is a walking self-contradiction, you can cherry pick his comments in favor of vaccinations and say “Look, he is pro-vaccine.” But I don't think that describes Trump's behavior and his stances in its totality. Trump is constantly reading the crowd like a comedian, tries a few things and see what the crowd mirrors and what doesn't. So if his crowd is turning against vaccines, so does he.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is the question you’d like addressed “on what basis do the unvaccinated demand to be treated like the vaccinated”?
Many people who choose not to get vaccinated are irked by restrictions, be it restrictions imposed by private businesses or the government. They don't want to be confronted with the consequences of their actions, and I think this is not taking responsibility for your actions, which is the principle that underlies your freedom. My sister's boyfriend, for example, is super scared of contracting Covid and puts pressure on my sister to not go out too much — my sister is triply vaccinated and he chose not to get vaccinated. He did not agree with the French government's decision a few months back to require vaccinations for certain activities. Things like the First Amendment don't shield you from criticism if you are using your right to speech for being an asshole or being irresponsible.

If a company running cruise ships requires all passengers to be fully vaccinated, that's completely ok with me: there is solid reasoning behind it, Covid-19 is not endemic yet after all. And thus, I am not interested very much in hearing whining from people who choose not to get vaccinated.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I very carefully qualified my claim so as to address in advance the bulk of the points made here.
But it kind of came across as discounting the impact.

The absolute beauty of Trump, and likewise Republican politics for the past 50ish years, is that if you take the words they say at face value, it's very easy to claim a moral high ground, or at least discount their opponents as "reading into things too much." But that's the entire point of everything they do and say - drive conversations and policies and laws in a very specific direction, all while maintaining plausible deniability when it comes time to take responsibility for the outcomes of the actions.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
But it kind of came across as discounting the impact.

The absolute beauty of Trump, and likewise Republican politics for the past 50ish years, is that if you take the words they say at face value, it's very easy to claim a moral high ground, or at least discount their opponents as "reading into things too much."
Yup. Trump perfected the tactic of using gaslighting to deflect attention from an issue. If you can find Trump saying one thing and its opposite, it is very easy to always claim that “But Trump did say X!”
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 10:37 AM
 
That is standard right-wing argumentation tactics.

Our own fascist-populist right-wing party does the same: for every given subject (other than those informed by outright racism or xenophobia), you can find completely contradictory statements, and these will be trotted out by their sympathisers at various times, depending upon what the point is and whatever is most obviously in opposition to the political opponent.

And none of that bears any relation to what they actually DO, whose money they take, and which people they hire etc.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
it's very easy to claim a moral high ground
My entire thesis for the last 30 posts has been conservatives, myself included, arrive at their position by rejecting the principles of fairness and compassion.

That’s not claiming the moral high ground, it’s ceding it.

Like, repeatedly.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 6, 2022 at 11:03 AM. )
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My entire thesis for the last 30 posts has been conservatives, myself included, arrive at their position by rejecting the principles of fairness and compassion.

That’s not claiming the moral high ground, it’s ceding it.

Like, repeatedly.
That's why abortion is so important to them. No matter what horrific shit they pull, they need a tool that lets them point at Democrats and say, "They murder babies." Moral high ground achieved. You can see it in the language they've been trained to use when talking about the "Demoncrats."
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2022, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That's why abortion is so important to them. No matter what horrific shit they pull, they need a tool that lets them point at Democrats and say, "They murder babies." Moral high ground achieved. You can see it in the language they've been trained to use when talking about the "Demoncrats."
Let me make explicit something I’ve so far left as implication.

For all intents and purposes, every single conservative position is deficient in both compassion and fairness.

What this means is conservatives never have the moral high ground. That the position fails to occupy the moral high ground is a characteristic which defines it as conservative.

Take this further. The very meaning of “moral high ground” is quite literally whatever liberals say it is.


My brain pretty steadfastly insists I occupy the moral high ground. That’s how everyone’s brain works. The reality is a good number of my positions most emphatically don’t.

I ask you to take me at my word this is extremely difficult to approach constructively. My brain does a near flawless job of rationalizing these positions into the moral high ground. Like I said, I would never have been able to to discover this was happening on my own, and even being 100% convinced of it, I still have to actively fight it off.


The easiest way for a conservative to rationalize themselves into the moral high ground about abortion is compassion for the fetus. This has teeth because it’s following the rules. We can be unfair in the name of compassion. As an extra level of fuckery, because conservatives behave in an untrustworthy manner it forces liberals to take more extreme positions on abortion than they would otherwise… and that’s where conservatives bite. Right on a problem of their own creation.

The real reason conservatives hate abortion has nothing to do with compassion. Conservatives believe the role of women in society is to be baby factories. Hating abortion also supports religious interests, said interests helpfully believing women should be baby factories.

So, yes. Conservatives do disingenuously use abortion as a tool to claim the high ground when they have no right to it whatsoever, but they really do hate abortion on top of it. It’s just not why they say it is.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2022, 04:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
My sister's boyfriend, for example, is super scared of contracting Covid and puts pressure on my sister to not go out too much — my sister is triply vaccinated and he chose not to get vaccinated.
This is the wrong tactic to be using against me. I don’t have compassion for your sister’s plight, nor am I bothered by how unfair her situation is.

I can’t be made to feel these things.

However, I know exactly why I should feel these things, and I also know exactly why I don’t. For most conservatives there’s only a hazy, unconscious understanding of the former, and total obliviousness to the latter.

If that was the case with me, all your argument would do is piss me off. You’re confronting me with cognitive dissonance my brain refuses to acknowledge exists, and to maintain this delusion it lashes out at threats.

Thankfully, I do have an understanding of what’s going on, so you’re not pissing me off. It’s still not the right tactic though, because like I said, I can’t be made to feel the required compassion and sense of fairness. I mean, you tried, and I can tell you it didn’t work.

What is the proper strategy? I don’t know. I need to think about it. I’m not sure there is one per se. As I’ve been saying, the mechanism at play is the same which causes cops to cover for each other, and it’ll be as difficult to talk me down from this as it is difficult to talk cops down from how they behave.


FWIW, your sister’s boyfriend is a huge pussy, and deserves ceaseless bullying for it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2022, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There’s an important distinction between “not toeing the line” and “abandoning the team”.

If I don’t abandon the team, the team will let me do whatever the fuck I want, and they’ll cover me for it, even if it makes them look reprehensible.

Think of the way cops operate. It’s like that.
Cops require that you absolutely at all times fall in line. If you speak out even the tiniest bit, you're done.

https://www.wbrz.com/news/state-poli...s-termination/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...lowers/613687/

They don't stick up for each other, they don't actually care about each other, they only care about maintaining the authority structure. If you question that, you're out.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2022, 11:41 AM
 
When I say “cops cover for each other”, do you not know what I mean?

When cops punish whistleblowers, what those whistleblowers are being punished for is not covering.


Edit: cops care about maintaining the authority structure (as I do), but what they care about more is noted right up front in the Atlantic article: loyalty

Edit2: I assume you’re familiar with the term “the thin blue line”. That’s what I’m talking about.
( Last edited by subego; Apr 7, 2022 at 12:51 PM. )
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,