[gulmatan]

According to the new issue of Popular Science, China has already created a knock-off of Apple's newest creation.

Here's the link: China's iClone - Popular Science

Doesn't this violate patent, copyright or other law?

[Cold Warrior]

Yes, but since when does China have robust copyright enforcement?

[DigitalEl]

I just saw that issue of Popular Science at the barbershop... Like 2 hours ago. My initial reaction to the article was disgust. It seemed like the magazine was championing the Chinese clone factories... Kind of a "Hey, look at what these guys can do." I got called for my haircut before I finished the article, so I'm admitting maybe my summary judgement is unfair, but I did see that part of the article - or maybe a sidebar - was how the clones are often "better" than the original products, b/c they cram more features in. So yeah, the Meizu miniOne is better than the iPhone. I think the back of it can be used as a cheese grater, while the sides keep your hands warm and dry during the monsoon.

I wonder if the author would put his family in a knock-off Chinese car, like the Chery QQ, which they seemed to be so high on? Better indeed.

[stevesnj]

Its China, Apple can't do anything about it. China clones everything, PSP, iPods, TV's etc.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl 

I just saw that issue of Popular Science at the barbershop... Like 2 hours ago. My initial reaction to the article was disgust. It seemed like the magazine was championing the Chinese clone factories... Kind of a "Hey, look at what these guys can do." I got called for my haircut before I finished the article, so I'm admitting maybe my summary judgement is unfair, but I did see that part of the article - or maybe a sidebar - was how the clones are often "better" than the original products, b/c they cram more features in. So yeah, the Meizu miniOne is better than the iPhone. I think the back of it can be used as a cheese grater, while the sides keep your hands warm and dry during the monsoon.

I wonder if the author would put his family in a knock-off Chinese car, like the Chery QQ, which they seemed to be so high on? Better indeed.

Pull that flagpole out of your ass and read it again AFTER your morning coffee.

It's actually quite an interesting article, and it draws interesting parallels to Japan and Korea, both of whom were met with similar disgust twenty, thirty and forty years ago.

[DigitalEl]

Originally Posted by analogika

Pull that flagpole out of your ass and read it again AFTER your morning coffee.

Harsh words from someone with "anal" in his name. I fully admitted I didn't have time to thoroughly read the article and clearly stated that my summary judgement was based on a quick waiting room glance.

Get a grip, man. Sounds like you're the one who needs some morning coffee.

[DigitalEl]

I just finished the article online. My initial reaction wasn't too far off. While the eventual tone of the article does point out the inferiority of the current crop of knockoffs (clothes to phones to cars), its real point is that China is moving more rapidly towards respectability than Japan or Korea did before it. And the part I glanced at the barber shop - about Meizu's miniOne - was mostly praising the vaporware device for how much better than the iPhone it's going to be: mo betta features, available on more carriers, cheaper, blah blah blah...

It's funny that the bottom line always wins. That there is no "punishment," per se, for the knockoffs and for the Chinese government's turning a blind eye to such shady widespread practices. On one hand, China looks for legitimacy on the world stage, but on the other hand it acts like a Third World nation playing catch up. And the punishment so far... The Olympics.

Give it awhile. Soon our kids will be playing with more toys coated in lead paint and the flood of fake crap will continue. Nevermind long-term effects... To health, wealth or national security.

Nevermind the flagpole, analogika, it looks like the whole Western world has its collective head up its ass.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl 

Harsh words from someone with "anal" in his name. I fully admitted I didn't have time to thoroughly read the article and clearly stated that my summary judgement was based on a quick waiting room glance.

Get a grip, man. Sounds like you're the one who needs some morning coffee.

I note you made a sophisticated play on words with my username. Extra credit for you. Pick up your prize after recess.

Is this where I out-clever you to point out that the fact that you have the word "ale" in your username goes quite a ways towards explaining this bit you posted:

Originally Posted by DigitalEl 

I wonder if the author would put his family in a knock-off Chinese car, like the Chery QQ, which they seemed to be so high on? Better indeed.

"Disgust", angry smiley, a rolleyes, and a personal smear of the author of an article you didn't even read?

I dunno. Maybe over-reaction on my side. But your post begs the question of "why bother posting that, unless it really is some sort of weird patriotism?"

After all, the Chinese clone factories being "championed" are the same factories churning out the iPhone, and the Mac you typed that post upon. And the author addresses the points you mention, and even the Cherry QQ specifically, right here, on page 4.

I guess you didn't make it that far. Can't fault you for that.

But posting an uninformed opinion with an angry lash-out doesn't exactly speak for your capacity for reflection and self-restraint, either.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl 

Nevermind the flagpole, analogika, it looks like the whole Western world has its collective head up its ass.

^ Typed on a machine made in China, no less.

And btw, as mentioned both above and in the article, Korea and Japan started exactly the same way - by building cheap knock-offs of Western products.

I'd argue that the FAILURE of Sony's Betamax is better proof of the whole Western world having its collective head up its ass than the success of Lexus - which is just a goddamn "fake crap" rip-off, right?

[DigitalEl]

Dude, why are you so angry?

I have nothing against legitimate products, no matter where they're manufactured. The Gateway computer I use at work probably was made in China, just like my MacBook, iMac, iPhone and a bunch of parts for my car. As for Japan, until two weeks ago, both cars and the motorcycle in my garage came from Japan - although only the bike was actually built there and crated over.

If this was 20 or 30 years ago, my arguments about the knockoffs would be the same, but directed at Japan or Korea. Today they're doing great stuff. That was my only point.

I have no agenda in this discussion. I just shared my initial thoughts to the article the original poster brought up. After getting pwned (in your mind) by you, I went back and read the whole article once I had more time... And my initial thoughts weren't too far off. The author did point out the obvious problems with the way things are now, but - from the glossy cover to his fawning prose - he also praised the miniOne and other knockoff products as sometimes better (than the originals) and getting better.

Go ahead and prepare your witty retort now. FWIW, I'm out of this discussion... Which probably should be moved to the Political Lounge anyway, thus further guaranteeing that I'll never see or add to it again. You know what they say about arguing on the Internet, right?

Good day.

[analogika]

The point of the article is that you learn by doing knock-offs before turning into industry leaders.

You're angry at them for creating knock-offs.

In fact, Chery will now be building OFFICIAL Chrysler cars with the Chrysler badge, in a joint-venture. Do you have a problem with that?

When does a product become "legitimate"?

When it doesn't violate any laws?

What if Chinese copyright law doesn't cover these design infringements, due to the fact that decades of trade embargoes left Eastern-bloc countries absolutely no choice but to copy what they couldn't import?

And as for the knock-offs being sometimes better than the originals and getting better - why is this "fawning"?

It's absolutely true. Why does this anger you?

[dbranham]

Don't pay any attention to analogika. He initiates fights in every thread on this board. He's a socially maladjusted jerk. Period.

[cdetdi]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The point of the article is that you learn by doing knock-offs before turning into industry leaders.

You're angry at them for creating knock-offs.

In fact, Chery will now be building OFFICIAL Chrysler cars with the Chrysler badge, in a joint-venture. Do you have a problem with that?

When does a product become "legitimate"?

When it doesn't violate any laws?

What if Chinese copyright law doesn't cover these design infringements, due to the fact that decades of trade embargoes left Eastern-bloc countries absolutely no choice but to copy what they couldn't import?

And as for the knock-offs being sometimes better than the originals and getting better - why is this "fawning"?

It's absolutely true. Why does this anger you?

Analog, you fail to make a point in any of this. If you're going to slam someone, at least make a point worth reading.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by cdetdi 

Analog, you fail to make a point in any of this. If you're going to slam someone, at least make a point worth reading.

That you fail to *see* a point doesn't mean I'm not making one.

That was exactly what I thought when I read DigitalEl's comment about the author putting his family in a Chery QQ. I thought that was quite out of line, especially considering that a) the author specifically talked about the Chery QQ, and b) Chrysler, the very company that Chery copied, is now manufacturing its cars under license at the Chery factories.

What is DigitalEl's point?

Chery, the car manufacturer, disgusts him. Does Chrysler disgust him as well? After all, Chery is *their* joint-venture factory now.

He makes vague and angry rants about China making "fake-crap" knock-off products, but seems to forget that this is how EVERYBODY gets started.

Why is this a problem when China does it? And why should China be "punished" for it?

Coupled with the fact that he was ragging the author on an article he hadn't actually read, something rubs me completely the wrong way here.

[analogika]

dp.

[cdetdi]

I understand your grievance against the post slamming Chinese goods, but again, I don't see you making any point other than El being wrong. You ask a rhetorical question, you're not offering anything new.

Answers that I would like to see are why should it NOT be a problem if China fakes goods? If EL shouldn't be angry at QQ because of their new partnership, should EL be angry at Chrysler, or think of QQ as a legitimate car?

Perhaps the idea you are trying to get at is that "fake-crap" is the same stuff as "real crap? Is that your suggestion? People like El should not react so poorly against Chinese-faked goods. Thats a point.

In short, you can't call someone's opinions wrong by asking vague questions. I want to hear your responses, and I'll toss my opinions on the issue in when you offer something to go off of.

"Coupled with the fact that he was ragging the author on an article he hadn't actually read, something rubs me completely the wrong way here."

Okay, but slamming his intellegence without a thought-out counterpoint can be equally "rubbing", wouldn't you agree?

[::maroma::]

Ladies please!

[cdetdi]

haha, good point! I personally love this topic, the effects of Chinese counterfeits. (I don't like it when people drop their "crudentials" into an arguement, so I'm avoiding that here.)

[analogika]

Originally Posted by cdetdi 

Answers that I would like to see are why should it NOT be a problem if China fakes goods?

There's a point I was actually hinting at: I see the problem with this, of course.

However, getting angry over it strikes me as at least in part hypocritical, since the REASON behind the complete lack of copyright enforcement in formerly Eastern-bloc nations actually lies in the decades of trade embargoes - as mentioned above.

Reality being what it is, the other issue I have with this anger at China is that the "West" is profiting IMMENSELY from the economic structure in China being what it is. A $1000 MacBook at current build quality would be completely unthinkable without the exact same infrastructure that makes these clone products possible.

The way I see it, the Meizu phone is not a threat to the iPhone - it doesn't work the same way, and everything that actually makes the iPhone a great product is missing. This is true of all the iPod clones as well. They sell to a market that wouldn't buy the iPod/iPhone anyway.

What *is* a "danger" is the *know-how* being accumulated by building these products. Know-how which, however, is being readily supplied by Western companies eager to take advantage of cheap manufacturing in China.

Case in point: The Chery QQ. They copied a Chrysler car. They honed the precision and craftsmanship to the point where it was equal to the original (right down to large parts being interchangeable), but the design sucked (crash stability from hell).

Their work is now up to Chrysler standards, and Chrysler embraced the "competitor" in a contractual bind, using Chery to their own advantage.

However, once that contract expires, the Chinese will go on building cars, and *not* make the same design mistakes again.

Remember how Japanese cars were laughed at in the 60s, as cheap knock-offs of real cars...

Originally Posted by cdetdi 

If EL shouldn't be angry at QQ because of their new partnership, should EL be angry at Chrysler, or think of QQ as a legitimate car?

My question is why is he angry at Chery?
And if he's angry at Chery, he *must* be angry at Chrysler for valuing Chery's workmanship and actually rewarding them with a joint venture.

And why should the QQ NOT be considered a "legitimate" car?
My question was, up above, WHAT makes a product "legitimate"?

Originally Posted by cdetdi 

Perhaps the idea you are trying to get at is that "fake-crap" is the same stuff as "real crap? Is that your suggestion? People like El should not react so poorly against Chinese-faked goods. Thats a point.

And trying to make that point by trying to work out WHY he's reacting so poorly against said goods, and asking questions aimed a clarifying this, is a "socially maladjusted jerk" failing to make a point?

Remember, this whole thing started because I saw somebody blindly slagging Chinese products and an author, based upon an article he hadn't even read.

So I drew the conclusion that there was some sort of pride issue (why bother slagging something I haven't read?), combined with a preconception. So I told him to pull the flagpole (presumably with a Stars & Stripes banner on it) from his ass and actually READ the article.

Then I pointed out what I saw as the merits of the article.


Look, DigitalEl has come out and said that his only point was that he doesn't like knock-offs, and that he like what Korea and Japan are doing today. He likes legitimate products, no matter where they're from.

I've said that that's a hypocritical stance to take, since everybody gets started by copying designs, and that Korea and Japan wouldn't BE what they are today if they hadn't started with cheap knock-offs back in the day.

I also asked him what a "legitimate" product is supposed to be.

Is a Japanese transistor radio that completely copies a U.S. transistor radio's circuit a "legitimate" product? Does it become legitimate if a handful of components are rewired - just enough to make it compliant with copyright law? How about in the ABSENCE of any copyright law enforcement, as in China?

What constitutes legitimacy? Please, I want to know, so I can figure out when it's alright to be legitimately angry.

[frdmfghtr]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl 

Give it awhile. Soon our kids will be playing with more toys coated in lead paint and the flood of fake crap will continue. Nevermind long-term effects... To health, wealth or national security.

To get back on topic and stay out of the flamewar, the reason that China et al get away with it is because we, as a collective group of consumers/users/customers/what-have-you, want our goods and services on the cheap. If Apple wanted to manufacture the iPhone stateside, there is no technical reason why it couldn't do so. The reason for assembly overseas is that having iPhones assembled in China is cheap; foreign labor and shipping costs are less that domestic labor and facilities. The revenue lost by overseas cloning (iPhones, cars, whatever) is made up for by the cheaper cost of production; if losses due to copycats was greater than the production savings, then manufacturers would keep production domestic.

Lots of people complain about manufacturing being outsourced overseas, but bitch about the high cost of goods manufactured domestically. Ask yourself this: Do you want it cheap, or do you want it produced domestically? If you want domestic production to return, you have to be willing to pay the premium.

It's all much more complicated than my simple diatribe, but that's the simple way I see it.

[icruise]

Let's keep the discussion on topic. Talking about the iPhone and its knockoffs is fine. Name-calling is not. I'm closing this thread. If you want to talk about Chinese manufacturing or do general philosophizing about what makes a product legitimate, you can do it in the lounge or political lounge.