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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > I think its time for us to step back and acknowledge...Macs are kickin A$$

I think its time for us to step back and acknowledge...Macs are kickin A$$
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sMACk
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Oct 30, 2001, 09:02 PM
 
What a great time to be a mac user, I'm in love with the digital hub strategy and estatic that apple is taking the lead. I've got a digital camera, a digital video camera, a g4 cube, an ACD, an iPod on the way and OSX loaded up and...I'm actually happy with my system!

I'm used to the latest cpu models stealing the joy from my computer but I have to say I'm still super happy with my cube and OSX brings everything together so well...I'm just really happy with Apple right now!

Just thought I'd share
     
CollinG3G4
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Oct 30, 2001, 09:06 PM
 
Just give it a little time.

Apple will eventually piss you off...
     
Circa
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Oct 30, 2001, 09:48 PM
 
Sadly what CollinG3G4 said is true...
Circa
     
smacintush
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Oct 30, 2001, 10:59 PM
 
Only if you are an obsessive, zealot. For most of us, it is just a great computer system.

As if the other companies do it any better?
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
cschmelz
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Oct 30, 2001, 11:14 PM
 
Originally posted by CollinG3G4:
<STRONG>Just give it a little time.

Apple will eventually piss you off...</STRONG>
If you obsess and think that Apple should only do things to please you, then yes..

If you actually go out into the sun, he is right...
     
Chuck_star
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Oct 31, 2001, 12:02 AM
 
My G4 tower is now more than 1 year old (450mp). It's still the best purchase of my life. I'm as happy as the day I bought it. Sure I'd like bigger stronger faster. But I have another 2 happy years of warranty left. Then hopefully my G5 5 ghz will be ready. Good call on the DV cam. I just wish I had more time to play...
Later
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eventhorizon
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Oct 31, 2001, 02:16 AM
 
Right on! Never in my life before I owned a Mac could I be as creative as I am now, not to mention quickly too. My Mac changed the way I lived.


Event Horizon
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<Snowman>
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Oct 31, 2001, 03:00 AM
 
Originally posted by cschmelz:
<STRONG>

If you obsess and think that Apple should only do things to please you, then yes..

If you actually go out into the sun, he is right...</STRONG>

And with that, I shall sleep well tonight knowing that there are decent, intelligent people in this world.
     
sMACk  (op)
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Oct 31, 2001, 03:46 AM
 
That is exactly what I meant by take a step back...take a step back and enjoy being a Mac owner, don't let the thought that something bad might happen sour the moment. Right now, Apple rocks!
     
oscar
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Oct 31, 2001, 06:53 AM
 
I think we all enjoy being mac users, which is the reason we are all here. I think people get mad at apple because they know apple has potencial, but seem almost afraid of it. Weather this is actually true or not, is up to you, the reader. WE are the mac community, so we are much harsher to apple then anyone else; this is good, it keeps apple human. Apple has changed many things, from 33.6 to 56k modems on rev a imacs, to recently the laptop power supply replacment. If you own a mac, you have thought out your descian, and amoungest a PC world, and have decided not only to support mac, but also apple.

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: oscar ]
     
RWoelk
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Oct 31, 2001, 02:30 PM
 
I agree, and frankly I am tired of hearing all the Apple bashing from so many here. Sure there is always room for improvement, but owning using Macs after coming over from the dark side has changed my life in so many splendid ways.

I'm not only a happy camper, I am truly proud to be a part of the Apple community.
     
Porkstone
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Oct 31, 2001, 02:46 PM
 
Originally posted by RWoelk:
<STRONG>I agree, and frankly I am tired of hearing all the Apple bashing from so many here. Sure there is always room for improvement, but owning using Macs after coming over from the dark side has changed my life in so many splendid ways.

I'm not only a happy camper, I am truly proud to be a part of the Apple community.</STRONG>
One man's critisism is another man's incessant whining.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with critising something as long as you take the time to do proper research and add value to the debate. Simply saying Apple Mac's are crap doesn't lend anything but critising them for being overpriced and stating some evidence to back up your statement adds fuel to the fire.

If your not interested in reading other peoples opinions be they misinformed or not, then don't frequent message boards.

Suicide is painless.
     
sMACk  (op)
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Oct 31, 2001, 03:44 PM
 
Porkstone, you've got it wrong! You can always find something to complain about if you look hard enough but why always look for the negative without acknowledging the positive? This thread is to acknowledge the positive. I'm sure even you could come up with a descent list of positives about Apple if you, as you say, take the time to do proper research. Constructive criticisim is essential to the success of any company but people who focus only on the negative, are not able enjoy the positive and bring down others.

And the truth is, I think I speak for most people here, we frequent these boards for OTHER MAC USERS opinions, not for pc users who have no real working knowledge of the mac.
     
Michael T. Doyle
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Oct 31, 2001, 04:10 PM
 
I love my Mac.

Sometimes you can actually say something nice about a product (or a person) WITHOUT feeling like you have to say something bad just to even it out.

Get the point?
Mike Doyle
Chicago, IL
     
Porkstone
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Oct 31, 2001, 07:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Michael T. Doyle:
<STRONG>I love my Mac.

Sometimes you can actually say something nice about a product (or a person) WITHOUT feeling like you have to say something bad just to even it out.

Get the point? </STRONG>
I just don't understand you people how can you love your Mac? It's just a bunch of electronics collected together in a metal box.

You guys get upset way too easily when someone (like me) comes along and expresses an opinion that doesn't fit with your own ideas. You feel you have to justify yourselves or turn on the person that expresses the opinion. You are all just a bunch of insecure people.
Suicide is painless.
     
BannanaFiend
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Oct 31, 2001, 08:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Porkstone:
<STRONG>

I just don't understand you people how can you love your Mac? It's just a bunch of electronics collected together in a metal box.

You guys get upset way too easily when someone (like me) comes along and expresses an opinion that doesn't fit with your own ideas. You feel you have to justify yourselves or turn on the person that expresses the opinion. You are all just a bunch of insecure people.</STRONG>
The fact that you don't understand why we like our machines so much is because you have never owned one yourself. The fact that mac users "love" their computers says good things about their computers.
A history: Powerbook 15" 1.5 Ghz, Quickilver 1.2MP, iBook 600 DVD, Beige G3 266, Performa 638CD, Quadra 610 w/CD
     
Porkstone
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Oct 31, 2001, 08:13 PM
 
Originally posted by BannanaFiend:
<STRONG>

The fact that you don't understand why we like our machines so much is because you have never owned one yourself. The fact that mac users "love" their computers says good things about their computers.</STRONG>
But surely a computer is an inanimate object, it cannot reciprocate your feelings of love in the way another human being who also had feelings?
Suicide is painless.
     
dr. zoidberg
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Oct 31, 2001, 08:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Porkstone:
<STRONG>

But surely a computer is an inanimate object, it cannot reciprocate your feelings of love in the way another human being who also had feelings?</STRONG>
bah. you�re not exactly a romantic, right?!

"And Zapp Brannigan, your score qualifies you as assistant delivery boy, second class."
"Hmm. I guess I'll have to sleep my way to the top. Kif, wake me when I'm there."
     
iWolfe
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Oct 31, 2001, 08:55 PM
 
Porkstone:

Is it possible to fall in love... with a computer?

Oh yes, oh yes!



To again quote apple (because this fits my sentiments perfectly)

"It's about the joy of holding and handling and using things that are very well made."
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dead_eye
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Oct 31, 2001, 09:25 PM
 
Well, Macs must good products for apple to have lasted so long on a proprietary architecture. I mean, 5% of the market can't all be MAC zealots. My first computer was an apple iie, apple's best product.
Specs: 1.4 athlon, 256 crucial ddr
Guess, I'm a pc person
     
MonkeyBoy
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Oct 31, 2001, 09:38 PM
 
Originally posted by iWolfe:
<STRONG>Porkstone:

Is it possible to fall in love... with a computer?

Oh yes, oh yes!



To again quote apple (because this fits my sentiments perfectly)

"It's about the joy of holding and handling and using things that are very well made."</STRONG>
IMHO you need professional help, that this forum just can't give.
     
sMACk  (op)
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Oct 31, 2001, 10:09 PM
 
He's quoting an Apple commercial, relax
     
Spectre666
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Nov 1, 2001, 12:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Porkstone:
<STRONG>

I just don't understand you people how can you love your Mac? It's just a bunch of electronics collected together in a metal box.

You guys get upset way too easily when someone (like me) comes along and expresses an opinion that doesn't fit with your own ideas. You feel you have to justify yourselves or turn on the person that expresses the opinion. You are all just a bunch of insecure people.</STRONG>
I'll tell you exactly why I love my Mac.

When I sit in front of my Mac to do anything, whether it be web design, record music, or even just surf the internet, I honestly do NOT feel like I am using a "computer." I feel like I am using a creative tool that is an extension of my mind and body. It's a strange feeling that I love, and a feeling you have obviously never experienced.

I hate everyone equally.
     
sMACk  (op)
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Nov 1, 2001, 03:13 AM
 
Spectre, I think you put your finger on it, macs are an extension of our creativity, I use my mac to create. I think its fair to say that as a population compared to pc users macs have the highest percentage of creatives using macs. Im an art director for an ad agency, for the most part, everyone I deal with, photographers, illustrators, digital imaging houses etc all use macs.

We love to be creative + Macs help express our creativity = we love our macs. Maybe he doesn't understand that feeling because, well, he's just not creative. Couldn't resist.
     
oscar
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Nov 1, 2001, 03:56 AM
 
Being bumped over to the lounge
     
cheerios
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Nov 1, 2001, 04:37 AM
 
I will love my mac... because it is NOT a PC running Win 98!! It will be heaven to use a machine i can leave on for 48 hrs without getting blue screen's of death, and that is simple and easy to use. The only complaint I ahve is that I dislike the form factor of the iMac that is currently on the way here, but you know, free is free, and a mac is a mac, and weighed against the benefits, it's a small price to pay, to have my machine be encased in blueberry colored plastic. I can deal with that... Oh, extra desk room!! I can't wait!!
The short shall inherit the earth. Just you wait. You won't see us coming. We'll pop out from under tables, beds, and closets in hordes. So you're tall, huh? You won't be so tall when I chew off your ankles. Mofo
     
derbs
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Nov 1, 2001, 10:09 AM
 
love my mac, love apple

i always will, no matter what anyone else says however good their arguments are.

Sure apple piss me off from time to time... but i'm sorry, but i couldn't feel the same way about any other company even if they brought out the coolest hardware/software in the world!

any other true macaddict is the same

i remember back in the dark days of 1996, a lot of my mac friends lost it, and switched to the 'dark side'. Not me baby! I'm with apple til the day i die! I step back every day and think how far we've come from those Sculley days... and acknowledge... Macs rock the casbah!
     
scaught
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Nov 1, 2001, 10:16 AM
 
i love my mac too. as do most around here.

however.

"blind love" isnt anything im partial to. be it blind love of country, computers, whatever. everything deserves a little criticism as long as its not something stupid like "macs totally sux0rs d00d!". if i think an apple ad or product sucks, its because i love my mac so much that i will speak my criticism. even if it is to a small audience like all you bastards on the macnn board.
     
macaddled
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Nov 1, 2001, 12:38 PM
 
Great thread! Just my 2�:

With the mac I've gone from writing to games to photo editing and design to video, without blinking an eye. I've recently started taking up music (learning guitar, a little keyboard) and the mac just makes it so entertaining and expands my possibilities in so many ways.

Also drooling over OS X audio specs and I can't wait for software to come out which takes advantage of it.

Can't wait to surf while rendering a video in After Effects X.
     
iCartman
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Nov 1, 2001, 01:19 PM
 
yay!! Cherios wins the zealot award!!! He was the first to succesfully introduce Microsoft into a Mac only thread.

Congrats on your victory!

Remeber; Microsoft + Evil = instant comedy!


p.s. I agree with the poster, Apple is doing well these days.
respect mah athoritah!
     
anarkisst
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Nov 1, 2001, 01:36 PM
 
Originally posted by CollinG3G4:
<STRONG>Just give it a little time.

Apple will eventually piss you off...</STRONG>
Yeah, after a month of use my new iMac's HD failed on me. All data...ALL data lost. The very day I bought CD Rs to back up all the applications and other stuff (really!). I called Apple's tech support and got someone in a matter of minutes to try to walk me through any steps (using the Hardware Test Disc) in recovering the drive...no go though...

Since it was under warranty I sent it back to my reseller. They replaced the HD in 48 hours. I was back in less time than I would with any...any Windows reseller. In less than four hours I had all my applications, updates and periferals all running fine. Something that would take days with a Windows machine.

Sure, I hated the fact that Apple sold me an iMac with a faulty drive. But machines are machines. They'll crap out anytime. In a matter of a few days all was back to normal.

Thanks Apple and to my reseller for giving me prompt and curtious service.

Advice to any computer user: BACK UP YOUR DATA... and stay with the Macintosh...things will only get better!
     
cheerios
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Nov 1, 2001, 01:37 PM
 
Originally posted by iCartman:
<STRONG>yay!! Cherios wins the zealot award!!! He was the first to succesfully introduce Microsoft into a Mac only thread.

Congrats on your victory!

Remeber; Microsoft + Evil = instant comedy!


p.s. I agree with the poster, Apple is doing well these days.</STRONG>
Thankee, even though I'm a she... Wow, I feel so honored :wipes a tear from eye: and your equation is OH so true... I have HAD a REVELATION!! I have SEEEN the light, and the light is Apple!!
The short shall inherit the earth. Just you wait. You won't see us coming. We'll pop out from under tables, beds, and closets in hordes. So you're tall, huh? You won't be so tall when I chew off your ankles. Mofo
     
MikeM32
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Nov 1, 2001, 01:58 PM
 
I also am highly ecstatic about my Mac and it's like 3 years old now (Beige G3/266 Desktop). It still does what I need it to.

I came from owning two x86 boxes prior to getting my first and only Mac here, and it's been a great using experience. It's outlived both of those Windows 95 rigs as-well. Everything just connects to this sucker and "flies". True plug and play capabilities, not the plug and PRAY days of running the old Win 95 rigs I had.

It's true that those x86 boxes I owned came with lots of "extra stuff" and were cheaper. I also didn't get as much pure "mileage" from them either. I haven't needed another computer since I got this sucker.

The operating system allows me to actually get on to what I want to do without getting in my way.

I've had nothing but positive experiences using Macs. I've learned so much about computers in general just from using this simple yet elegant system.

I'm not beating on the x86 box users out there. Whatever floats your boat is my motto. But to the x86 zealots I just suggest trying a mac before beating up on us Mac users. It's not even about being/thinking "different" for me, it's just knowing what works best for me.

My next system will be a Mac as-well. But this "old" rig still has some years left in "her".

Mike

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]
     
DoctorGonzo
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Nov 1, 2001, 03:20 PM
 
What a great time to be a mac user, I'm in love with the digital hub strategy and estatic that apple is taking the lead.
In what?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Nov 1, 2001, 04:49 PM
 
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<STRONG>

In what?</STRONG>
In their strategy.

They have a strategy, whereas other companies only have actual products that work. together. today.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Nov 2, 2001, 12:14 AM
 
So many threads these days "Hey, Macs are okay... right?" "Macs really do kick ass... no honest!" "Windows XP is slow... it sucks!" "Our Icons can beat their icons up" "Chicks dig em? Don't they?"

What is the need for the constant reassurance? The constant:

'Macs can't be good, without something else being bad'

'I can't like my Mac or Apple, without hating PCs and Microsoft'

'Quick! I need a list of reasons why owning my Mac is okay'

'I can't relax and enjoy how even something as basic as the way an icon looks... without excruciating comparisons to someone else's icons'

'...ditto the most intimate minutiae of every other OS feature'

'For the 30,000th time this week, let me just say 'I hate Windows'. There, now I feel better about my Mac.'

'For th 30,000th time this week, let me go over my 50 point list of details/rumors/outdated myths/things I assume to be true- about an OS I don't even use or really know much about... so I can feel better about my use of the MacOS.'

What's the deal with so much need for reasurance?

Can't we all just get on the collective therapy couch, and say to ourselves once and for all... "YES! OKAY! MACS ARE AWESOME!" It's alright to own and use one...no really...it IS! Honest! It's not REQUIRED that liking one thing, means hating something else! More than one kind of computing platform CAN occupy the same planet at once! It's not REQUIRED that everyone else on the planet like and admire Macs as much as we do, in order for us to like them! As long as Apple is in business and we're happy with what we bought from them, our individual 'market-share' means SQUAT-DIDDLY-SPIT to our personal happiness! It's not REQUIRED for Microsoft, Intel, Dell, AMD etc. NOT to exist, in order for Apple to be a company we can feel good about buying a product from!

Okay, now let's all take a deep breath, and get on with it!
     
DoctorGonzo
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Nov 2, 2001, 12:26 AM
 
What's the deal with so much need for reasurance?
It's the bunker mentality that has carried over from the "Take your bets on when Apple will file for Chapter 11 days". Some Mac users really remind me of those Japanese soliders on remote islands who were never told that World War 2 ended, and periodically launch "Macs rule, PCs suck!" rants out of the blue. Everyone else (Mac and PC users alike) look around like "What the fsck was that? Did a wormhole open to 1995, or something?"
     
phantomdragonz
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Nov 2, 2001, 12:53 AM
 
I was literally BORN with a mac, My dad is a programmer. he programme programed/ported the old kings quest, others and i have owned/had a mac for my whole life! I have used pc's, I actually own one. (one of my dads hand me downs) my dad no longer programes on a mac, sadly=(. but he is a java programmer and he uses linux! he has used a pc to program in the past. so he is unbiased and he still thinks macs are far superior.
My mac is an extension of my creativity. but that creativeness could not be so used if it wern't for hotline. I was introduced to hotline in 5 grade, it confused the hell out of me. but then I figured it out. if it wern't for hotline I would not be able to be where I am today. I would not have discovered my love for graphical arts (2d & 3d). or video or music (napster) or web developement or...etc. but seriously if I could pay for all of those programs I would.
I LOVE my mac it has this thing about it, it's mine it's what i shaped it into. it's easy to use it's easy to look at!
I can't wait till i have my ibook. i will be going on three plane trips in the next 2 months and I will be watching movies and photoshop and itunes. I would love to sit nest to a pc user and just let him watch. I will fiddle with all the functions. just so he asks me a few questions then i will go all out on what it can do like airport BUILT IN! and EVERYTHING. maby he will look at macs in a defferent light. thats all that matters to me.
I am sick and tired of pc users that havent even used a mac! for example the people at school only get to touch the g3 all in ones and THOSE SUCK! if i could show them what i can do they would shut the F*UCK up. but i don't think i want to bring my ibook to school.
Macs are FAR superior and they are the best. yes they do cost more but if you look at it, it is not about the money it's about the company and the community behind it, and the computer it's self. A mac is built with people in mind, not pc users. =) a mac was and is designed logically (most of the time). a pc is just some things slapped together by a money mongler

ok I have to stop now or I will never stop. =)

sorry for spelling/grammer but I wanted to say that and this thread was the right place and we needed it =)


PHEW! lol

P.D.
     
nana2
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Nov 2, 2001, 02:20 AM
 
Originally posted by phantomdragonz:
<STRONG> I can't wait till i have my ibook. i will be going on three plane trips in the next 2 months and I will be watching movies and photoshop and itunes. I would love to sit nest to a pc user and just let him watch. I will fiddle with all the functions. just so he asks me a few questions then i will go all out on what it can do like airport BUILT IN! and EVERYTHING. maby he will look at macs in a defferent light. thats all that matters to me.</STRONG>
If that is all that matters to you then I truly feel sorry for you.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Nov 2, 2001, 02:22 AM
 
Better hope the guy in the next seat doesn't have a SONY laptop...you might be tempted to upgrade.
     
Sine
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Nov 2, 2001, 02:26 AM
 
I like Macs cause Henry Rollins uses one
     
DoctorGonzo
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Nov 2, 2001, 02:31 AM
 
I can't wait till i have my ibook. i will be going on three plane trips in the next 2 months and I will be watching movies and photoshop and itunes. I would love to sit nest to a pc user and just let him watch. I will fiddle with all the functions. just so he asks me a few questions then i will go all out on what it can do like airport BUILT IN! and EVERYTHING. maby he will look at macs in a defferent light. thats all that matters to me.
Actually, you will probably re-enforce every negative sterotype of Mac users. But hell, go for it!
     
pfflam
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Nov 2, 2001, 03:31 AM
 
I love my Mac...and its about a year old now and It's still good enough!!!


But doesn't this whole Bboard reveal how right Marx was when he said that commodity relationships would replace the real relationships between people.... that we would see people in terms of the commodity relation that they embody?
     
phantomdragonz
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Nov 2, 2001, 12:08 PM
 
yeah I agree, I was kinda excited. it was also late at night. I bet I won't actually do that but what the hell it's all for the love of the mac!

LOL
P.D.
     
nonhuman
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Nov 2, 2001, 12:53 PM
 
Originally posted by pfflam:
<STRONG>I love my Mac...and its about a year old now and It's still good enough!!!


But doesn't this whole Bboard reveal how right Marx was when he said that commodity relationships would replace the real relationships between people.... that we would see people in terms of the commodity relation that they embody?</STRONG>
Damn straight!
     
sek929
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Nov 2, 2001, 02:29 PM
 
Originally posted by Porkstone:
<STRONG>

But surely a computer is an inanimate object, it cannot reciprocate your feelings of love in the way another human being who also had feelings?</STRONG>
Ever hear of people loving cars?

Same deal, just because you don't enjoy your computer to the extent us Mac people do does not mean that we are somehow strange. We dropped over a couple grand on a machine that works the way we want it to and looks the way we want it to. Therefore, we stand by it.

I'm sure you'd wax a Ferrari everyday if you had one, and would tell off the rice-rocket drivers that taunted you about how your Ferrari isn't really that fast and its too expensive......

But I don't expect you to know this since you are a PC user. own a mac for a few years....then you'll understand.
     
typoon
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Nov 2, 2001, 04:20 PM
 
When I talk to people you never hear a PC user saying they love there PC's you mainly hear them complaining about one thing or another. When you talk to a Mac user they will tell you the "love" there Mac. No, a love for a piece of technology doesn't replace the love of a person but you can love a piece of technology. Why do people love there Cars? there boats? there Sports teams? It is similar.
I love the Mac because it allows me to work and not have to fuss. I can just get stuff done. I have 2 Macs. A G4 450 Sawtooth and a Firewire Powerbook. I "love" both of them. I find things on the Mac logical and the way it gets stuff done, simple. I believe in my Mac and what I can do with it and that is why I "LOVE" my Mac.

I'm Passionate about my Mac. Does that Make me a Zealot? Maybe.
I Love my Mac. Does that Mean there is something wrong with me? no.

If I told you that you can't "Love" God because god in a figment of people's imagination would that prevent you from loving god? NO. People believe and love things for there own reasons.

I love my Mac Because like others have said it is like an extension of me.
"Evil is Powerless If the Good are Unafraid." -Ronald Reagan

Apple and Intel, the dawning of a NEW era.
     
juanvaldes
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Nov 2, 2001, 09:48 PM
 
Originally posted by cheerios:
<STRONG>I will love my mac... because it is NOT a PC running Win 98!! It will be heaven to use a machine i can leave on for 48 hrs without getting blue screen's of death, and that is simple and easy to use. The only complaint I ahve is that I dislike the form factor of the iMac that is currently on the way here, but you know, free is free, and a mac is a mac, and weighed against the benefits, it's a small price to pay, to have my machine be encased in blueberry colored plastic. I can deal with that... Oh, extra desk room!! I can't wait!!</STRONG>
*tear comes to my eye*

when she first saw my mac she spouted off every bit of FUD there is. They suck, slow, blah blah blah. Then after nearly a year of USING one she can't stand to count down the days till she gets her iMac.

I have watched as her comp chocked, needed to be reinstalled, a failed upgrade to Win2K (no drivers for keyboard and mouse or ethernet! :mad this that and everything in between. As my mac just chugged along.

LOTS of people are getting very tired of the instability of windows and its' software. Unfortunately not everyone has the option to see and use a mac in action and see exactly what they are missing.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787
     
sek929
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Nov 2, 2001, 10:54 PM
 
So THATS why Racheal keeps you around eh Juan? Once she gets her own wittle iMac shes gonna cut all ties man! Keep her on Windows for as long as possible so she has to use your Mac.
     
   
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