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Finally figured out the Tea Party movement
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finboy
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Sep 15, 2010, 12:36 PM
 
I think I've finally figured it out, and it looks like the plan is paying off.

The TP movement is going to do to LOCAL and STATE politics what Perot did to national politics in 1992 and what Nader & Greenies have tried to do since. Let's fragment the support of (in this case) the Right and see what kind of chaos that can create.

Nothing else makes sense, really. I know people are tired of the same old government, but starting fresh is probably going to solidify The Left's hold on everything in the political sphere.

It's working, it's working...

Thoughts?
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 15, 2010, 12:48 PM
 
3rd parties serve to demonstrate the degree of support for their causes. These causes get incorporated by mainstream candidates, even if the 3rd party candidates never go anywhere, because they can see how many votes it carries. It gives more information when looking at ballot returns.
     
finboy  (op)
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Sep 15, 2010, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
3rd parties serve to demonstrate the degree of support for their causes. These causes get incorporated by mainstream candidates, even if the 3rd party candidates never go anywhere, because they can see how many votes it carries. It gives more information when looking at ballot returns.
Good point. I agree that the Repubs have shifted Right over this, but it looks like there are going to be some significant Repub losses. We'll see. I just wonder how much of this "grass roots" is astroturfing from the Deep Left.
     
Person Man
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:07 PM
 
The Tea Party isn't really a third party, though. They're just pushing the Republicans farther to the right than they already are (or traditionally have been). That's not to say that they won't try to form a third party. If they don't get what they want the Republicans may just split into Far Right and Moderate factions that become separate political parties with time.

We've spent much of the last 10 years with the Executive Branch and Congress both controlled by the same party that both sides have forgotten how to work together and it becomes easy to just polarize. Why bother to reach out to the party in power if the party in power is powerful enough to do things despite the minority power's objections?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:08 PM
 
I agree with their concept of what they're doing, but I believe their ideology has the possible side-effect of allowing their liberal opponents to appeal more easily to moderates by comparison.

From what little I've read on Delaware, Tea-partiers have thrown-out a moderate candidate (a re-elected republican in a blue state) for a chance with their own. I don't enough about the old republican to make a legit call as to how moderate he really was, but on the surface it looks dumb.

To me, this highlights some of the problems with the primary system. Still, I'm a little curious why tea-partiers didn't run as their own party. Tactically speaking, I understand, but ideologically speaking it seems disingenuous. The entire point is they're fed up with the candidates that make up the current parties.
     
Person Man
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Good point. I agree that the Repubs have shifted Right over this, but it looks like there are going to be some significant Repub losses. We'll see. I just wonder how much of this "grass roots" is astroturfing from the Deep Left.
It will be interesting to see what moderate Republicans think of this. There have to be plenty who find the Tea Party-endorsed candidates to be too far to the right.
     
ort888
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:10 PM
 
So now people think that the Tea Party is being secretly supported by the Left? Nice.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Person Man
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Still, I'm a little curious why tea-partiers didn't run as their own party. Tactically speaking, I understand, but ideologically speaking it seems disingenuous. The entire point is they're fed up with the candidates that make up the current parties.
I think they're thinking that all Republicans are going to vote for their candidates and that there's no such thing as a "moderate Republican."

I know a couple people who have always been dyed-in-the-wool Republicans and have never voted Democrat in their lives who are seriously considering voting for Democrats because some of the candidates coming out of the primaries are so far to the right that even they are uncomfortable with them.

We'll find out in November. If their strategy doesn't work, then the Tea Party will probably turn into its own political party in 2012.
     
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
So now people think that the Tea Party is being secretly supported by the Left? Nice.
That's ridiculous, I agree.
     
besson3c
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Sep 15, 2010, 01:36 PM
 
I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, I know that this is absolutely debatable, but I can't get past the idea that the tea party movement is in part an uprising of the trailer park crowd, of the average to below average intelligent (or, more accurately, people who choose not to utilize the intelligence they have) who are most affected by the economic crisis.

I say this because the movement from my perspective looks so wholly unfocused and almost entirely emotional based. Their frustration is real and valid, but taking it from mass protest to actually becoming a party is where it needs some focus and a coherent and actionable plan which it seems to lack.

Then again, the same can be said for many people who identify themselves as Republicans wanting monumental changes as well. Having a philosophy does not equal an actionable, coherent plan. You still need to come up with the practical details and a complete strategy that is not filled with gaping holes.

I shouldn't say that there is *no* strategy and that all of these strategies are filled with gaping holes, but my point is that the tea party also seems to be fueled by philosophy rather than concrete ideas we can actually implement without negative consequences and a whole host of ramifications.
     
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Sep 15, 2010, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
So now people think that the Tea Party is being secretly supported by the Left? Nice.
There's been rumours knocking around for years that UKIP, the UK's second right-wing party, is leftist created/funded in order to split the vote.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 15, 2010, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
of the average to below average intelligent (or, more accurately, people who choose not to utilize the intelligence they have) ...

... wholly unfocused and almost entirely emotional based.

... the same can be said for many people who identify themselves as [Democrats] wanting monumental changes as well. ... You still need to come up with the practical details and a complete strategy that is not filled with gaping holes.

... fueled by philosophy rather than concrete ideas we can actually implement without negative consequences and a whole host of ramifications.
That's exactly what Big Mac, BadK0sh, abe, etc say about you, you fuzzy dem\lib! Maybe you should put a little more effort into resisting stereotypes and partisan hackery, like you're always paying lip-service to.

You're just still caught up on the tea-bagging joke (I admit, it seems like they named it just to tempt you, personally. Be strong besson3c!).
     
besson3c
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Sep 15, 2010, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
That's exactly what Big Mac, BadK0sh, abe, etc say about you, you fuzzy dem\lib! Maybe you should put a little more effort into resisting stereotypes and partisan hackery, like you're always paying lip-service to.

You're just still caught up on the tea-bagging joke (I admit, it seems like they named it just to tempt you, personally. Be strong besson3c!).

I figured I'd get some of this. Just to reiterate what I wrote in my first paragraph:

I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, I know that this is absolutely debatable
I don't actually think what I wrote is true, but it has been somewhat true for me based on my perceptions. I'm not claiming my perceptions to be in line with reality.
     
smacintush
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Sep 15, 2010, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, I know that this is absolutely debatable, but I can't get past the idea that the tea party movement is in part an uprising of the trailer park crowd, of the average to below average intelligent (or, more accurately, people who choose not to utilize the intelligence they have) who are most affected by the economic crisis.

I say this because the movement from my perspective looks so wholly unfocused and almost entirely emotional based. Their frustration is real and valid, but taking it from mass protest to actually becoming a party is where it needs some focus and a coherent and actionable plan which it seems to lack.

Then again, the same can be said for many people who identify themselves as Republicans wanting monumental changes as well. Having a philosophy does not equal an actionable, coherent plan. You still need to come up with the practical details and a complete strategy that is not filled with gaping holes.
Argument from Intimidation:
"There is a certain type of argument which, in fact, is not an argument, but a means of forestalling debate and extorting an opponent’s agreement with one’s undiscussed notions. It is a method of bypassing logic by means of psychological pressure . . . [It] consists of threatening to impeach an opponent’s character by means of his argument, thus impeaching the argument without debate. Example: “Only the immoral can fail to see that Candidate X’s argument is false.” . . . The falsehood of his argument is asserted arbitrarily and offered as proof of his immorality.

In today’s epistemological jungle, that second method is used more frequently than any other type of irrational argument. It should be classified as a logical fallacy and may be designated as “The Argument from Intimidation.”

The essential characteristic of the Argument from Intimidation is its appeal to moral self-doubt and its reliance on the fear, guilt or ignorance of the victim. It is used in the form of an ultimatum demanding that the victim renounce a given idea without discussion, under threat of being considered morally unworthy. The pattern is always: “Only those who are evil (dishonest, heartless, insensitive, ignorant, etc.) can hold such an idea.”

I shouldn't say that there is *no* strategy and that all of these strategies are filled with gaping holes, but my point is that the tea party also seems to be fueled by philosophy rather than concrete ideas we can actually implement without negative consequences and a whole host of ramifications.
Philosophy is what caused this mess, and it is the only thing that can get us out. It is the basis from which concrete policies are made. So while I don't wholly agree with the philosophy of the Tea Partiers, I recognize that creating or encouraging a philosophic shift is exactly the right strategy.

The good news is, theirs is at least somewhat in the correct direction.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 15, 2010, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I figured I'd get some of this. Just to reiterate what I wrote in my first paragraph:

I don't actually think what I wrote is true, but it has been somewhat true for me based on my perceptions. I'm not claiming my perceptions to be in line with reality.
That's crap. That's exactly the same kind of stupendousman Glenn Beck crap that you are constantly complaining about around here. If you really don't think that it's true, you wouldn't bring it up.

"I know it's not true, but just can't get past the idea that Mexicans are lazy and stupid. It sure is true in my experience. hur hur hur." Yeah, right. See if you can guess which part of that sentence is honest and which part isn't.
     
besson3c
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Sep 15, 2010, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
That's crap. That's exactly the same kind of stupendousman Glenn Beck crap that you are constantly complaining about around here. If you really don't think that it's true, you wouldn't bring it up.

"I know it's not true, but just can't get past the idea that Mexicans are lazy and stupid. It sure is true in my experience. hur hur hur." Yeah, right. See if you can guess which part of that sentence is honest and which part isn't.

I brought it up to get a conversation going about perceptions, because a lot of the work involved in getting some gravity towards a new party like this is the creation of public perception. I just shared mine, that's all.

smacintush: I don't see any real evidence or concrete argument as to why our political philosophies need a radical change, they have served us well for many years, and I do not see the compelling reason why they could not continue to serve us in the future after several of the corrections to our systems that are badly needed have been implemented. This is sort of like having a (fixable) problem with your Mac and then advocating that the only solution is to ditch the platform altogether. Our basic approach of splitting public and private sectors has not only succeeded here, but in many other countries as well (many of which have an even stronger public sector than we do).
     
smacintush
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Sep 15, 2010, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I brought it up to get a conversation going about perceptions, because a lot of the work involved in getting some gravity towards a new party like this is the creation of public perception. I just shared mine, that's all.

smacintush: I don't see any real evidence or concrete argument as to why our political philosophies need a radical change, they have served us well for many years, and I do not see the compelling reason why they could not continue to serve us in the future after several of the corrections to our systems that are badly needed have been implemented. This is sort of like having a (fixable) problem with your Mac and then advocating that the only solution is to ditch the platform altogether. Our basic approach of splitting public and private sectors has not only succeeded here, but in many other countries as well (many of which have an even stronger public sector than we do).
No, it is like having a flaw in design philosophy that gets in the way of creating a quality product. There may be ways to alleviate the problem, but in the end the design will need to change. It's the classic form-over-function problem.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
besson3c
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Sep 15, 2010, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
No, it is like having a flaw in design philosophy that gets in the way of creating a quality product. There may be ways to alleviate the problem, but in the end the design will need to change. It's the classic form-over-function problem.
Did you feel the same way 10-15 years ago or so? If not, what has changed since?
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 15, 2010, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I brought it up to get a conversation going about perceptions, because a lot of the work involved in getting some gravity towards a new party like this is the creation of public perception. I just shared mine, that's all.
So... for example in the Rachel Maddow Sex Change thread, you admire stupendousman for "getting the conversation going?"

smacintush: ...
This is sort of like having a (fixable) problem with your Mac and then advocating that the only solution is to ditch the platform altogether.
I think a better analogy would be reformat/reinstall, or trashing an app's preferences files instead of trying to restore them piecemeal.

The idea that you can't reduce government without ditching the proverbial platform is exactly what has the teapartiers' panties in a bunch in the first place. Ballooning government should be a give and take, not a give give give. The way it is now, there's no going back, there's no remedy if a government enlargement turns out to be a mistake. If we try to take such a remedy, you call it "ditching the platform." That's the problem.
     
besson3c
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Sep 15, 2010, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
So... for example in the Rachel Maddow Sex Change thread, you admire stupendousman for "getting the conversation going?"

My only problem with stupendousman in that thread is his irrational and unreasonable opinions about the images that the genders are supposed to convey. If he were presenting these as only true for him, that would have also been different.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 15, 2010, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
My only problem with stupendousman in that thread is his irrational and unreasonable opinions about the images that the genders are supposed to convey.
Huh? How is "butch girls are mentally ill" more irrational and unreasonable than "teapartyists are stupid, emotional, incoherent, unfocused trailer-trash filled with gaping holes?"
They sound pretty on par with each other to me

If he were presenting these as only true for him, that would have also been different.
Like you, he said they were NOT true for him. Your "I know this is incorrect, but" and his "I'm not suggesting I'm asking" are two peas in a pod.
     
besson3c
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Sep 15, 2010, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Huh? How is "butch girls are mentally ill" more irrational and unreasonable than "teapartyists are stupid, emotional, incoherent, unfocused trailer-trash filled with gaping holes?"
They sound pretty on par with each other to me


Like you, he said they were NOT true for him. Your "I know this is incorrect, but" and his "I'm not suggesting I'm asking" are two peas in a pod.

Maybe so...

At any rate, I wasn't intending to debate this a whole lot cause I don't really care about the tea party a whole lot to devote time to this. Maybe it was wrong of me to put my thoughts out there.
     
Shaddim
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Sep 15, 2010, 09:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
So now people think that the Tea Party is being secretly supported by the Left? Nice.
I think they're supported by the crumpets and cookie lobby. Discuss™.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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ebuddy
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Sep 15, 2010, 09:57 PM
 
The Tea Party is unrefined, but not unintelligent. They literally represent ALL walks of life. They are mainstream. They may in fact be a creation of the left, but not in the way some have proposed here. If they're perceived as astro-turf at all it's for not addressing and alienating the antagonist plants trying to paint it as such. The idea that this movement represents the "far right" because they want accountability for reckless and dishonest representation in Washington is preposterous IMO. The champions of the movement are as vocal about their opposition to the Republican establishment as they are the Democratic establishment. Their behavior as an electorate is the most honest you'll see in this country.

anti-establishment; the new far right.
ebuddy
     
Dork.
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Sep 15, 2010, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
To me, this highlights some of the problems with the primary system. Still, I'm a little curious why tea-partiers didn't run as their own party. Tactically speaking, I understand, but ideologically speaking it seems disingenuous. The entire point is they're fed up with the candidates that make up the current parties.
If a Tea Party candidate runs on their own line, they're limited to the funds the Tea Party can raise, and may not be considered serious enough to be included in any debates. When they win a Major Party primary, they get access to a lot more funds, and a guaranteed debate slot. And lets face it, Tea Partiers are more likely to win Republican primaries than Democratic ones.

In New York, the Tea Party candidate (Paladino) won the Republican Primary for Governor. But the mainstream Republican he beat (Lazio) is still running on the Conservative line, which pretty much guarantees that the right-wing vote will get split, making the Democratic candidate (Cuomo) even more of a shoo-in than he already is. (Not that any of them are any good. I call them Tweedle-dee, Tweedle-dumb, and Tweedle-dumber. Things are so bad I'm thinking of making a write-in vote for Paterson.)
     
finboy  (op)
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Sep 15, 2010, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, I know that this is absolutely debatable, but I can't get past the idea that the tea party movement is in part an uprising of the trailer park crowd, of the average to below average intelligent (or, more accurately, people who choose not to utilize the intelligence they have) who are most affected by the economic crisis.
A couple of things 1) that's what Big Media wants you to believe, and 2) that isn't my experience with it. The Tea Party folks I've been around are either average Joes or on the top end of the spectrum. The down-and-outs don't have time to protest, they're too busy working for a living. That's how it is around here, at least.

And yeah, astroturfing isn't out of the realm of possibilities here. I'm sure we'll find out down the road that some of the Tea Party dissent is Left-funded. I'd bet money on it.
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 12:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
A couple of things 1) that's what Big Media wants you to believe, and 2) that isn't my experience with it. The Tea Party folks I've been around are either average Joes or on the top end of the spectrum. The down-and-outs don't have time to protest, they're too busy working for a living. That's how it is around here, at least.

And yeah, astroturfing isn't out of the realm of possibilities here. I'm sure we'll find out down the road that some of the Tea Party dissent is Left-funded. I'd bet money on it.

I wouldn't know what Big Media wants me to believe because I don't have or watch cable.

This impression has largely been fueled by some of the quotes from the rallies, and what some of the tea party supported candidates have said. At least some of them have seemed rather out there to me.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 16, 2010, 01:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
If a Tea Party candidate runs on their own line, they're limited to the funds the Tea Party can raise, and may not be considered serious enough to be included in any debates. When they win a Major Party primary, they get access to a lot more funds, and a guaranteed debate slot. And lets face it, Tea Partiers are more likely to win Republican primaries than Democratic ones.
What's that, Lassie? More flaws in the system?!
     
ebuddy
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Sep 16, 2010, 06:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I wouldn't know what Big Media wants me to believe because I don't have or watch cable.
Why is whether or not you have or watch cable relevant?

This impression has largely been fueled by some of the quotes from the rallies, and what some of the tea party supported candidates have said. At least some of them have seemed rather out there to me.
Honest question, where are you getting the quotes from the rallies and what are some of the Tea Party supported candidates saying?
ebuddy
     
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Sep 16, 2010, 09:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, I know that this is absolutely debatable, but I can't get past the idea that the tea party movement is in part an uprising of the trailer park crowd, of the average to below average intelligent (or, more accurately, people who choose not to utilize the intelligence they have) who are most affected by the economic crisis.

I say this because the movement from my perspective looks so wholly unfocused and almost entirely emotional based. Their frustration is real and valid, but taking it from mass protest to actually becoming a party is where it needs some focus and a coherent and actionable plan which it seems to lack.

Then again, the same can be said for many people who identify themselves as Republicans wanting monumental changes as well. Having a philosophy does not equal an actionable, coherent plan. You still need to come up with the practical details and a complete strategy that is not filled with gaping holes.

I shouldn't say that there is *no* strategy and that all of these strategies are filled with gaping holes, but my point is that the tea party also seems to be fueled by philosophy rather than concrete ideas we can actually implement without negative consequences and a whole host of ramifications.
Dude. Seriously?

You are so full of crap sh!t must come out of your eyes when you cry.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
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Sep 16, 2010, 10:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I figured I'd get some of this. Just to reiterate what I wrote in my first paragraph:

I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, I know that this is absolutely debatable
Translation:

I know I'm gonna walk into a pile of shit, and then put that foot in my mouth.
It's just who I am in the PWL.

-t
     
dcmacdaddy
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Sep 16, 2010, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
3rd parties serve to demonstrate the degree of support for their causes. These causes get incorporated by mainstream candidates, even if the 3rd party candidates never go anywhere, because they can see how many votes it carries. It gives more information when looking at ballot returns.
THIS.

Unless/Until we adopt a parliamentary system of government we will never have a 3rd party that is on par, in terms of size and membership, with the two main parties in this country. Having said that, I think that any organized group of people making their voice heard in the political process is a good thing.

And while I disagree with most ideals espouses by the Tea Party, I like the energy and intensity they bring to the political scene in this country. A big part of me hopes a lot of the Tea Party candidates make it all the way to Washington so they can a) see first-hand just how screwed up is the political process in this country and b) force a serious debate on out-of-control government spending among the electorate. I still maintain a small amount of hope that if you explain to people all the ramifications of government spending the citizenry will be more inclined to want selective spending cuts* than across-the-board spending cuts.


*Some examples of this are below.
--Raise the retirement age and means test for Social Security instead of seeking to end outright government control of Social Security via privatization.
--Changing the way many of our government agencies work to focus solely on regulatory oversight instead of business promotion.
(Why doe the FAA devote a large chunk of its funding to promoting the US aviation business? It is not the government's job to do business promotion; It should just be doing airline safety.)
--Close many of our overseas military bases, bring the troops home, and give them all a permanent 5% pay raise.
(I have also advocated mandating two years of military service for ALL capable citizens to be performed between the ages of 18 and 26.)
--Combine Medicaid and Medicare into FedCare, a national health care plan administered by the federal government. People could buy into FedCare as either a supplement to their existing health care or as a replacement for it. It would cover all basic preventative and recuperative services and nothing more.
(The medical board societies would determine what constitutes "basic preventative and recuperative services" for their individual specialties.)
--Modify how federal transportation dollars are spent. The federal government would pay for the initial building of major transportation infrastructure projects but states would have to pay for ongoing maintenance AND additions.
(As it stands now, if a state wants to widen a pre-existing interstate it can get federal funds to do it. Those expansions should be paid for by the state.)
--Eliminate most of the Department of Education.
(It should serve only to help states coordinate and/or unify their teaching standards so their is some consistency in educational standards across the country.)
--Eliminate most of the Department of Commerce.
(The federal government should not be in the business of business promotion. That is what businesses should be doing.)
--Eliminate the NEA and NEH.
--As for the Smithsonian, either give it sufficient funds to care for all its collections--It needs a one-time funding of $2Billion dollars to build modern, state-of-the-art collections storage facilities for its 160million+ objects--or allow it to charge a fee for admission to produce extra revenue to care for the collections.
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Sep 16, 2010 at 10:50 AM. )
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
finboy  (op)
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Sep 16, 2010, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I wouldn't know what Big Media wants me to believe because I don't have or watch cable.
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why is whether or not you have or watch cable relevant?
It's the biggest big media catalyst, although I agree that just reporting on not having cable was not an accurate way to claim to not be plugged into big media.

Honest question, where are you getting the quotes from the rallies and what are some of the Tea Party supported candidates saying?
Well, the Christine O'Donnell quote on masturbating = adultery thing has pretty much gone viral, for instance. I'm not sure I can identify a single source though... Maybe the HuffPo? It's nothing something that is of great interest to me, I think I learned about the Christine O'Donnell thing via osmosis, or maybe on the Colbert Report or something.
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 03:01 PM
 
Whatever guys, if my perceptions are off, just say so... My only point is that perceptions are relevant, and I think mine are not all that uncommon. They don't have to be accurate to carry influence.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 16, 2010, 03:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
They don't have to be accurate to carry influence.
Is that your entire problem with Fox News?
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is that your entire problem with Fox News?

Entire, no...
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 16, 2010, 03:45 PM
 
Main?
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Main?

No, I don't think I'd even say that...
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 16, 2010, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Whatever guys, if my perceptions are off, just say so... My only point is that perceptions are relevant, and I think mine are not all that uncommon. They don't have to be accurate to carry influence.
Come on besson. There's a common perception that gays are all sex-crazed child molesters. Do you think it would be good for anyone if I felt the need to go into every gay-related thread on MacNN and be all like "I know it's not true, but I just can't get over the fact that gays are all sex-crazed child molesters. And straights who support gay marriage will burn in hell."

???

Do you think saying that might earn me some well-deserved ridicule?
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Come on besson. There's a common perception that gays are all sex-crazed child molesters. Do you think it would be good for anyone if I felt the need to go into every gay-related thread on MacNN and be all like "I know it's not true, but I just can't get over the fact that gays are all sex-crazed child molesters. And straights who support gay marriage will burn in hell."

???

Do you think saying that might earn me some well-deserved ridicule?

I think you're projecting a little in asserting that I ever used the word "fact".

Secondly, if the tea party (or anybody else) want to form a grand movement, they are going to have to deal with their perceptions. Perpetuating idiotic and unreasonable notions like the gays = child molesters thing does not seem comparable to equating several of the tea party candidates to the intellect of Sarah Palin (who also suffers from a perception being perpetuated that she is an intellectual lightweight). Do you have the same problems with people perpetuating these same sorts of things about Palin or Beck (or that they are saviors and great truth tellers, depending on your politics)? About how George Bush was a simpleton as well? About how John Kerry was an inconcise out-of-touch liberal? About how O'Reilly and Limbaugh are aggressive lying blowhards (or great truth tellers, depending on your politics)? Obama being hollow? The list goes on...
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 16, 2010, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think you're projecting a little in asserting that I ever used the word "fact".

Secondly, if the tea party (or anybody else) want to form a grand movement, they are going to have to deal with their perceptions. Perpetuating idiotic and unreasonable notions like the gays = child molesters thing does not seem comparable to equating several of the tea party candidates to the intellect of Sarah Palin (who also suffers from a perception being perpetuated that she is an intellectual lightweight).
You're generalizing. Guilt by association.

Do you have the same problems with people perpetuating these same sorts of things about Palin or Beck (or that they are saviors and great truth tellers, depending on your politics)? About how George Bush was a simpleton as well? About how John Kerry was an inconcise out-of-touch liberal? About how O'Reilly and Limbaugh are aggressive lying blowhards (or great truth tellers, depending on your politics)? Obama being hollow? The list goes on...
The list! Perfect example! Do you remember your list? Here's one of many sightings:
http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...a/#post3754249
You certainly "had a problem with people perpetuating those same sorts of things." You were on a frickin crusade over it. I think you were right back then. Those petty complaints were a lame attempt to distract and deflect from issues that were actually important, just like what you're now doing here.
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 06:05 PM
 
Yeah, that was an awesome list

You're still not getting what I'm saying though... That I have opinions and perceptions on certain politicians is not abnormal, we all do. Of these sorts of opinions and perceptions some of them are going to be deemed unreasonable or unfair (such as Obama being an unpatriotic socialist), the list I came up with in that thread is a collection of arguments I put into that category. If you feel that my opinions and perceptions of the tea party belong in that category, conversation over, that is perfectly valid and maybe my ideas are unreasonable and worth my reconsideration.

However, right now I feel that my ideas are in the reasonable perceptions category. The list that you quoted in this thread within your last post are also, arguably reasonable perceptions. Perhaps not all of them, but I'm far from the only one that thinks that Bush and Palin are not the sharpest people, for instance. For starters, the whole late night entertaining industry seems to be with me on this. Are these unfair? Maybe, but this is a very common and popular perception and one that is going to affect Palin if she ever decides to run for something again. If the perception that Obama is a socialist commie or whatever somehow becomes widely prevalent it still wouldn't make it correct, but still a perception problem that Obama would have to deal with.

If you want to claim that my perceptions are unreasonable, fine. If you want to claim that they aren't terribly common, fine. If you want to claim that I'm doing the guilt by association thing, also fine. Obviously a large group like this is going to be complicated by proxies and figuring out who should represent them. However, I don't think there is wrong with acknowledging the idea that there are perceptions that exist, some of which may not be grounded in completely unreasonable rationalizations. For instance, there are several tea party candidates who have said some rather crazy shit.

I'm far from the only one who has been led to think that there are many not-so-bright and rather out-there people involved in the tea party.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Sep 16, 2010, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
some of them are going to be deemed unreasonable or unfair, the list I came up with in that thread is a collection of arguments I put into that category. If you feel that my opinions and perceptions of the tea party belong in that category, conversation over, that is perfectly valid and maybe my ideas are unreasonable and worth my reconsideration.
Um....wut?
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I know this is incorrect, I know this is unfair, ...

I'm far from the only one who has been led to think that there are many not-so-bright and rather out-there people involved in the tea party.
When you know you're being led around by the nose, generally you resist, you become skeptical, critical, wary, you don't fall for it hook line and sinker. Sheesh.

Also, it's the hypocrisy. You're the only one who complains about the partisanship, and then you do it anyway. Plenty of people are bitterly partisan, but they're not pretending to be above partisanship. IOW, unlike them, you should know better. I have higher expectations of you.
     
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Sep 16, 2010, 06:37 PM
 
The Tea Party movement is easy to understand:

(10% unemployment + anemic GDP growth) x 3 years = angry populist conservatives.

If the "Deep Left" (whatever that is) knew how to create phony conservative activists to destabilize the Repub Party, why didn't they use this tactic in 2000, 2002, 2004, or 2006, back when the party was strong and actually needed to be destabilized?

If you're still having difficulty "figuring out" the Tea Party, try hanging around small business owners or young people trying to find jobs and start families, and you may start to understand the disaffection sweeping the nation.
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Um....wut?




When you know you're being led around by the nose, generally you resist, you become skeptical, critical, wary, you don't fall for it hook line and sinker. Sheesh.

Also, it's the hypocrisy. You're the only one who complains about the partisanship, and then you do it anyway. Plenty of people are bitterly partisan, but they're not pretending to be above partisanship. IOW, unlike them, you should know better. I have higher expectations of you.

Now you're just picking apart my choice of words...

I'm not sure how my sharing of my perceptions of the tea party (which claims to be bipartisan) based on the ideas they have represented makes me a partisan, but okay... I would say that a partisan wants not necessarily their ideas to succeed, but their party no matter what is said and done, and somebody that rarely provides any concessions that might harm their party. There is nothing wrong with having opinions, and as a non-partisan/independent I believe you should be more interested in conveying your own ideas without giving a rat's ass as to whether they have been championed by one party or another. I just happen to have not been impressed with the admittedly few ideas that I have been exposed to by way of the tea party movement, that's all. Perhaps we have a different idea of what the word "partisan" constitutes?

If I had to do it again, I would have left it up to somebody else to bring up the issue of perceptions to avoid all of this. It's not like I'm the only one with perceptions on them, but I should have foreseen this sort of blowback.
     
finboy  (op)
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Sep 16, 2010, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
If you're still having difficulty "figuring out" the Tea Party, try hanging around small business owners or young people trying to find jobs and start families, and you may start to understand the disaffection sweeping the nation.
I got that, that's what I see here in TX. But the net effect is going to be to split races. So Republicans will end up losing to Democrats in some races. How does that help the conservative cause?

I'm no fan of the current crop of Republicans OR Demoncrats, but splitting the Republican base right now just seems really really stupid. If you're on the Right.

If you're coming from the anarchist Left, or from the mainstream Democrat big-money crowd, splitting Republicans makes sense.

Why now? Because it's really risky, and very expensive, and the sh*t has finally hit the fan. Deep Left might be banking on the next two years to be their big shot at global warming legislation, which will fill lobbyist coffers for years and years to come, and put them in lockstep with folks on the global scale. The stakes are really high -- can you imagine how hard it will be for the NEXT Demoncrat savior who tries to run on "Hope and Change?" Being that's all they've got anyway (vague), they need to save their beef. They've got a slim chance right now, but if there is a bloodbath in November this is it for the Crazy, Moonbat Left for a while. And for the lobbyists too.

It's kind of a stretch that the MoveOn types could actually move this fast, most of the real Lefties seem surprised by the TP movement.

But again, that's what they WANT us to think.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 16, 2010, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
I'm no fan of the current crop of Republicans OR Demoncrats, but splitting the Republican base right now just seems really really stupid. If you're on the Right.
When would be a good time to split the republican base?
     
besson3c
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Sep 16, 2010, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Why now? Because it's really risky, and very expensive, and the sh*t has finally hit the fan. Deep Left might be banking on the next two years to be their big shot at global warming legislation, which will fill lobbyist coffers for years and years to come, and put them in lockstep with folks on the global scale.
It's not like there aren't big oil lobbyists interested in defeating future GW legislation...
     
finboy  (op)
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Sep 16, 2010, 07:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
When would be a good time to split the republican base?
When we're not in the middle of a Black Swan economic event maybe? When we have to decide what hill to die on every four years when putting the national platform together? There are lots of things broiling under the big tent, but that's just family business.

Have a healthy debate, but ultimately the party with the seats runs the show. Losing seats now is just dumb.
     
 
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