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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 64)
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OAW
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Jul 8, 2016, 01:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This post is 100% accurate if you pretend race isn't a thing.
Exactly.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 01:46 PM
 
Gingrich is speaks my sense about this stuff. I'm confused.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What's the relevant stat your citing here?
From the article:

“If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks,” said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book “Cop in the Hood.”

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

Mr. Moskos listed two possible reasons for the racial disparity. The first is that police assigned to largely black neighborhoods face “more political fallout when they shoot, and thus receive better training and are less inclined to shoot.”

The second is that police assigned to black communities with high crime rates are more accustomed to dangerous situations and thus are more likely to be able to resolve them without resort to lethal force.
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Okay, I guess we can pretend that whites aren't killed by police at a higher rate in these instances and those shootings simply aren't publicized to the same degree, due to a misguided narrative pushed by the media that blacks are victims of systemic racism.
This is just pure, unadulterated BS.

“If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks,” said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book “Cop in the Hood.”

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”
So IOW ... let's just "adjust" the statistics about the disparity of the rates at which blacks and whites die at the hands of cops by factors unrelated to the situation at hand. Why not "adjust" it for the robbery rate? Or the serial-killer rate? Or the child molestation rate? Or the rate at which puppies are neglected and abused.

Instead of trying to "adjust" such statistics by aggregate rates of crime within entire communities ... why not instead utilize statistics that control for identical factors in the scenarios being measured? You know ... so you actually end up comparing "apple to apples".

For instance, it's one thing to look at the racial disparities in people being killed by police in aggregate. But then when you control for things that are actually applicable to the situation at hand ...
  • Criminal History
  • Armed
  • Unarmed
  • Reason for Police Contact
  • Etc.

... then what do you see? And if any way you slice it by these types of identical factors you continue to see racial disparities then it's pretty impossible to reasonably argue that race is not a factor.

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Jul 8, 2016, 02:10 PM
 
Yeah, let's remove the environment entirely and look at all this within a vacuum, that makes sooo much sense. What the actual ****?
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yeah, let's remove the environment entirely and look at all this within a vacuum, that makes sooo much sense. What the actual ****?
So when an unarmed black man is killed in a low-crime neighborhood in Arizona during a traffic stop ... let's just "adjust" that with aggregate statistics that include the insane violent crime rate on the south side of Chicago huh?

You see I included "Etc." in the list. So to your contention. It's one thing to control for the racial disparities in homicide rates in the areas where the police killings actually took place. But to "adjust" such statistics by the aggregate racial disparities in homicide rates nationwide is disingenuous at best.

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Jul 8, 2016, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
So when an unarmed black man is killed in a low-crime neighborhood in Arizona during a traffic stop ... let's just "adjust" that with aggregate statistics that include the insane violent crime rate on the south side of Chicago huh?

You see I included "Etc." in the list. So to your contention. It's one thing to control for the racial disparities in homicide rates in the areas where the police killings actually took place. But to "adjust" such statistics by the aggregate racial disparities in homicide rates nationwide is disingenuous at best.
That actually sounds like an excellent idea, it's much better than just looking at blacks shot by police, completely disregarding the environment and circumstances, and screaming "racism!" all the time... let alone lumping the Castille and Sterling shootings together and claiming that they're anything close to the same, just because they were both black (which is truly racist).
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That actually sounds like an excellent idea, it's much better than just looking at blacks shot by police, completely disregarding the environment and circumstances, and screaming "racism!" all the time... let alone lumping the Castille and Sterling shootings together and claiming that they're anything close to the same, just because they were both black (which is truly racist).
Whoa! Hold up! Wait a minute!!!! CTP and I actually agree on something in this thread?



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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
From the article:
Thanks. What does 'rate at police are felonious my killed' mean exactly?
     
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:56 PM
 
This is what we know so far about the alleged shooter who was killed.



A suspect in the ambush of 12 Dallas police officers "wanted to kill white people, especially white officers," and was upset about recent police shootings, the city police chief said Friday.

Authorities killed the man after a standoff in a garage at El Centro Community College in the early hours of Friday morning, after several hours of negotiations. After exchanging gunfire with him, they "saw no other option" but to kill him by detonating a bomb, Dallas Police Chief David Brown said.

"Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger," he said.

Authorities did not identify the suspect. A senior law enforcement official told NBC News he is believed to be Micah Xavier Johnson, 25, from the Dallas area.

Johnson is a veteran who was in the Army Reserves from March 2009 to April 2015, the Army confirmed to NBC News. He served a tour of duty in Afghanistan from November 2013 to July 2014, and received several awards, including the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal.
Officials said Friday that due to the ongoing criminal investigation, they would not release information about suspects. Three people were taken into custody prior to the suspect being killed. It was unclear whether authorities still considered all of them suspects.

Earlier, they said there had been at least two snipers perched in garages downtown who fired on the officers in an "ambush-style" shooting.

But on Friday, Brown told reporters the suspect who was killed "stated that he was not affiliated with any groups and he stated that he did this alone."
Dallas Suspect Was Upset About Recent Police Shootings, 'Wanted to Kill White People' - NBC News

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Jul 8, 2016, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Thanks. What does 'rate at police are felonious my killed' mean exactly?
I do believe it is referencing the disparities in the rate at which police officers are killed in the line of duty by black/white/brown perps.

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Jul 8, 2016, 03:43 PM
 
14 Most Vile Tweets After Dallas Snipers Killed Police Show the Worst of BLM’s Anti-Cop Rhetoric

14 Most Vile Tweets After Dallas Snipers Killed Police Show the Worst of BLM’s Anti-Cop Rhetoric
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Jul 8, 2016, 05:01 PM
 
Now this is certainly something you don't see everyday.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a leading contender for the Republican vice presidential nomination, said Friday that white people tend to underestimate the persecution of African Americans at the hands of police.

"It's more dangerous to be black in America," Gingrich said during a Facebook Live conversation with liberal pundit Van Jones. "It's both more dangerous because of crime, which is the Chicago story. But it is more dangerous in that you're substantially more likely to end up in a situation where police don't respect you where you could easily get killed. I think sometimes for whites it's difficult to appreciate how real that is."


The comments came a day after five Dallas police officers were murdered by a racially-motivated gunman and the same week that two African-Americans were shot to death by police, sparking protests.

Later, after discussing what Jones would do to reform police departments, Gingrich weighed in on his own personal history with racial issues.

"It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years, to get a sense of this. If you are a normal, white American, the truth is you don't understand being black in America and you instinctively underestimate the level of discrimination and the level of additional risk in a way that you have to have a corrective. But the minute you start getting the corrective - so Black Lives Matter in a sense, and I like your point, Black Lives Matter, too, would in fact try to be a corrective, which initially people reject because it's not in their world.

So to the degree you're an African American, you are raising your teenage boys to be very careful in obeying the police because literally, their lives are at risk and they can see it on television. At the same time, if you're a normal Caucasian, you don't see that, that's not part of your experience. And somehow, we have to be able to have a conversation and a dialogue where the mutual experiences start to say, 'gee if that's true under what circumstances can we fix it.' On both sides.
"
Newt Gingrich: "It's more dangerous to be black in America" - CBS News

I'm in absolute agreement with something CTP and Newt Gingrich said about this issue ON THE SAME DAY!!!



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Jul 8, 2016, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Newt
It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years, to get a sense of this
He can be a tough nut to crack, but I've gotten the impression Newt is actually crackable, unlike your garden variety politician.
     
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Jul 8, 2016, 06:51 PM
 
The latest ...

The gunman in the ambush of 12 Dallas police officers "wanted to kill white people, especially white officers," and was upset about recent police shootings, the city police chief said Friday.

Dallas police on Friday identified the suspect, who they killed in the early hours of Friday morning, as Micah Johnson, 25.

So far, the investigation has led authorities to believe Johnson was the lone gunman in the ambush, multiple senior U.S. law enforcement officials told NBC News. In the hours immediately following the ambush, officials had said they believed there were two snipers.

Police searched Johnson's home and found bomb making materials, ballistic vests, rifles and ammunition and "a personal journal of combat tactics," police said in a statement Friday. Detectives are going through the journal, police said. He has no criminal history, police said.

Sources said investigators have found no links between Johnson and any extremist groups.
Johnson used a SKS rifle as well as a handgun during his attack on police, multiple law enforcement sources told NBC News.
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el chupacabra
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:41 PM
 
cop-tases-teen-into-cardiac-arrest

Has this been posted yet?
This story never made the rounds like others (because white lives dont matter?).

The cop didnt fear for his life due to race in this instance, he was simply "triggered" from the smart ass.

Basically the kid saw some youtube vids of how you can deal with cops based on your 'written' rights. The uselessness of written rights and the reality of natural laws were demostrated in this circumstance. Both cop and smart ass were in the wrong.
     
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Jul 8, 2016, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Basically the kid saw some youtube vids of how you can deal with cops based on your 'written' rights. The uselessness of written rights and the reality of natural laws were demostrated in this circumstance. Both cop and smart ass were in the wrong.
Yeah, but not in equal measure. Being a smartass or an asshole is not a crime, and does not warrant the use of a taser, especially excessive use of a taser.
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Jul 8, 2016, 10:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yeah, but not in equal measure. Being a smartass or an asshole is not a crime, and does not warrant the use of a taser, especially excessive use of a taser.
The officer was also sentenced to 4 years then 2 years supervised release. Not really sure what point el chupacabra was trying to make. It's an incident that should not have happened, however the young adult survived and the officer was punished.
     
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:58 PM
 
PP kills more on a daily basis than cops do in a year.
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Jul 9, 2016, 04:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
The officer was also sentenced to 4 years then 2 years supervised release. Not really sure what point el chupacabra was trying to make. It's an incident that should not have happened, however the young adult survived and the officer was punished.
Thanks for giving me some context. Although like you I don't quite get what el chupacabra wants to tell us with his post.
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Jul 9, 2016, 06:43 AM
 
Given the incidences of unarmed, non-dangerous perps who get shot dead for talking back or simply for running away, maybe the racism and the power-mad killer cop problems need to be dealt with separately.

For starters maybe these body cams need to be recording live to a remote server that doesn't belong to their precinct, but to the state or federal government.

Its pretty clear some new guidelines along the lines of "if a suspect flees you may only open fire if they represent an imminent threat to public safety", "don't shoot people with knives until they get into stabbing range, and use tasers if possible". Stuff like that.

I would have thought all the screening and evaluations would be set up to catch raving ego problems and power trippers. Seems to be a lot of them slipping through the net.
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Jul 9, 2016, 10:22 AM
 
Policing is decentralized in the states in a way I gather is very different from Europe. Each jurisdiction has its own setup.

I can walk 30 feet and the guidelines change.
     
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Jul 9, 2016, 11:45 AM
 
Well maybe they all should adopt the one that says "Don't shoot people just because you can."
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Jul 9, 2016, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
The officer was also sentenced to 4 years then 2 years supervised release.
Before he was sentenced you didnt have people rioting over this like they do for less conclusive hear-say police-brutality events that involve black people. The reason many cops get away with stuff is because of "innocent till proven guilty". In the absence of thorough video footage it's 1 guy's biased account against a witness's biased account, or multiple witness's with conflicting stories. In this case you have clear footage AND audio from start to finish proving 'without a doubt' the kid wasnt threatening in any way and ended up with one of the worst disabilities a person can have. Thats why the cop was found guilty.

Not really sure what point el chupacabra was trying to make. It's an incident that should not have happened,
Thats because Im not taking sides. I generally dont like police. I dont think the blacks in most videos should have been shot. But It doesnt matter what I think, just like it doesnt matter if a bureaucratic piece of paper somewhere says cops cant shoot you unless you technically threaten his life - paper doesnt protect people, it only assigns blame after the fact. Im saying the victims weren't completely powerless in the outcomes (and we're pretending they were). In most the videos we see people resisting arrest or at least arguing with the cops. The point is they'd still be alive today if they weren't. This contradicts the idea that the police are out of control terrifying maniacal racist murderers. If people truly believed that to be the case they'd comply fully with their requests in paralyzing fear. I dont understand because I cant imagine myself arguing with the police, I know my place, in all societies the guys with the guns rule the land. Even though I dont fully respect them due to their corruption, I at least respect their their power out of fear. We see this across the human race and the animal kingdom, lifeforms that have reason to be scared, act scared, rather than looking for a fight.

however the young adult survived and the officer was punished.
Partial brain death and all, but yeah most of him survived.
The border patrol makes $100-130k /year. If we really want the level of cool headed skill & professionalism (or hopefully better) of border patrol, while asking them to risk their life every day, we need to at least match that salary then account for cost of living in big cities. We need to be willing to pay cops at least $200k/yr. As a society how can we be so stupid as to think we can get everything we want for a job who's primary requirement is GED & pays so low.
     
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Jul 9, 2016, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Well maybe they all should adopt the one that says "Don't shoot people just because you can."
For the most part they do.

The fundamental hurdle is to invalidate a cop shooting you need to disprove they were in fear for their life. This is a hugely difficult proposition.

Compound it with the propensity cops have to alter important details in their favor.

Compound that with the system disincentivizing prosecutors from being adversarial towards cops.

We agree (I assume) there's a problem here, but it's not going to get unwound by diddling with field manuals.
     
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Jul 9, 2016, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Policing is decentralized in the states in a way I gather is very different from Europe. Each jurisdiction has its own setup.

I can walk 30 feet and the guidelines change.
Depends entirely on which country in Europe you're in. Italy for instance also has a million overlapping jurisdictions.
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Jul 9, 2016, 05:15 PM
 
And I guess Rome has the infamous eight types of cops all standing around doing nothing.

As an American, the ones with the submachine guns are eye catching.
     
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Jul 9, 2016, 05:47 PM
 
They seem to scare pretty easily. I'm going to refrain from re-posting the video of two British cops taking down a guy with a knife without anyone being hurt. I think it was posted in response to discussions in this thread about an incident where 6 US cops shot dead a guy with a knife from twenty feet away.
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Jul 9, 2016, 08:41 PM
 
Given that police are quitting in droves, and so few Millennials want to become officers, the problem will likely take care of it itself.
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Jul 10, 2016, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Given that police are quitting in droves, and so few Millennials want to become officers, the problem will likely take care of it itself.
Don't worry, Obama has plans in the making.
Obama Pushes More Federal Oversight of Cops After Dallas Attack on Cops - Breitbart
45/47
     
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Jul 10, 2016, 04:20 PM
 
Has anyone mentioned the 20 open carry morons who got in the way of the Dallas PD during the recent shooting?

Rather than saving the day and killing the bad guy, they predictably ran away instead. The police then had to chase all of them down and take them in for questioning to determine whether they were just morons and not in league with the shooter because they were wearing body armour and carrying rifles. Apparently they are complaining about being treated that way too.
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Jul 10, 2016, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Given that police are quitting in droves, and so few Millennials want to become officers, the problem will likely take care of it itself.
Do you have any data to back up that assertion?
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Jul 10, 2016, 09:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Thats because Im not taking sides. I generally dont like police. I dont think the blacks in most videos should have been shot. [...] In most the videos we see people resisting arrest or at least arguing with the cops. The point is they'd still be alive today if they weren't. This contradicts the idea that the police are out of control terrifying maniacal racist murderers. If people truly believed that to be the case they'd comply fully with their requests in paralyzing fear. [...] Even though I dont fully respect them due to their corruption, I at least respect their their power out of fear.
Are you serious?!?
The videos cause such a stir because average people see a slice of reality that they couldn't before. They can judge for themselves whether the cops' actions were morally (and should legally be) defensible or not. That includes being killed or seriously hurt simply because you protest a cop's actions. Nor should covering your face and some such be construed as “resisting arrest”. Authority based of fear is weak and just breeds more aggression. The people should decide what kind of police they want. One way or another, society is paying for it.
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Jul 11, 2016, 05:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Do you have any data to back up that assertion?
Police Face Severe Shortage of Recruits - ABC News
'Who needs this?' Police recruits abandon dream amid anti-cop climate | Fox News
California asks: where have all the cops gone?
Police Chief Magazine - View Article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...lice-shortage/
Half of Nevada Cops are Quitting, City Leaders Refuse to Comment | whotv.com
That's on the first page of results, it goes on, and on, and on...

I don't blame them, with domestic terror on the rise and hate groups like BLM shooting at them, it's a shitty job for very little pay. Why constantly risk your life for some of the most over-privileged, ungrateful assholes to walk the Earth?
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Jul 11, 2016, 08:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Police Face Severe Shortage of Recruits - ABC News
'Who needs this?' Police recruits abandon dream amid anti-cop climate | Fox News
California asks: where have all the cops gone?
Police Chief Magazine - View Article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...lice-shortage/
Half of Nevada Cops are Quitting, City Leaders Refuse to Comment | whotv.com
That's on the first page of results, it goes on, and on, and on...

I don't blame them, with domestic terror on the rise and hate groups like BLM shooting at them, it's a shitty job for very little pay. Why constantly risk your life for some of the most over-privileged, ungrateful assholes to walk the Earth?
I guess Obama will just have to federalize the remaining police, that way they are properly "trained" and will held held accountable if they FU.
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Jul 11, 2016, 08:56 AM
 
     
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Jul 11, 2016, 09:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I guess Obama will just have to federalize the remaining police, that way they are properly "trained" and will held held accountable if they FU.
Federalize who? If they all quit there's no one to federalize. The FBI won't do it, by law the Army can't do it, and unless they're going to install federal marshals as Judge Dredd wannabes, there's no one to fill the positions. Being an officer in an inner city is quite literally the shittiest job on Earth for $35k /year, even counting zookeepers who shovel elephant feces all day.
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Jul 11, 2016 at 10:23 AM. )
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Jul 11, 2016, 05:46 PM
 
Theses comments won't sit well with some folks.
Dallas Police Chief ‘We’re Asking Cops To Do Too Much In This Country’ « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth
We’re asking cops to do too much in this country” said Brown.

“Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve” said Brown. He listed mental health, drug addiction, loose dogs, failing schools as problems the public expects ‘cops to solve.’

“Seventy percent of the African American community is being raised by single women, let’s give it to the cops to solve that as well” said Brown. “Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.”
Chief Brown added:

When asked what advice he would give black men, Chief Brown said, “Become a part of the solution, serve your community. Don’t be a part of the problem…we’re hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in. We’ll put you in your neighborhood – we will help you resolve some of the problems you are protesting about.”
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OAW
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Jul 11, 2016, 06:44 PM
 
^^^^

I certainly see nothing out of line with what he said.

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el chupacabra
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Jul 11, 2016, 11:56 PM
 
What To Do When You Get Pulled Over - Coffey Anderson
I didnt realize there were so many people that dont already know and do this.

Coffey is already getting all kinds of flack and hate from the BLM crowd for this.
From the kind of people who use Twitter - "Man please! So people have to do all this to "make" an officer "feel" safe? "
YES! Thats what we actually do! It's what you're trained to do in drivers ed.
     
subego
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:18 AM
 
We weren't taught that in driver's ed.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
YES! Thats what we actually do! It's what you're trained to do in drivers ed.
That wasn't part of my driver's ed.
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:49 AM
 
North Carolina just signed a law removing body camera footage from public record.
     
Chongo
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Jul 12, 2016, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
What To Do When You Get Pulled Over - Coffey Anderson
I didnt realize there were so many people that dont already know and do this.

Coffey is already getting all kinds of flack and hate from the BLM crowd for this.
From the kind of people who use Twitter - "Man please! So people have to do all this to "make" an officer "feel" safe? "
YES! Thats what we actually do! It's what you're trained to do in drivers ed.
He missed if you are pulled over at night, turn on your interior lights.
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el chupacabra
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Jul 12, 2016, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Are you serious?!?
The videos cause such a stir because average people see a slice of reality that they couldn't before.
Thats the problem. Reactionary people are seeing a "slice" of reality and running with it. It's easy for a "slice" of reality to be fabricated into a lie.

Police Shooting From Two Different cameras - in 1 the "victim" looks innocent, in the 2nd he's shooting at cops

Remember the whole Henry Gates case where even Obama reacted too soon about how "stupid" the cops were, when it turned out the Gates never produced ID to prove he was breaking into his own house? In the broken tail light case we havent even seen what transpired including the cop shooting Catile, all we have is Reynolds account. Is it even a real "slice" of reality or is it made to look like one? Even I may have reacted too soon in taking Castile's side. Turns out he's a Crips gang member who was pulled over due to being a burglary suspect. Reynolds is a mom with selfies all over facebook of her drinking & driving as well as doing hard drugs. How trustworthy a character is she?

They can judge for themselves whether the cops' actions were morally (and should legally be) defensible or not.
Correct. They CAN do this, even though they shouldn't. Just like a cop CAN shoot anyone he wants for any reason even though he shouldn't; even though it is illegal. Which is why it's wise to respect the power out of fear.

Authority based of fear is weak and just breeds more aggression. The people should decide what kind of police they want. One way or another, society is paying for it.
You may not realize it but all successful societies are ruled by fear. It's not the law that stops people from robbing or killing you, it's the fear of the consequences of breaking the law as imposed by the enforcement castes. Laws which dont have brutal consequences are broken all the time.

In old times police and soldiers were usually one group. The king who could control these 'enforcers' ruled the land. His power came from (fear of) them - it was fear of the enforcers which kept the people in line and defined his territory, not fear of the king, allegiance, or moral guilt. Today, things are the same but the enforcer castes are divided into seemingly complex structures to provide the illusion that YOU-the-people rule the land. At the end of the day, government, rule, & law are all based on, and still begin and end with the police/ military/ soldier caste; and the fear of what they will do to us if we dont comply. In societies where police and soldiers lose power, civilization descends into chaos (such as whats happening in Venezuela, Brazil & Costa Rica etc right now in the global downturn).

In deciding what to do with these cops we need to be careful not to become too courteous to potential criminals. Lest we become ultra safe & idiotic like Britain, an empire who started with it all, who's been in the slow process of tearing itself apart for a long time. It's just a small little island and it's still on the verge of falling apart. Complete inability to govern just a few people - thanks to all those young educated voters. I dont even think they know who their leaders are... A parliament, a prime minister, a princess, a murderer queen who's supposedly just a placeholder but not really... anyway...
     
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Jul 12, 2016, 01:51 AM
 
The king's power came from providing material benefits to his subjects. If it wasn't for the king, the farm you worked would be in flames and you'd be either enslaved or dead.
     
el chupacabra
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Jul 12, 2016, 02:14 AM
 
Not in most cases - lots of examples of small communities or even individuals living their entire lives independently without raids & such. But in your scenario it's still fear based. The fear of being enslaved or dead without the kings protection, outways the cons of paying unfair taxes and submitting to a king's rule of law. All of which you will only follow to the extent you fear the kings enforcers. If the threat of being enslaved didnt exist you wouldn't want to submit to a ruling class and would only do so our of fear of their military/police.
     
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Jul 12, 2016, 03:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
We weren't taught that in driver's ed.
It was in mine, by an officer who visited the school.
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nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
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subego
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Jul 12, 2016, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Not in most cases - lots of examples of small communities or even individuals living their entire lives independently without raids & such. But in your scenario it's still fear based. The fear of being enslaved or dead without the kings protection, outways the cons of paying unfair taxes and submitting to a king's rule of law. All of which you will only follow to the extent you fear the kings enforcers. If the threat of being enslaved didnt exist you wouldn't want to submit to a ruling class and would only do so our of fear of their military/police.
Not in most cases? What is that statement based on?

In feudal Europe, the safe bet is your community will at some point face the spectre of war.

As for fear, the question at hand is to whether power over the peasants exists by virtue of the peasants fearing that power. With a feudal king, the answer is no. The fundamental expression of a king's power is protecting his subjects from external threat. The king can't get to part where he overtaxes the peasants if they're all dead and his kingdom is in ruins. The king being able to physically enforce his will upon the peasantry certainly enters the equation, but the power dynamic isn't as simple as a sword in the gut. While unequal, both sides are nonetheless entering into a contract.

Stepping out of the Wayback Machine, is one of the reasons I'm super polite to a cop who pulls me over because they could blow my head clean off? Yes. It's also because they've got a job to do, which I appreciate them doing, and have a genuine lack of desire to give them a hard time.

That said, I may feel differently if I got pulled over all the time. Likewise, my desire may not have been as genuine 25 years ago.
     
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Jul 12, 2016, 04:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Thats the problem. Reactionary people are seeing a "slice" of reality and running with it. It's easy for a "slice" of reality to be fabricated into a lie.
I think you misunderstood what I meant with slice of reality: You seem to have read my post as “slice of the truth of what has happened”. This is not what I meant. Some of the videos are evidence that some of the preposterously sounding stories of people are true. In the past the large majority of people (myself included) did not have to think hard when to decide whether to believe a police officer who is backed up by his partner or a repeat offender's crazy story. At least morally this vindicates some of these other stories even though they cannot be substantiated by evidence.

The fact that one single video in some situations is not enough because it either does not show what has happened before or after, or because the perspective becomes important, yes, but having a video is better than having no video.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Correct. They CAN do this, even though they shouldn't. Just like a cop CAN shoot anyone he wants for any reason even though he shouldn't; even though it is illegal. Which is why it's wise to respect the power out of fear.
I really don't get your philosophy here. Cops should not rule through fear, and fear is not the only way to preserve order in society. Least of which is fear of physical harm. If that is your idea of good police work, then I don't want your police patrolling my neighborhood.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
You may not realize it but all successful societies are ruled by fear. It's not the law that stops people from robbing or killing you, it's the fear of the consequences of breaking the law as imposed by the enforcement castes. Laws which dont have brutal consequences are broken all the time.
I have lived in many different cultures, and none of them were regulated by fear. Guilt (most of the West) and shame (Japan), yes, but not fear. Fear is neither a good regulator of human behavior nor is it a good deterrent, it traumatizes and stifles normal behavior and development.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
In deciding what to do with these cops we need to be careful not to become too courteous to potential criminals.
So killing someone unnecessarily is your idea of not being “too courteous”? Or framing somebody for a crime they did not commit?

The videos have sparked a conversation of what kind of policing society wants. And that is a good thing no matter where you stand, because it should be society who makes this choice — not the other way around.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
 
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