[version]

I can't believe the sheer audacity of these dirty US officials. Who do they think they are telling nations, appearing to be the a voice that must be heard in domestic affairs.

I'm sick of this, if it's not Iraq, it;s Iran, now Syria, Sudan, etc. Al these Muslim nations being taken for fools by the dirty right-wing Americans, filthy bastards.

I honestly hope the US doew try to invade Iran, and N. Korea, I hope they spread themselves so thin that they get the utter **** kicked out of them, I really do. Wankers.

This just takes the biscuit this does, telling the Saudis they must allow Christian crosses and churches in the Muslim holy land.

Muslims, wake up, these muthafukcers are taking you for a ride, use what you can to humilate theor filthy deeds.


Just look at the American losses in Iraq so far, over 1000, let's hope Iraqis manage to kick the pig dogs out of there. They can hardly handle Afghanisan, the Taliban are back in power in many areas, but the US won;t publish the figures of what is happening now.

They can hardly hold in to these places, the more the procks try to invade, the more they will lessen their grip. But then, amojngst the lies of war, we'l see the hypocritical Americam arsebandits use thoose weapins they say they are outlawing, WMDs. Of course, all in the name of freedom.

Anyway, had to get this off my chest.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3660458.stm

[Millennium]

So the US sucks when they do bad stuff (Iraq), and they suck when they do good stuff (push for religious freedom).

How, then, should they not suck? Go completely isolationist and never meddle in world affairs again? Or enslave itself to the rest of the world, doing whatever they tell it with nary a thought for its own well-being, simply because the rest of the world says it should?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
So the US sucks when they do bad stuff (Iraq), and they suck when they do good stuff (push for religious freedom).

How, then, should they not suck? Go completely isolationist and never meddle in world affairs again? Or enslave itself to the rest of the world, doing whatever they tell it with nary a thought for its own well-being, simply because the rest of the world says it should?

Why would they feel compelled to do 'good stuff' in the first place. If SA doesn't want Christianity or other religions than Islam then why force them? Or try to coerce them. Or whatever.

Honestly wondering.

[BlackGriffen]

About bloody time. SA needs to reform itself in a big way.

BG

[voodoo]

Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
About bloody time. SA needs to reform itself in a big way.

BG

Well yes but how about something more important like a regime change? Democracy? They should be an easy target

[thunderous_funker]

As long as the world economy depends on kissing SA arse, nothing will ever change.

This has about as much meaning as the Middle East Peace Roadmap. What a joke.

Anyone really think that the occasionally strongly worded letter from the US to SA means anything at all? This is pure political theater. Make a flashy speech that says all the right things because all the players involved know that it means absolutely nothing.

[mr. natural]

Posted by thunderous_funker:

As long as the world economy depends on kissing SA arse, nothing will ever change.

Where's the cartoon showing us giving head to a Suadi Arabian while getting shafted up the bum by another Saudi.

It should be posted on all our foreheads.

Indeed, what a joke, but the laugh is on us. What dick heads we are.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Why would they feel compelled to do 'good stuff' in the first place. If SA doesn't want Christianity or other religions than Islam then why force them? Or try to coerce them. Or whatever.

Honestly wondering.

I get the feeling we're both playing devil's advocate here, but I find this intriguing. Isn't freedom of worship supposed to be a basic human right? Last I checked, complaining about human rights abuses was par for the course on pretty much every side of the fence, despite the argument about which human rights are actually legitimate.

[PacHead]

How about we ban islam in the USA ?

I take it version, voodoo etc. would support this, and not have any problems with this.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by PacHead:
How about we ban islam in the USA ?

I take it version, voodoo etc. would support this, and not have any problems with this.

Apples to Oranges, my friend. . . . IF the United States was a Christian theocracy with some
Pope-like figure as its head then absolutely, the US could outlaw Islam. Heck, it would have
to outlaw non-Christian religions to be a theocracy.

But, thankfully we are not a Christian theocracy . . . yet. (Bet you couldn't see that one coming. )

[dcolton]

I don't know man...I just want to hit whatever the original poster is smoking!

[Zimphire]

Wait, I thought the US was Saudi's puppet...

What is this.. us coming against them!?!?

Where are the spins?

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Wait, I thought the US was Saudi's puppet...

What is this.. us coming against them!?!?

Where are the spins?

Where the hell do you get your information from?

[Zimphire]

The Liberals of course!

I was told Bush was big pals with the Saudis and that we kiss their butt.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The Liberals of course!

I was told Bush was big pals with the Saudis and that we kiss their butt.

I believe there was some fraudumentary which stressed this point also.

[Zimphire]

[Millennium]

Originally posted by PacHead:
I believe there was some fraudumentary which stressed this point also.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that there are quite a few people for whom the US can't do anything right, no matter what it might be. We could have the US distributing puppies and rainbows to all the children of the world and they'd find something to complain about.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by PacHead:
How about we ban islam in the USA ?

I take it version, voodoo etc. would support this, and not have any problems with this.

Not really, but then we wouldn't consider the US anything else but a fascist dictator state then. A country without religious freedom is crap. SA is indeed crap, and much more than just religious freedom would be achieved there with a simple regime change and democratization. Then again perhaps not all problems. Some countries think they are civilized yet have capital punishment. Tsk tsk. Very un-Christian.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that there are quite a few people for whom the US can't do anything right, no matter what it might be. We could have the US distributing puppies and rainbows to all the children of the world and they'd find something to complain about.

Ask yourself this: has anyone been bothering the US to go and push for religious freedom in SA? No.

Naturally that means if you would do such a thing there is a significantly better odds that someone will get angry.

Point being, stop crying about a catch 22 when there isn't any. In this case you may be damned if you do, but not if you don't.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I get the feeling we're both playing devil's advocate here, but I find this intriguing. Isn't freedom of worship supposed to be a basic human right? Last I checked, complaining about human rights abuses was par for the course on pretty much every side of the fence, despite the argument about which human rights are actually legitimate.

Yes naturally - we are both playing the devil's advocate. That is of course part of a good discussion no?

Of course we are all for human rights. I assume so anyway. I'd want to see religious freedom in SA. Everywhere in fact. However the end doesn't justify the means and forcing or coercing these things doesn't really work. It is the environment in SA that creates this 'Islam only' policy. It is that SA is a theocratic monarchy. Remember Iraq? With Saddam? Religious freedom there. Christian churches in Baghdad, Jewish synagogues..

The only way to get human rights into SA is to remove the Saudis. IMHO. Still, it must be a matter of priorities. How high in the priorities list is religious freedom in SA? Compared to say, peace and stability in a democratic Afghanistan? Iraq?

[zen jihad]

It's quite the irony that one of Al-Qaeeda's founding principles (and other anti-Saudi groups) is to allow freedom of religion in Saudi.

I think my main beef with the US making this statement, is just another example of them tryng to mould nations into their (The US') way of thinking. Let nations decide what is best for their countries, the lack of freedoms of religion in Saudi would only be a problem if Saudi was composed of any decent sized popluce of non-Muslims. Ex-pats don't count, but they get to live pretty much their own way of living anyway.

This is just dtangerous grounds now for the US to start this kind of tactics. What are they intending to do Isolate Saudi in the near future for punitive action? I can see all hell breaking loose if they touch the Saui nation.

[deedar]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Where the hell do you get your information from?

He makes it up.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Ask yourself this: has anyone been bothering the US to go and push for religious freedom in SA? No.

So the US should only do what other people -and particular not people actually living in the US- tell it to do; is that it?

In this case you may be damned if you do, but not if you don't.

I don't know about that. There are an awful lot of people complaining about us supporting a Saudi Arabia, and its lack of religious freedom is near the top of their list of reasons why this is something to complain about.

[Shaddim]

*yawn*

What's that buzzing I hear? OH, it's the citizens from other countries bitching about the U.S. again! For a second there, I thought it might be someone who really matters. Nevermind then, just continue with your circle-jerk.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
So the US should only do what other people -and particular not people actually living in the US- tell it to do; is that it?

Well I think it would be fair to ask the foreigners since this isn't really an interest for US citizens per se. Fair no?

I mean whether there is religious freedom in SA doesn't affect Joe Sixpack all that much so if the US administration feels they should do some benevolent acts towards a people that are not their own then perhaps they should ask nicely and not force anything upon them against their will.

If it is a ma jor concern for the administration then working slowly and surely and effectively in the long run for such a goal is the right thing to do.

[Spliffdaddy]

I've noticed that you cannot fail if you never try.

Which explains why the US is the only country that ever fails.

Of course, you can't succeed without trying.

Which explains why the US is the only country that ever succeeds.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
*yawn*

What's that buzzing I hear? OH, it's the citizens from other countries bitching about the U.S. again! For a second there, I thought it might be someone who really matters. Nevermind then, just continue with your circle-jerk.

Quite tiresome, I agree.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
*yawn*

What's that buzzing I hear? OH, it's the citizens from other countries bitching about the U.S. again! For a second there, I thought it might be someone who really matters. Nevermind then, just continue with your circle-jerk.

That is just knee-jerking. Why is it you find it difficult to discuss an issue without bringing irrelevant things like nationality into it. It's not like you can affect the Bush administration any more than I even though you can vote in the US. You're just one in 200+ million.

[Spliffdaddy]

It's 300 million - and we don't even count you at all.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I've noticed that you cannot fail if you never try.

Which explains why the US is the only country that ever fails.

Of course, you can't succeed without trying.

Which explains why the US is the only country that ever succeeds.

This is the "throw enough shait on the wall something is bound to stick" approach. There are more cleaver ways to achieve a goal.

Going downtown and hitting on every single girl you meet will probably get you laid eventually but the results (and the girl) are a bit ambiguous. Alternatively you could get to know a girl, start to like her and attempt to charm her to you. A bit harder but so much better.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
It's 300 million - and we don't even count you at all.

I know you don't

Thanks for the correction.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voodoo:
That is just knee-jerking. Why is it you find it difficult to discuss an issue without bringing irrelevant things like nationality into it. It's not like you can affect the Bush administration any more than I even though you can vote in the US. You're just one in 200+ million.

No, it's just comical that the "hate the US" crowd bitches about anything in regards to this country. Yet, you have so many economic, social, and religious problems of your own. Perhaps, if you spent as much time fixing your own country as you do posting on here bitching about the U.S., your respective countries might not be quite so threatened by us? Hmmm?

[deedar]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
*yawn*

What's that buzzing I hear? OH, it's the citizens from other countries bitching about the U.S. again! For a second there, I thought it might be someone who really matters. Nevermind then, just continue with your circle-jerk.

The buzzing you hear is coming from a "whole lot" of other Americans. Do we matter to you?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, it's just comical that the "hate the US" crowd bitches about anything in regards to this country. Yet, you have so many economic, social, and religious problems of your own. Perhaps, if you spent as much time fixing your own country as you do posting on here bitching about the U.S., your respective countries might not be quite so threatened by us? Hmmm?

I'm not a part of any 'hate US' crowd so please don't peg me into that pigeonhole.

Another misconception of yours is that I am trying or even *can* try to fix any problems the US has. HAhaha. Thanks for the word of confidence though

No, I'm just having a discussion on an international computer forum.. An exchange of ideas. I'm sorry I didn't know we were making policies for the White House!

Finally I assure you my country does not feel threatened by the US.

[Spliffdaddy]

Our military planners located Iceland back in 1997. Until then, we figured it to be a rumor.

We can find your piss-ant country, too. Given enough time and resources.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by deedar:
The buzzing you hear is coming from a "whole lot" of other Americans. Do we matter to you?

Not really.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I'm not a part of any 'hate US' crowd so please don't peg me into that pigeonhole.

Another misconception of yours is that I am trying or even *can* try to fix any problems the US has. HAhaha. Thanks for the word of confidence though

No, I'm just having a discussion on an international computer forum.. An exchange of ideas. I'm sorry I didn't know we were making policies for the White House!

Finally I assure you my country does not feel threatened by the US.

Good. Then work on your country's issues. And no, we don't discuss "international issues", people predominantly post in this forum to bitch about the U.S.. That tells me you're scared, scared because your country can't bargain or deal from a position of strength, but the U.S. can. Yeah, that threatens you, whether you want to admit it or not.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Good. Then work on your country's issues. And no, we don't discuss "international issues", people predominantly post in this forum to bitch about the U.S.. That tells me you're scared, scared because your country can't bargain or deal from a position of strength, but the U.S. can. Yeah, that threatens you, whether you want to admit it or not.

I don't think you appreciate where I am coming from. First you must accept that nothing anyone says on this forum has any effect on anything, second you must accept that in that light no-one here has vested interest in posting his or her political opinons here and thirdly you don't have to be a part of something to criticize it.

I frankly have no financial or ideological interest in seeing that my country can play in the sandbox with the Bush administration. It doesn't matter one squat to me personally. I do like to discuss these things for I am a politically minded individual so I find political discussions very interesting. Can you appreciate the difference??

Now I'm asking you to make an effort on your part to understand where I'm coming from because I think you are smart enough to do so.

The only thing I am scared of has nothing to do with the USA.

You are not from Iraq yet you had opinions about Iraq, you are not in the Green Party yet you have opinions about Ralph Nader, you don't work for Apple yet you have an opinion on their products, you are not religious yet you have opinions on religion.

How it is hard for you to grasp that you don't have to be a part of something be it a country or political party to have an opinion on it and to discuss it is beeeeyond me. That's why I'm handing you this olive branch now. It's yours.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I don't think you appreciate where I am coming from. First you must accept that nothing anyone says on this forum has any effect on anything, second you must accept that in that light no-one here has vested interest in posting his or her political opinons here and thirdly you don't have to be a part of something to criticize it.

I frankly have no financial or ideological interest in seeing that my country can play in the sandbox with the Bush administration. It doesn't matter one squat to me personally. I do like to discuss these things for I am a politically minded individual so I find political discussions very interesting. Can you appreciate the difference??

Now I'm asking you to make an effort on your part to understand where I'm coming from because I think you are smart enough to do so.

The only thing I am scared of has nothing to do with the USA.

You are not from Iraq yet you had opinions about Iraq, you are not in the Green Party yet you have opinions about Ralph Nader, you don't work for Apple yet you have an opinion on their products, you are not religious yet you have opinions on religion.

How it is hard for you to grasp that you don't have to be a part of something be it a country or political party to have an opinion on it and to discuss it is beeeeyond me. That's why I'm handing you this olive branch now. It's yours.

But there is a difference, Voodoo. Many times, the 'opinions' of non-Americans are nothing more than attacks or a some sort of condenscending rant that illustrates a holier than thou attitude when it comes to American politics and policy. YOur foreign comrades have this attitude, that is readily expressed, that is little more than a orgy of insults directed towards Americans in general and as a nation. We are not Europe. We have a seperate culture, different ideologies, and our own interest. You guys seem to think as if we should act in the interest of Europe or the posters homeland. It is almost as if foreign posters want to minimize the fact that the US is a sovereign nation. Why is that? I believe it is because many Europeans dismiss the states because

1. We are young as a nation
2. We are the [benovolent] superpower
3. Despite our presence throughout the world, we are situated thousands of miles away with a unique culture that you guys just can't seem to understand.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by deedar:
He makes it up.

I expect a apology



Not that I will get it. You didn't apologize the last time I proved you wrong.

If you are going to make asinine claims like above, at least have something to back you stance up with.

Otherwise you start to look silly.

[deedar]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I expect a apology



Not that I will get it. You didn't apologize the last time I proved you wrong.

If you are going to make asinine claims like above, at least have something to back you stance up with.

Otherwise you start to look silly.

Zimpy, Zimpy, Zimpy ...

Regarding your assertion that you proved me wrong earlier - We get 16% of our oil from Canada. This hardly qualifies as "most", which was your claim - which you never backed up, BTW. Look at your own linky...

Regarding the current assertion, posting a picture of a cover of a book is supportive of nothing.

Lastly, anyone who posts comments like this:

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This is my country too. And, I'll continue to work towards the end that someday, somehow we will never again have a president that thinks other countries know what is best for ours. That thinks we don't need a military, that the UN can handle all. That is idealistic and ignores terrorist threats, and blames our country for such attacks.

Which you posted as a mockery of a post of mine, is in no postion to demand an apology.

Sorry, dude. I owe you absolutely nothing.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by deedar:
Zimpy, Zimpy, Zimpy ...

Regarding your assertion that you proved me wrong earlier - We get 16% of our oil from Canada. This hardly qualifies as "most", which was your claim - which you never backed up, BTW. Look at your own linky...

I indeed backed it up. Could you please show me some text to back up your assertion that we only get 16% of our oil from Canada?

Regarding the current assertion, posting a picture of a cover of a book is supportive of nothing.

LOL!!!! Do you even know what that book is about ? Your digging your hole deeper by backpeddling deedar.
[quote][b]
Lastly, anyone who posts comments like this:

Which you posted as a mockery of a post of mine, is in no postion to demand an apology.

Your post was ripe with bizarro descriptions and all out dishonesty. So was mine. But I KNOW it was. And admit it. I doubt you will.

Sorry, dude. I owe you absolutely nothing.

Keep telling yourself that.

I'll be waiting for proof about the whole Canada thing. Of course in thisthread. So this one isn't derailed.

Here is something for you to chew on.




So that is TWO apologies you owe me.

Get to them.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well I think it would be fair to ask the foreigners since this isn't really an interest for US citizens per se. Fair no?

All the US did was express an opinion: namely, that Saudi Arabia is a cause for concern when dealing with the topic of religious freedom.

Is the US not even allowed to express an opinion unless told to by others?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
All the US did was express an opinion: namely, that Saudi Arabia is a cause for concern when dealing with the topic of religious freedom.

Is the US not even allowed to express an opinion unless told to by others?

I was playing the devils advocate - I don't see anything particularly bad about the US administration expressing their desires or wishes to their allies or enemies. If they went on to force the matter I'd feel differently about it.


An interesting discussion nevertheless

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voodoo:
You are not from Iraq yet you had opinions about Iraq, you are not in the Green Party yet you have opinions about Ralph Nader, you don't work for Apple yet you have an opinion on their products, you are not religious yet you have opinions on religion.

Those are issues that relate directly to my country. I own many Macs, and own a sizeable amount of Apple stock, so they are important to me.

And as for religion, in my own way I'm very religious, I'm just not particularly dogmatic.

See, all these things are things that mean something to me directly, I don't get into discussions regarding matters that don't directly affect me. However, everybody from every backwater country on the planet has some derrogatory thing to say about the U.S.. Is this a matter of your own country being boring? Not able to do anything to better your own lives, rather than bitch about someone on the other side of the world? Maybe, just maybe, if the citizens of other countries would take care of their own matters, they wouldn't be in such a froth over our policies.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Those are issues that relate directly to my country. I own many Macs, and own a sizeable amount of Apple stock, so they are important to me.

And as for religion, in my own way I'm very religious, I'm just particularly dogmatic.

See, all these things are things that mean something to me directly, I don't get into discussions regarding matters that don't directly affect me. However, everybody from every backwater country on the planet has some derrogatory thing to say about the U.S.. Is this a matter of your own country being boring? Not able to do anything to better your own lives, rather than bitch about someone on the other side of the world? Maybe, just maybe, if the citizens of other countries would take care of their own matters, they wouldn't be in such a froth over our policies.

While you don't surprise me you disappoint me.

This is what I mean dcolton.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
While you don't surprise me you disappoint me.

The song he is playing is called "Keine Substanz"

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
***

Words escape you?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voodoo:
While you don't surprise me you disappoint me.

This is what I mean dcolton.

and you obviously disappoint me, not working harder to help your country. Surely you gents in Spain have issues to work on, or is the allure of U.S. politick too great?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
and you obviously disappoint me, not working harder to help your country. Surely you gents in Spain have issues to work on, or is the allure of U.S. politick too great?

No, it's just the dominating topic in this lounge. You wouldn't see me missing from a political discussion involving Spain. I'd be overjoyed to be able to participate with all the other people from all arounf the world. The US included.