[Hawkeye_a]

I think Nintendo is stumbling in a major way. Many of you know me to be the resident Nintendo fanboi, but quite frankly I'm more interested in their products.

The DS and Wii were great in their time (5 years ago). They were unique, simple, fun, well designed and well marketed. That is a complete contrast to the 3DS and IMHO, the Wii U.

The 3DS is a really cool concept. I tried it out, and as novel as the 3D effect is, the screens have a very low level of tolerance to movement, which essentially 'breaks' the effect. (distance from screen, angle of eyes with screen,etc). Couple that with an anemic library of games, and it's no surprise that it didn't catch on. Personally, i wasn't going to buy it just because i found the screen tech too 'alpha'...it belongs in the lab, not the market, yet. Then comes the business aspect..... They are selling the 3DS, DSi and DS concurrently. That just fragments the user base and added an unnecessary complication for developers.

The Wii U. The WiiMote was a great step ahead for interactive UI IMHO. The Wii U controller is just plain idiotic. It looks like they just put everything they could think of into it. The souped up hardware is welcome as well, but visual fidelity isn't a hardware issue anymore. If I walk into a store and wee the WiiU, PS3 and XB360 on sale, the WiiU will get the least attention/consideration. The Nintendo first party games MIGHT be good (although after that weird Metroid game from a couple of years ago, and the new visually-shameful and not-so-different upcoming Zelda, i'm not too optimistic).

</rant>

[ibook_steve]

How is Skyward Sword "visually shameful"? It looks like it's going to be fantastic, the Wii's last hurrah, so to speak.

Yes, the 3DS library is bad. I got mine at launch and I only have Pilotwings, SFIV, and Zelda. But things are certainly looking up, starting with Mario. If they had waited to release 3DS until this holiday season, they could have had all the good games (the ones I bought) out plus Mario, which would have made the 3DS killer. If you haven't spent time with it, the 3D works really well. Heck, the HTC Evo 3D uses pretty much the same screen, so it's not that "alpha."

The Wii U is still a mystery. We'll have to see what happens. I've been with Nintendo since the original NES, and though they've been late or anemic to the party in some cases (read: the Internet), I'm not worried about them.

Steve

[besson3c]

Yeah, how is Skyward Sword visually shameful? It looks like it is about as best as one can get out of that hardware, and great art direction regardless of hardware.

[Hawkeye_a]

Sorry for the late reply guys.....

Yeah i'm not just referring to the technical aspects of the visuals, but even the art style. I have played 3 Zelda games over the past decade (Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass). They were all awesome, my favorite probably being WindWaker.

Technically, looking at Skyward Sword, it looks inferior, i see polygons, i never even noticed them windwaker/tp. The texture detail is pretty low and blurry. And now, almost basic visual techniques like bump mapping, etc...seem to be have been forgotten. Visually, it looks extremely dated, especially when compared to twilight princess or even any cell shaded/cartoony visuals from this generation. Character designs look lazy, when i saw those ghostly white things, they look like something one would learn in the first week of character design. IMHO

The other thing that nags is the fact that the basic structure of the storyline of every Zelda game is identical. The locales change, the characters look different, but the basic progression is identical, and after about 10 years of playing these games, i guess i just want it to go somewhere new.

But enough about TP. They just released Mario Land 3D for the 3DS, do you think that will resurrect the platform?

Personally, i want to play this game, but the hardware limitation which i pointed out in my earlier post still stands, and i do not want to experience something so finicky.

Cheers

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Sorry for the late reply guys.....

Yeah i'm not just referring to the technical aspects of the visuals, but even the art style. I have played 3 Zelda games over the past decade (Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass). They were all awesome, my favorite probably being WindWaker.

Technically, looking at Skyward Sword, it looks inferior, i see polygons, i never even noticed them windwaker/tp. The texture detail is pretty low and blurry. And now, almost basic visual techniques like bump mapping, etc...seem to be have been forgotten. Visually, it looks extremely dated, especially when compared to twilight princess or even any cell shaded/cartoony visuals from this generation. Character designs look lazy, when i saw those ghostly white things, they look like something one would learn in the first week of character design. IMHO

There is also a ton of detail in some of these areas. I suspect that the impressionistic thing was the best solution given the hardware. I don't mind it. Good graphics are not a requirement for enjoying a Zelda game, at least not to me.

The other thing that nags is the fact that the basic structure of the storyline of every Zelda game is identical. The locales change, the characters look different, but the basic progression is identical, and after about 10 years of playing these games, i guess i just want it to go somewhere new.

I'm not sure what you mean. Isn't the same basic structure of most video games identical? Antagonist does something bad, hero must save the day by going to kick his ass? The role of Zelda has been evolving from her being the helpless random chick that needs rescuing to her being a childhood friend of Link's with a bit of romance involved.

However, honestly, the storyline is the last reason I play any Zelda game (and I've played and beaten them all going back to and including a Link to the Past excluding Link's Awakening and Spirit Tracks via emulators), it's the puzzles and exploration and stuff. The characters could just do nothing but make fart noises and I'd be happy.

[Hawkeye_a]

Well, I stand corrected to a degree....
I just watched IGN's review of the game, and visually i come away with a very 90s saturday-morning-cartoon feel, which is familiar in a comforting sort of way

Apparently the controls are the best implementations of motion controls....

I might actually pick up a new controller(with the WiiMotion+ thing) and this game.....

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Well, I stand corrected to a degree....
I just watched IGN's review of the game, and visually i come away with a very 90s saturday-morning-cartoon feel, which is familiar in a comforting sort of way

Apparently the controls are the best implementations of motion controls....

I might actually pick up a new controller(with the WiiMotion+ thing) and this game.....

You can buy the WiiMotion adaptor for under $10 on eBay, just FYI.

[besson3c]

Skyward Swording running in Dolphin with a higher internal resolution:

[Hawkeye_a]

whats going on in there?

-Are they subdividing and smoothing the poygons?
-Are the texture sizes upscaled? ( I don't even how and if that would help)
-FSAA?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

whats going on in there?

-Are they subdividing and smoothing the poygons?
-Are the texture sizes upscaled? ( I don't even how and if that would help)
-FSAA?

There are several enhancements available as options:

- increase of internal resolution to 3x native (possibly more if you can get more than 1920 x 1584)
- anti-aliasing up to 16x
- anistropic filtering (for textures at angles)

I guess textures aren't bitmaps?

[sek929]

I wish Nintendo would stop making the same game over and over. Twilight Princess was technically good, but is pretty much the exact same game as Link to the Past on SNES. Couple this with their strict adherence to motion controls and new monstrous WiiU remote, complete lack of any media center functionality, and decade late start in the realm of useable online features then I can't see it as anything but a device to play Zelda/Metroid/Mario. Which as much as I love Zelda and Metroid, I'm not going to buy a whole system just to play the umpteenth reboot of either game.

The WiiU is what the Wii should have been, and I have a sneaking suspicion it will be thoroughly trounced by MS and Sony come their new console.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I wish Nintendo would stop making the same game over and over. Twilight Princess was technically good, but is pretty much the exact same game as Link to the Past on SNES. Couple this with their strict adherence to motion controls and new monstrous WiiU remote, complete lack of any media center functionality, and decade late start in the realm of useable online features then I can't see it as anything but a device to play Zelda/Metroid/Mario. Which as much as I love Zelda and Metroid, I'm not going to buy a whole system just to play the umpteenth reboot of either game.

The WiiU is what the Wii should have been, and I have a sneaking suspicion it will be thoroughly trounced by MS and Sony come their new console.

I agree that the Zelda games are formulaic, but for some reason I'm still enjoying them. I used to like the Final Fantasy games too, but they lost my interest due to being formulaic to a fault.

What is formulaic about the Zelda games are:

- do a bunch of things in the overworld so that you can enter the next dungeon
- trigger cutscene when you've done something to get you closer to goal
- enter dungeon, collect dungeon item, beat boss. In dungeon each room is self contained and leaving the room resets the puzzle, collect prize which allows you to proceed further into game
- repeat

However, the real reason I play the games is the puzzle solving aspect to it, and I find that the franchise has done well in coming up with new surprises and innovative puzzles.

That being said, Skyward Sword has changed this formula which I can confirm after working my way through 3 of the dungeons:

- there are dungeon items (i.e. new tools that you use throughout the game) and important items that you need in the overworld
- there are substantial dungeon-like puzzles in the overworld, the overworld puzzles are not just about talking to the right people or collecting non-dungeon items after running a bunch of errands for people to unlock new areas and stuff

There are obviously other tweaky things too, including the motion controls. So, my point is that I agree that there is a formula, but there has also been a refinement that with the exception of the two Oracle games I don't feel like I'm just playing the same game over again when I move through the series. The formulas of the 2D vs. 3D games are obviously different too.

Aren't many game styles formulaic though, including the 3D shooters, games like Starcraft/Warcraft, etc.?

[Hawkeye_a]

I've been watching the online video reviews of Skyward Sword, and i'm still having mixed feeling about the visuals. I really like the saturday-morning-cartoon aspect, but i cannot stand the polygonal looks and some of the character designs.

Gamespot gave it quite a scathing review (although many other publications rated it very high)

[besson3c]

The gamespot guy did say that he rarely assigns scores over 8, even for games of the year.

I'm enjoying the game, so far I'd say it is the best Zelda game ever. If you enjoy these games you should enjoy this one. The graphics are just icing for me anyway.

[subego]

I ****ing hated Twilight Princess. Ridiculously difficult puzzles.

That is all. Carry on.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

I ****ing hated Twilight Princess. Ridiculously difficult puzzles.

That is all. Carry on.

Really? Which ones come to mind?

That game doesn't spring to mind when I think of tough Zelda games.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by subego 

I ****ing hated Twilight Princess. Ridiculously difficult puzzles.

That is all. Carry on.

Really? I didn't find the puzzles hard at all. When i think of tough Zelda games, OOT comes to mind. I gave up at the water temple (tried to get through it a couple of times over the past 5 years to no avail).

I guess my favorite Zelda game(from the three i have played) was WindWaker.

[subego]

Maybe it was because it was my first 3D Zelda. I'm not the greatest gamer by a long shot, but I could always get through at least half of the top-down Zeldas.

I had to look up the final puzzle in the tutorial dungeon (the code on the floor tiles).

I had to look up the solution to that creature rolling towards you. The game really made it seem like you had to hit it right rather than use the actual solution (which I forget. Was it boots?)

When I got to the next part with the multiple rolling creatures and the explodey bits, I was stumped again. When I looked it up, there was absolutely, positively, no way I could have figured out that was what I was supposed to do.

At that point, I turned it off in disgust.

[sek929]

Ice Temple in Link to the Past is the hardest dungeon.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Ice Temple in Link to the Past is the hardest dungeon.

This.

No disrespect guys, but the 3D games are pretty much all comparatively easy compared to the very old school games such as the original, Zelda II, and LInk to the Past. I also don't like those games as much because so much of your success is pretty random since the AI of the enemies is all really random, just flailing about in random directions and stuff. The toughness of these games is getting to the end with enough hearts, but there is a lot and a lot and a lot and a lot of repetition necessary because you will die a lot.

The toughness of the 3D Zelda is not the hand-to-hand-combat and the hand-eye-coordination stuff generally speaking, it's the puzzles. It's hard to decide which had the toughest puzzles going back to and including the puzzle oriented 2D games such as the Oracle games, they each had their stumpers.

You guys wanting to relive some of the older games, do you realize that pretty much every game (including Skyward Sword) except for Spirit Tracks can be played via emulation on your Intel Mac? Hawkeye: if you enjoyed OOT have you tried Majora's Mask?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

Maybe it was because it was my first 3D Zelda. I'm not the greatest gamer by a long shot, but I could always get through at least half of the top-down Zeldas.

I had to look up the final puzzle in the tutorial dungeon (the code on the floor tiles).

You mean the visit to Hyrule as a wolf?

I had to look up the solution to that creature rolling towards you. The game really made it seem like you had to hit it right rather than use the actual solution (which I forget. Was it boots?)

Yup, iron boots.

When I got to the next part with the multiple rolling creatures and the explodey bits, I was stumped again. When I looked it up, there was absolutely, positively, no way I could have figured out that was what I was supposed to do.

At that point, I turned it off in disgust.

If you ever want to play it again and don't mind using walkthroughs, there are a ton of them online.

[subego]

I don't like using walkthroughs, but I'm not as militant as I was in the past.

The thing though was having to look up three things in a row, and that I was actually expected by someone to figure out the third without a walkthrough.

[besson3c]

How did you fare with other Zelda games? Not to be condescending, but Twilight Princess is not one of the harder games. It was probably easier than Skyward Sword which I just finished last night.

[Hawkeye_a]

Well.....

I just got the collector edition of this game in the mail, complete with gold wiimote. I've gotten to the point where i get into the peter pan outfit...

So far, i got to say, this game does not look good.....even for GCN standards. I don't know if it was a B-team that was put on this project, but WindWaker looks better than this game. Now, im not trying to compare it technically to PS3 games, but...everything looks way too polygonal, every edge is aliased and jaggie. And i'm comparing it to Twilight Princess, which seems like it developed for a totally different platform.

It almost seems like they couldnt agree on a style/shader for this game....it looks like its halfway between cell shading and realism. The trees just look terrible!!! The last time i remember seeing trees rendered like this was on the PS1.

The music so far is great, and the controls seem pretty good. I'll keep playing though, and hopefully it gets better.

Cheers

[besson3c]

If you are playing the game because you are looking for great graphics you will be disappointed, although I like the art direction and general landscaping, whatever that is called.

[ibook_steve]

I really don't understand this graphics argument you have. Would you not play Pac-Man or the original Tetris today because the graphics suck? Of course you'd play them, because they have fantastic gameplay.

Yes, the PS3 (which I own) and the Xbox (which I will *never* own) can pump out HD, realistic graphics. But at this point, we're getting close to the Uncanny Valley (Google it). How much "better" do graphics have to get and how much better can they get? And what does it matter if the gameplay sucks?

If the non-HD graphics, but beautiful painting art style, bother you that much even when the game has such fantastic gameplay, then just don't play it.

Steve

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve 

I really don't understand this graphics argument you have. Would you not play Pac-Man or the original Tetris today because the graphics suck? Of course you'd play them, because they have fantastic gameplay.

Yes, the PS3 (which I own) and the Xbox (which I will *never* own) can pump out HD, realistic graphics. But at this point, we're getting close to the Uncanny Valley (Google it). How much "better" do graphics have to get and how much better can they get? And what does it matter if the gameplay sucks?

If the non-HD graphics, but beautiful painting art style, bother you that much even when the game has such fantastic gameplay, then just don't play it.

Steve

I also wonder at one point realistic HD graphics stop making economic sense to game developers too, when people seem just as happy to play Angry Birds than they are to pony up for a beautiful looking game like Skyrim.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve 

I really don't understand this graphics argument you have. Would you not play Pac-Man or the original Tetris today because the graphics suck? Of course you'd play them, because they have fantastic gameplay.

Yes, the PS3 (which I own) and the Xbox (which I will *never* own) can pump out HD, realistic graphics. But at this point, we're getting close to the Uncanny Valley (Google it). How much "better" do graphics have to get and how much better can they get? And what does it matter if the gameplay sucks?

If the non-HD graphics, but beautiful painting art style, bother you that much even when the game has such fantastic gameplay, then just don't play it.

Steve

It's not about HD, or realism (i know what the uncanny valley is ), or mhz and mbs..... like i said in my post. I felt that the art style AND technical competence in Windwaker seems better. I'm not deriding the Wii's power, especially after playing games like SMG, MP3 and TP(which ironically is a GCN game). Skyward sword looks blocky, grainy, blurry and aliased.

I love to see new art styles in games. Okami, Shadow of the colossus, WindWaker, Super Mario Galaxy, etc...all have great art styles and look and play great. Three of those games are from the last generation of hardware.

I'm just annoyed that every time i look around in Skyward Sword, i am reminded of polygons. Does anyone know if in fact it was a B-team that developed this game?

Cheer

[ibook_steve]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

It's not about HD, or realism (i know what the uncanny valley is ), or mhz and mbs..... like i said in my post. I felt that the art style AND technical competence in Windwaker seems better. I'm not deriding the Wii's power, especially after playing games like SMG, MP3 and TP(which ironically is a GCN game). Skyward sword looks blocky, grainy, blurry and aliased.

I love to see new art styles in games. Okami, Shadow of the colossus, WindWaker, Super Mario Galaxy, etc...all have great art styles and look and play great. Three of those games are from the last generation of hardware.

I'm just annoyed that every time i look around in Skyward Sword, i am reminded of polygons. Does anyone know if in fact it was a B-team that developed this game?

Cheer

The game has been in development for the past 5 years, almost since the Wii was released, by the main team that's developed all the Zelda games. I think it's beautiful in the limited time I've had to play it. I'm not sure how you are "reminded of polygons."

Steve

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve 

The game has been in development for the past 5 years, almost since the Wii was released, by the main team that's developed all the Zelda games. I think it's beautiful in the limited time I've had to play it. I'm not sure how you are "reminded of polygons."

Steve

Yeah, I feel the same way. I love Wind Waker too, but I think that this game is the prettiest of all Zelda games to date. I don't know how WW doesn't remind one of polygons either.

[Hawkeye_a]

Look at the leaves on the trees ... that is what bugs me, it just screams polygons from the ps1-era.





I played therough this part yesterday... look at the dude's arm and body....

[besson3c]

The top image looks like it was from the early two years ago E3 demo. Are you sure that's recent?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The top image looks like it was from the early two years ago E3 demo. Are you sure that's recent?

It might be, but i saw trees like that while playing yesterday. I didnt see that kind of stuff in WW or TP...at least as often anyway

Either way, at times the game does look good, and i look forward to playing it later today.

Cheers

[besson3c]

Do you have any other comments about the game other than the graphics? I finished it a week or so ago, but I enjoyed the game and look forward to playing it again, making it less of a speed run.

[Hawkeye_a]

Wow that was fast!!!

I just made it to the first temple (i think). The controls are kinda hit-or-miss (maybe i'm doing something wrong?). I dont like having to regularly recalibrate it when pointing. And when i bring up the 'circle-selector-menus' or when i summon that purple-guardian thing, the controls become sluggish, so i have to extremely exaggerate my motions to try and select something. And when walking on ropes, i have absolutely no idea how to balance, so i end up just flailing all over the place.

I do like the depth-of-field effect where the things in the distance turn into pastel-like almost. And some of the 'blotchy-textures' work looks kinds nice. The art style is very nice (despite it sometimes looking inconsistent) . This art style, could have probably looked a lot better. Trees are my pet-peeves, especially now in 2011-2012.

More play tonight.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

Wow that was fast!!!

I just made it to the first temple (i think). The controls are kinda hit-or-miss (maybe i'm doing something wrong?). I dont like having to regularly recalibrate it when pointing. And when i bring up the 'circle-selector-menus' or when i summon that purple-guardian thing, the controls become sluggish, so i have to extremely exaggerate my motions to try and select something. And when walking on ropes, i have absolutely no idea how to balance, so i end up just flailing all over the place.

If you point your Wiimote somewhere close to the Wii sensor bar you won't have to calibrate as often. The sensor bar's sole purpose in this game is with calibration.

The ropes took me a little while to figure out too. Hold your Wiimote straight up in the air like you do for a Skyward Strike, and then just tilt left and right to balance while the Wiimote is being held up in the air. They probably could have done a better job explaining that the motion controls have a 3D axis.

I do like the depth-of-field effect where the things in the distance turn into pastel-like almost. And some of the 'blotchy-textures' work looks kinds nice. The art style is very nice (despite it sometimes looking inconsistent) . This art style, could have probably looked a lot better. Trees are my pet-peeves, especially now in 2011-2012.

More play tonight.

There is definitely a lot of inconsistency, but where the game looks its best it really stimulates the imagination, I think! I suspect that what good aspects to the graphics do exist took a lot of extra work in compensating for the lacking hardware. The depth-of-field effect is probably an example of compensation for dated hardware.

[mentholiptus]

I understand where you're coming from in the original post, but I think all of Nintendo's work is brilliant. I don't care so much about the tech as I do about enjoying myself, and I've always enjoyed the mario, metroid, and zelda games. Pikmin was a pleasant surprise a few years back as well.

The hardware is losing it's appeal in all instances (all consoles). I think the hardware just doesn't matter anymore. We've reached a point that, at least for me, hardware doesn't seem to hold software back. My new iMac cuts through anything I throw at it like a hot knife thru butter. HD video in FCP, 20 24bit 96khz audio tracks, editing 30mb RAW images in aperture, it's all crazy smooth, and work feels so fantastic when you're not waiting on a machine. Anyway, I'm getting off track, but the same goes for consoles. Although N, like Apple, designs/develops/integrates their hardware and software in order to optimize and control the experience, I feel like we're getting to a point that we'd all benefit from a set of standards for game consoles so that developers don't have to write for 3-6 standards...just like VHS over beta, and bluray over HD-DVD. I realize something like that would have made it harder for N to develop the Wii remotes, but what a pain in the ass it's become to drop $300-$600 so I can buy one game that's an exclusive on one console I otherwise have no interest in.

I'm going to stop here, because I'm rambling...but I think it's been proven that 3 companies can survive in this market, and that hardware in a market will more likely than not, take a loss. Nintendo did an amazing job of selling gameplay over tech specs, and it certainly paid off, but having 6 boxes plugged into a TV is so 2004.

Who knows, maybe we'll be installing games as apps on TV's soon with no need for a console...just controllers. Buy the $30 "remote" specific to one companies game, and the TV handles the storage and processing. That would be ideal. I don't care what the device that houses my games looks like, or whose logo is on it, I just want to play the games I enjoi.

Wind Waker is probably the greatest game of all time, if you ask me. The art direction is amazing. Even the soundtrack is a beauty to behold.

And I wish link didn't look like michael jackson dressed like peter pan. I was stoked that the second WW quest allowed link to wear the blue/orange island garb.

Ok, done for real this time.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by mentholiptus 

Nintendo did an amazing job of selling gameplay over tech specs, and it certainly paid off

Not trying to troll you, or any NIntendo fans here, but I absolutely hate the Wiimote and motion controls in general. I find it unintuitive, un-immersive and a general pain in the ass to use. They replaced random button mashes with random wrist wiggling and I, for one, do not find it in any way innovative. I still think the best use of the Wiimote is Wii bowling, because it accurately mimics the real-life motion while not getting in your way.

What really irks me about the Wii is Nintendo's complete lack of caring that most people use their gaming system as a media center now. Perhaps you might be fine with running HDMI from your computer to your TV, but that doesn't work for me. My Xbox 360 is my TV. I don't watch broadcast shows (cept sports) so everything else is watched via the 360. The Wii can't even play a DVD, meaning more boxes hooked up to your TV for simple tasks.

Nintendo's 'vision' as of late, seems to be milking their beloved properties for the billionth time while giving you low-end hardware to play 'better' games on. Which is malarky. Great games and great graphics used to be Nintendo's forté, back in the SNES days of course.

[ibook_steve]

Originally Posted by mentholiptus 

Wind Waker is probably the greatest game of all time, if you ask me. The art direction is amazing. Even the soundtrack is a beauty to behold.

And I wish link didn't look like michael jackson dressed like peter pan. I was stoked that the second WW quest allowed link to wear the blue/orange island garb.

Ok, done for real this time.

Great post until this. I loved everything about Wind Waker except babysitting the wind. And if you wanted to get every item, you had to sail everywhere multiple times. I cringed every time I had to play that damn song to change the direction of the wind.

Steve

[mentholiptus]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Not trying to troll you, or any NIntendo fans here, but I absolutely hate the Wiimote and motion controls in general. I find it unintuitive, un-immersive and a general pain in the ass to use. They replaced random button mashes with random wrist wiggling and I, for one, do not find it in any way innovative. I still think the best use of the Wiimote is Wii bowling, because it accurately mimics the real-life motion while not getting in your way...My Xbox 360 is my TV. I don't watch broadcast shows (cept sports) so everything else is watched via the 360...

That's fine, but I disagree.

It was such a huge step forward, and such an effective game changer (pun intended), that both Sony and Microsoft "borrowed" the idea and rushed their own version to market. (no need to split hairs over the kinect vs remotes...either way, gesturing and body movement became the focus and centerpiece of interaction with games, as opposed to pushing buttons).

It was, in fact, so intuitive and immersive, that otherwise non-gamers, adults, females (who statistically didn't game anywhere near as often as males), and even the elderly began buying game consoles. Some doctors began using Wii's for physical rehab & therapy in clinics. Nursing homes bought wii's, and friends and family gathered 'round and spent time together gaming. The Wii sold about as many consoles as the PS3 and xbox combined, and it wasn't because of it's tech specs. This was based solely on the remote. It was near impossible to buy one for the entire first year they were out. The thing was a smash hit, and shattered boundaries that console gaming found impossible to penetrate up until that point.

But, for me, the absolute greatest feature of the wii remote & nun-chuck is the ability to play a game with both of my arms resting on the chair's armrests. Not having to hold one singular, central, steering-wheel type object in my lap, but being able to relax naturally in a chair while gaming is huge. I game like the maxell tape guy rocks.



I'm 50% through Skyward Sword, and this is how I've played the entire game so far. From time to time, I swing my hands, but it's a very welcome and fantastic feeling 1:1 movement. This game is top shelf material.

My Apple TV is my TV. My PS3 is my optical player. My wii is 95% of my console gaming.

[mentholiptus]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve 

Great post until this. I loved everything about Wind Waker except babysitting the wind. And if you wanted to get every item, you had to sail everywhere multiple times. I cringed every time I had to play that damn song to change the direction of the wind.

Steve

Yeah. There's a few quirks, but overall, and mostly because of the art direction, this game is at the top of my list. I get the urge to play it just because I want to look at it and listen to the music.

The wind bit became tedious as time went on, but overall it didn't bother me. Every Zelda has some sort of element like that. Flutes, wands, wind, boats, huge birds, horses, time travel, light worlds, dark worlds, whirlwind warps, etc. The only part of zelda games that get to me (aside from the previously mentioned MJ look and peter pan outfit) are the unnecessary cut-scene like animations for simple items or actions throughout the entire game (high value rupees, keys, misc items, etc). Once is enough. Once the item has been established, I'm no longer excited by it.

Any non-linear game will force you to backtrack to some extent if you want to be a completionist. I rarely try to collect everything anymore. I just want to win.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by mentholiptus 

It was such a huge step forward, and such an effective game changer (pun intended), that both Sony and Microsoft "borrowed" the idea and rushed their own version to market.

Cashing in on a fad does not make motion controls suddenly less terrible.

Originally Posted by mentholiptus 

It was, in fact, so intuitive and immersive, that otherwise non-gamers, adults, females (who statistically didn't game anywhere near as often as males), and even the elderly began buying game consoles.

Exactly the opposite. Motion controls are so un-immersive that the average person is now able to step up and waggle their wrist and win the game. There is no skill or dedication involved to play a motion game since the gameplay has to be dumbed down so far to work with laggy unresponsive controls. That's why you can sit down and twitch your wrist and accomplish the same thing as big exaggerated moves of your arm.

Originally Posted by mentholiptus 

Some doctors began using Wii's for physical rehab & therapy in clinics. Nursing homes bought wii's, and friends and family gathered 'round and spent time together gaming. The Wii sold about as many consoles as the PS3 and xbox combined, and it wasn't because of it's tech specs. This was based solely on the remote. It was near impossible to buy one for the entire first year they were out. The thing was a smash hit, and shattered boundaries that console gaming found impossible to penetrate up until that point.

The Wii sold so many units because it was cheaper, and it was cheaper because it was a GameCube with Motion Controls. I'll give Nintendo credit for trying something new, but the remote adds NOTHING to the game, nothing. Most games almost seem embarrassed to add motion controlled segments, which have been reduced to little more than quicktime events. Past that the implementation is sloppy and laggy and heaven help you if your aim takes you off the screen. The Wiimote has so many hard-to-reach buttons than past playing anything more complicated than Mario Party you better have rubber hands to hit the D pad, and the +/- buttons.

Originally Posted by mentholiptus 

But, for me, the absolute greatest feature of the wii remote & nun-chuck is the ability to play a game with both of my arms resting on the chair's armrests. Not having to hold one singular, central, steering-wheel type object in my lap, but being able to relax naturally in a chair while gaming is huge. I game like the maxell tape guy rocks.

So your favorite thing about the motion controller is that you are able to use it in a relaxed state and not like a motion controller at all? The whole point of the thing is that you are supposed to mimic the in-game actions out in real life. What's the point if you are sitting down barely moving at all?

I've played alot, and I mean alot, of the Wii over the years. From Wii Sports, Mario Galaxy, Metroid, FPSes, action brawlers, you name it. Never once have I been not frustrated by the lack of control I had over my character. Each action is delayed and seemingly arbitrary and the Wii Motion + only fixes this slightly, and should have been an integral part of the Wiimote from the start.

My buddy was the biggest Wii fan ever, he owns dozens of games. For his wedding we got him a 360 w/kinect and he absolutely LOVES it. The Kinect is much cooler because for motion games like dancing and whatnot it actually makes you use your whole body, not just your wrist, and forces you to actually stand up and get involved unlike your sit in a chair and barely move Wimote usage. When he got a LED TV he was very surprised how bad it looked, he was also surprised I was able to play Twilight Princess on my GameCube. A few months in now he never uses his Wii, and has nothing but praise for the 360.

The Wii was marketed beautifully, designed well, and put together solidly. The motion controls were never perfected and rushed to market. People ate it up because it was 'new' and 'cool' but how has it improved gaming? We still get sequel after sequel, or even tired re-hash (Super Mario Bros Wii) and so many games barely even make use of motion controls.

All the Wii did for gaming was put the importance of getting non-gamers to game, thus making games more simple and less rewarding than ever. It's like making a sports car for people who don't like driving.

[The Final Dakar]

I have to admit my respect for the kinect has increased, though only in relation to the Wii. A few of the games I tried were more compelling than the (small amount) Wii fare I tried, though I still found the gameplay incredibly shallow.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I have to admit my respect for the kinect has increased, though only in relation to the Wii. A few of the games I tried were more compelling than the (small amount) Wii fare I tried, though I still found the gameplay incredibly shallow.

I think the Kinect is a really brilliant piece of hardware, and easily bests the Wii in it's own game, but I agree with you. Games made for this demographic are as shallow as a puddle. With how huge the gaming industry is getting, it is harder and harder to find original stuff coming out of any system.

[besson3c]

Why do you say so emphatically that motion controls add nothing as if you speak in an authoritative way, sek? There are obviously many people that like them a great deal, including myself. Motion controls add a tremendous amount to a game like Skyward Sword, and actually provide ways to establish new puzzles and gaming challenges. Have you looked at how the motion controls have been implemented in a game like this?

[sek929]

I've been a gamer since the mid 80s, and I spend a great deal of my free time gaming. I'd like to believe that my opinion of gaming and games in general carries more weight than somebody who picks up a game every once and a while.

How about you give me some examples of groundbreaking use of motion controls in Skyward Sword? I'd love to play the game since I'm a massive fan of Zelda, but I can't afford two systems. If Twilight Princess was release on both the Wii and GameCube then I would hazard a guess motion controls weren't very important at all in that case.

Edit: Also, swinging the sword vertically or horizontally doesn't count, as you could do that (easily I might add) in Ocarina.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do you say so emphatically that motion controls add nothing as if you speak in an authoritative way, sek? There are obviously many people that like them a great deal, including myself. Motion controls add a tremendous amount to a game like Skyward Sword, and actually provide ways to establish new puzzles and gaming challenges. Have you looked at how the motion controls have been implemented in a game like this?

Basically they appeal to people who have no interest in gaming.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Basically they appeal to people who have no interest in gaming.

At least someone gets what I am trying to say here.

If you enjoy the Wii, great, I love all forms of gaming and encourage them all. It's only when people try to paint the Wiimote as the best thing to happen to gaming, that I'll take issue with.

[The Final Dakar]

To put it another way, if someone spoke ill of Farmville (which is most certainly a game) would that be so difficult to comprehend?

[The Final Dakar]

sek, how does this sound to you: The Wiimote removes the complexity of a game and replaces it with effort.