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Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 69)
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Waragainstsleep
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Apr 18, 2022, 12:19 PM
 
I like the simplification that conservatism is "Me, me, me." and liberalism is "Us, us, us."
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Laminar
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Apr 18, 2022, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I like the simplification that conservatism is "Me, me, me." and liberalism is "Us, us, us."
Prosperity of the individual drives prosperity of society.

vs.

Prosperity of society allows prosperity of each individual.

Take the first one too far and you end up with monopolies and an oligarchy. Take the second one too far and you lose all incentives for productivity and improvement.
     
subego
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Apr 18, 2022, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Well yeah - the historical/evolutionary strategy is "Thrive RIGHT NOW. No part of the future is guaranteed, so what might happen in 20 years doesn't matter right now."
Prehistoric strategy. The selection pressures which created it are those of 50,000+ years ago
     
subego
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Apr 18, 2022, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I like the simplification that conservatism is "Me, me, me." and liberalism is "Us, us, us."
Conservatism is “us, us, us… but not you.”

A/K/A tribalism.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 19, 2022, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Prehistoric strategy. The selection pressures which created it are those of 50,000+ years ago
Again, following this line of argumentation implicitly adopts a line of thinking that is mostly used to justify any sort of "culling" of society — because that's allegedly the "evolutionary pressure" of prehistoric times. Which is bollocks.

One could just as easily argue (and it has been) the evolutionary advantage that inclusion and pulling everybody through strengthens and stabilises society. It depends how wide you set the lens of "local" rivalries: competing families, competing villages, competing valleys, competing fiefdoms, kingdoms, or empires? Or continents? or - as is currently the only real survival advantage — planet?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 19, 2022, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Conservatism is “us, us, us… but not you.”

A/K/A tribalism.
Its a very limited us though. Doesn't seem to extend much beyond immediate family these days. And if you've ever seen large inheritances play out, greed often trumps family too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 19, 2022, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Prosperity of the individual drives prosperity of society.
I don't see much in the way of genuine concern for society from this side any more.


Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Take the first one too far and you end up with monopolies and an oligarchy. Take the second one too far and you lose all incentives for productivity and improvement.
The former has is playing out and has played out before. Has the second ever actually gotten to a crisis point? Feels like the fear of it is usually used to justify swinging the other way long before its a genuine problem.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Apr 19, 2022, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Again, following this line of argumentation implicitly adopts a line of thinking that is mostly used to justify any sort of "culling" of society — because that's allegedly the "evolutionary pressure" of prehistoric times. Which is bollocks.
High mortality is a selection pressure to have lots of babies (baby factory).

That’s not a justification to cull society, it’s the opposite.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 19, 2022, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
High mortality is a selection pressure to have lots of babies (baby factory).

That’s not a justification to cull society, it’s the opposite.
No, it's PRE-societal selection pressure. Society works by ensuring the survival of the society, not of the individual. Simply having lots of babies is not an advantage to survival of society, unless you have in place a framework to supply them and the caretakers with food and protection.

The second part of my post you replied to contains the pertinent context.
     
subego
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Apr 19, 2022, 05:30 PM
 
The conservative survival strategy creates a framework to supply these children and be caretakers for them by prioritizing:

1) The maintenance of authority structures and hierarchies
2) Belief in religion
3) The pursuit of tribal dominance.

These aren’t liberal strategies. In fact, generally speaking, liberals are outright antagonistic towards these strategies because they are neither fair or compassionate.
     
subego
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Apr 20, 2022, 05:15 PM
 
Ironically, it’s liberals who are the individualists. Liberals encourage people to let their freak flag fly. It’s no accident most artists are liberals.

Conservatives demand rigid conformity and submission to the collective. They’re commies minus the utopia bullshit.
     
subego
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Apr 20, 2022, 06:39 PM
 
I should add… liberals are also universalists. The implications of individualism change as one’s compassion casts a wider and wider net.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 21, 2022, 05:59 AM
 
Far left: we're gonna
get everyone's basic
needs met.

Far right: we're gonna
exterminate entire
social groups because
they are impure.

Centrists: I literally
cannot tell you two
apart.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 21, 2022, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Far left: we're gonna
get everyone's basic
needs met.

Far right: we're gonna
exterminate entire
social groups because
they are impure.

Centrists: I literally
cannot tell you two
apart.
For a completely arbitrary definition of "centrist".

The "Far left" in your explanation is actually pretty much the center. "Making sure everybody's needs are met" is literally the only job any government has.

Actual far left: we're gonna nationalise all private companies and means of production and pay everybody a living wage.
     
subego
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Apr 22, 2022, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Actual far left: we're gonna nationalise all private companies and means of production and pay everybody a living wage.
The irony I was pointing to is while founded in liberal morality, the dictatorship of the proletariat runs on conservative strategy. Replace religion with communist dogma, which demands submission to itself and the state. All the hierarchies they’ve ostensibly dismantled mysteriously reappear in red spades.

Baby factory? You mean more workers for the revolution, comrade.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 23, 2022, 08:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Actual far left: we're gonna nationalise all private companies and means of production and pay everybody a living wage.
I would say paying everyone a living wage even if they don't work (despite not having a reason) would be far left. Paying everyone a living wage for their job seems a regular amount of left at most.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Apr 23, 2022, 03:53 PM
 
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
     
reader50
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Apr 23, 2022, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
It fits OK in schools or churches (charities). In politics, far-left in my opinion.

Though nearly all the problems with that position are at the extremes. ie - tax rates on the top earners, and persistent needs for the absolute worthless never-achievers. Temporary support when needed (jobless claims, maternity leave, medical absence) doesn't get most people riled up. Just as tax rates on upper-middle class isn't a hot-button issue.
     
subego
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Apr 23, 2022, 06:08 PM
 
The second paragraph makes it sound not particularly far left.
     
Thorzdad
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May 19, 2022, 05:01 PM
 
Conference of U.S. conservatives opens in Orban's Hungary
In case you needed to be reminded what’s coming.
     
christ
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May 22, 2022, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't work anywhere else, because humans.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
subego
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May 22, 2022, 03:39 PM
 
Well, there’s some horseshoe theory for ya.
     
Thorzdad
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Jun 3, 2022, 10:25 AM
 
DeSantis moves to ban transition care for transgender youths, Medicaid recipients

And, in other witchhunting news...
Ohio House passes bill banning transgender girls and women from participating in high school and college athletics.

This one includes a genital inspection provision, to investigate anyone accused or suspected of being trans. The bill was attached at the last moment to an unrelated bill and passed the Ohio House. Republicans tried to pass a similar bill on its own last year and the governor said he would veto it. It’s unclear if he would veto the bill it’s attached to.
     
Laminar
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Jun 3, 2022, 11:28 AM
 
There was a shooting last night at the church I went to in college. Thursday night is when the college group meets - a man showed up before it started and shot two women and himself.

https://www.kcci.com/article/corners...sence/40181931
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 3, 2022, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I would say paying everyone a living wage even if they don't work (despite not having a reason) would be far left. Paying everyone a living wage for their job seems a regular amount of left at most.
Agreed. "Far left" was the package of nationalising all enterprise AND using the profits to pay everybody a living wage.

Making sure that everybody who has one full-time job can actually live off it isn't "left"; it's just the state doing its fucking job of ensuring the livelihood and health of its citizens.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Where does “ from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” fit?
It's in there: half of it is in "living wage" — that's an alien concept based on the radical leftist idea that people need to live; half of it in the assumption that those state-owned means of production probably need people working in them.

I'm not saying that this has ever worked, or that it even could work — I'm just readjusting the political scale for those who think the spectrum is between moderately conservative and outright fascism, because those are the only choices they seem to want.
     
subego
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Jun 3, 2022, 01:47 PM
 
So, this quote I gave is just “regular left”? That’s not where it came from of course.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 3, 2022, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, this quote I gave is just “regular left”? That’s not where it came from of course.
I gave a definition of actual „far left”.

You asked me where that left the classic Marxist slogan.

I replied how it was part of my definition of “far left”.
     
subego
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Jun 3, 2022, 02:38 PM
 
Thank you for clarifying! I was confused by the post.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 3, 2022, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Thank you for clarifying! I was confused by the post.
You know, I really appreciate that you didn't take the slight snarkiness inherent in my post personally and genuinely asked for clarification.

Apologies for the confusion. I opt for snark over clarity a little too often.
     
subego
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Jun 3, 2022, 03:51 PM
 
Well, I appreciate the clarification, and I apologize in that I often really do get genuinely confused by things which are relatively straightforward.

I’m an excellent editor (of other people’s writing, not my own) because if there’s a way to misunderstand a sentence I will find it.
     
subego
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Jun 3, 2022, 07:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
There was a shooting last night at the church I went to in college. Thursday night is when the college group meets - a man showed up before it started and shot two women and himself.

https://www.kcci.com/article/corners...sence/40181931
Ugh. That’s horrible and freaky.
     
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Jun 4, 2022, 01:17 PM
 
"If you're a Republican, you can't even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent or they're coming after you"
~ Louie “dumbest man in congress” Gohmert, in reaction to Peter Navarro arrest

FWIW, lying to the FBI is a felony.
     
subego
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Jun 4, 2022, 01:57 PM
 
If I understand the context correctly, he’s contrasting that a Democrat indicted on the same charge (Michael Sussmann) was trusted just to show up at trial rather than being thrown in the poke.

ETA: I have no idea how valid the comparison is, I’m only noting he’s making one, a fact obfuscated by the incomplete quote.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 4, 2022 at 02:29 PM. )
     
reader50
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Jun 4, 2022, 02:44 PM
 
I don't think any context is needed. After all, Louie Gohmert was the one who asked if the Forest Service or BLM could address climate change by adjusting the orbits of the Earth or Moon.
"We know there's been significant solar flare activity. And so, is there anything that the National Forest Service or BLM (Bureau of Land Management) can do to change the course of the moon's orbit or the Earth's orbit around the sun? Obviously, that would have profound effects on our climate," the congressman asked Eberlien.

Eberlien responded that she "would have to follow up with you on that one, Mr. Gohmert."
     
subego
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Jun 4, 2022, 03:04 PM
 
I’m someone for whom more context is welcome regardless.
     
subego
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Jun 4, 2022, 04:43 PM
 
Also, broken clock, etcetera.

If the two situations are comparable, it is notable if they’re receiving different treatment. Again, I have no idea if they truly are. They let Navarro keep his passport, so it would (at least superficially) indicate the Feds don’t think he’s that big a flight risk.

That said, Navarro is playing a batshit gambit of not lawyering-up. I’m almost positive if Sussmann didn’t get arrested it’s because his lawyer facilitated it. I say “if”, since TBH I don’t actually know for a fact Sussmann wasn’t arrested, only my cursory search failed to find evidence of it happening.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 5, 2022, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Ugh. That’s horrible and freaky.
It’s horrible and happens every fucking day in the United States.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 5, 2022, 01:29 PM
 
Sorry — three times a day, as it were.
     
subego
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Jun 5, 2022, 02:34 PM
 
What statistic are you thinking of? Homicide by gun in the US in 2019 was about 28 a day.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 5, 2022, 03:26 PM
 
Philly, Phoenix, El Paso.
     
Thorzdad
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Jun 5, 2022, 05:14 PM
 
Man. Things keep getting weirder and weirder in Uvalde.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 5, 2022, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Man. Things keep getting weirder and weirder in Uvalde.
What are you referring to specifically?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 6, 2022, 05:46 PM
 
So obviously any kind of gun ban is going to fail in the senate, and if Biden had the balls to issue an EO banning MRs (for example) I imagine there would be sufficient outcry and pushback that it wouldn't last long. From the outside, it is beginning to feel like there might be enough sentiment building to make some kind of change though. Perhaps you disagree being closer to things?

What if the dems said: "Hey, you want more armed police in schools, more cameras, gates, detectors, security features etc? We also think schools need to make sure they have counsellors trained in treating trauma and such and medical staff and equipment to treat gunshot victims. How do we pay for it all though? Lets tax the shit out of guns."

Its not a ban so the SC can't touch it, right? Could that stick?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2022, 08:20 PM
 
I’m not convinced conservatives want those things.


ETA: As I think was mentioned before, Biden can’t ban a gun by EO. EOs are policy directives to federal agencies. He can’t direct them to treat legal activity as illegal. The courts would immediately strike that down (as well they should).

Edit 2: ARs?
( Last edited by subego; Jun 6, 2022 at 08:55 PM. )
     
reader50
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Jun 6, 2022, 09:21 PM
 
I'd be OK with restricting assault rifles to 21+. Perhaps those red-flag laws too, where weapons are restricted for those who exhibit warning signs. Say, domestic disputes resulting in police response.
     
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Jun 6, 2022, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I'd be OK with restricting assault rifles to 21+. Perhaps those red-flag laws too, where weapons are restricted for those who exhibit warning signs. Say, domestic disputes resulting in police response.
You could also think about mandatory waiting periods and the like.

In addition to those mandatory things, I'd also suggest to have lots of voluntary measures. For example, vets who suffer from PTSD are more likely to commit suicide. Veterans Affairs could support a buddy system where friends keep an eye on someone who isn't stable and ask them to keep their guns until their mental state stabilizes. Another easy one are gun buy backs.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m not convinced conservatives want those things.
Is that really true, though? I think there are plenty of measures that have broad support amongst the US population across the political spectrum. Mandatory background checks is one that comes to mind.
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Jun 6, 2022, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Another easy one are gun buy backs.
Side note, my objection to gun buy backs is the traded-in guns are usually destroyed. Not resold, no matter the quality of the gun.

Someone sells them something priceless from the 1800s. But the buyback terms require destruction - so, poof. A good quality gun of any vintage shouldn't be destroyed. Even though I read mostly in electronic form today, I have trouble trading in my printed books. Because I know most will be destroyed today. Finely machined products, worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, should not be treated as trash.
     
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Jun 6, 2022, 09:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Side note, my objection to gun buy backs is the traded-in guns are usually destroyed. Not resold, no matter the quality of the gun.

Someone sells them something priceless from the 1800s. But the buyback terms require destruction - so, poof.
Two honest questions: (1) How big of a concern is that really? I don't think the majority of guns are of any historical value. And (2) this indicates to me that the person who owned this gun doesn't know its value. That happens in other areas all the time where e. g. people own rare collectible books and aren't aware of their value. In practice, I would expect that this happens very rarely.
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
A good quality gun of any vintage shouldn't be destroyed. Even though I read mostly in electronic form today, I have trouble trading in my printed books. Because I know most will be destroyed today. Finely machined products, worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, should not be treated as trash.
I think the biggest correlation to gun violence is the sheer number of guns, and meaningful change in the US would only come from a significant reduction in the number of firearms. (And they should be recycled, not thrown away, of course.)
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Jun 6, 2022, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I'd be OK with restricting assault rifles to 21+.
New York just did exactly that. We’ll see how that goes.
     
subego
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Jun 6, 2022, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Is that really true, though? I think there are plenty of measures that have broad support amongst the US population across the political spectrum. Mandatory background checks is one that comes to mind.
My guess is what most conservatives support is forcing dealers to run background checks on their customers, and that’s what they’re imagining when they affirm the idea. This is more or less the law now.

Mandatory checks on private sales is what doesn’t fly.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 6, 2022 at 10:35 PM. )
     
 
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