Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Macpilot · Jun 28, 2004, 02:48 PM

So far this looks like the weakest upgrade for OS X so far. I just don't understand what the heck is the big deal with this widget thing. What the hell is the menu bar for? Expose works fine right now. And the new searching? I don't see the great leap forward. I can do a very thorough search right now in the Finder or with command-F. Maybe by the time this is released there will be more actually useful stuff, but so far I am keeping my $130.

SMacTech · Jun 28, 2004, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
And lose money on Konfab?

Actually, I would think they have a chance to make MORE money, as everyone who buys a new Mac (after Tiger is released of course) will have MORE customers. I am more apt to develop for it, then Konfabulator. It won't kill that product, and may make it even better. Competition is a good thing, especially for consumer.

Horsepoo!!! · Jun 28, 2004, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by JLL:
Please remember that they will be having sessions where the attendees are under NDA during the week.

True...but do you think they'll reveal any huge features during those sessions? Apple normally introduces the big ones publicly. I hope I'm wrong but if that's it for new features (and if CoreImage wasn't one of the cool new features), I wouldn't buy Tiger.

drainyoo · Jun 28, 2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
I just don't like the idea of rolling so much into the OS. It's like Apple is going the way of Windows. Leave it as an application, that way I don't have to open it. But don't force me to run the thing if I don't want to use it.

I hear ya but im sure you arent going to be forced to use it.

Horsepoo!!! · Jun 28, 2004, 02:57 PM

Actually, I'm going through the stuff on the Tiger webpage and it looks pretty cool.

RooneyX · Jun 28, 2004, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by SMacTech:
Actually, I would think they have a chance to make MORE money, as everyone who buys a new Mac (after Tiger is released of course) will have MORE customers. I am more apt to develop for it, then Konfabulator. It won't kill that product, and may make it even better. Competition is a good thing, especially for consumer.

That's what M$ says. Monopolies do not fair competition make.

drainyoo · Jun 28, 2004, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
That's it?

That's really, really disappointing.

No mentions of QT7, no mentions of a new, better Finder (other than that Spotlight ****), no mentions of a new database. Apple is slacking off...the only exciting news is 64-bit, the codec, iChat and CoreImage.

Slacking off? WTF are you talking about dude? They are the only company that gives constant updates to the OS and they are always looking to make the OS better for us and all you can do is complain?

What the hell did you want?

If you arent happy then go buy a Dell.

kcmac · 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Macpilot:
So far this looks like the weakest upgrade for OS X so far. I just don't understand what the heck is the big deal with this widget thing. What the hell is the menu bar for? Expose works fine right now. And the new searching? I don't see the great leap forward. I can do a very thorough search right now in the Finder or with command-F. Maybe by the time this is released there will be more actually useful stuff, but so far I am keeping my $130.

You can go command F and find something in mail, inside a pdf, inside AddressBook, etc?
Wow. I want your computer.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/searchtechnology.html

Turias · Jun 28, 2004, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by drainyoo:
I hear ya but im sure you arent going to be forced to use it.

Well, if it's in the OS, then technically, it is always running. I don't want my Operating System to become bloated with features that many of us don't want to use.

SMacTech · Jun 28, 2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
Well, if it's in the OS, then technically, it is always running. I don't want my Operating System to become bloated with features that many of us don't want to use.

Then go back to OS 9. There are many features in Panther, that some of us are still finding. Just because a feature is available in the OS does not mean it is always running!

Powaqqatsi · Jun 28, 2004, 03:08 PM

Finder Search

Searching for files and folders using the Finder�s search field is smarter, faster and more flexible than ever. In addition to searching on traditional file properties such as name, text content or file extension, you can use new keywords such as �Document,� �Image� or �Movie� to indicate the kind of file you�re looking for. You can even indicate relative time periods using convenient keywords such as �Today,� �Yesterday� and �Last Week.� But these improvements are only the beginning.

Like Spotlight, you can add descriptive and explanatory terms to your search. For example, if you�re looking for text or Office documents, use Author, Creation Date or Project Name. For graphics, you could indicate the Image Size or Resolution to narrow your list. Simply pick the search criteria from the menu and the Finder tailors your results instantly. File and document contents are automatically indexed, so you can perform powerful full-text searches

from: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/search_finder.html

Could this mean that there is indeed a metadata Filesystem ? They maybe didn't mention it as a feature because the average consumer wouldn't understand what it means.

Oh and noticed the blue background behind the Apple and Spotlight menus ?

Turias · Jun 28, 2004, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by SMacTech:
Then go back to OS 9. There are many features in Panther, that some of us are still finding. Just because a feature is available in the OS does not mean it is always running!

So you support them rolling Safari into the OS? What about iChat? Come on, all I ask is they make Dashboard an application instead of an OS feature...

Mithras · Jun 28, 2004, 03:19 PM

dupe

Powaqqatsi · Jun 28, 2004, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
So you support them rolling Safari into the OS? What about iChat? Come on, all I ask is they make Dashboard an application instead of an OS feature...

Yeah, I hardly consider iChat being an important feature of the OS. It's 100% useless outside of the USA.

kman42 · Jun 28, 2004, 03:19 PM

Checking out the Tiger webpages is pretty awesome. I'm impressed by the search technology. It says it indexes in the background constantly, providing instant results AS YOU TYPE. It presents them in smart categories depending on how you do the search. Seems very cool.

Also, the dashboard is way cooler than I first envisioned. The widgets don't look as ugly as they seemed in that screenshot, especially when they are displayed in a transparent layer over the other windows. I've been waiting for this type of functionality and find it very well done. They made the widgets colorful and visually interesting to identify them as widgets rather than regular apps. It looks nice on the Tiger web pages. Also, they seem to have beaten Sun to the 3-D desktop idea by putting the controls on the back of the widget windows. They flip around so you can get access to the controls--cool.

3-D iChat looks amazing. Period.

kman

Mithras · Jun 28, 2004, 03:21 PM

My favorite new feature:

Safari: Now With Porn Mode

Go ahead and check your bank account and .Mac email at the library, shop for birthday presents or surf www.nastychicks.com on the family Mac. Using Safari’s new privacy feature, no information about where you visit on the Web, personal information you enter or pages you visit are saved or cached. It’s as if you were never there.

Fixed.

mishap · Jun 28, 2004, 03:23 PM

I knew this thread would turn into...

"meh...not that great"

and

"well if you dont like it go back to windows, DellBoy!!"

kcmac · Jun 28, 2004, 03:26 PM

The Tiger sneak preview is awesome. I am going to start working on IT to get a mac in our offices across the country so we can use iChat. We already have a few at HQ for marketing purposes.

I can barely wait for the Tiger release.

Automation feature has me drooling. I don't know how many times I have new pictures, need to scale down, email, etc. Now I can set this up quickly without having to understand Applescript and it will also keep on file for me so next time I can just select it. Outstanding!

SMacTech · Jun 28, 2004, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
So you support them rolling Safari into the OS? What about iChat? Come on, all I ask is they make Dashboard an application instead of an OS feature...

Did I say anything about Safari, or iChat? Actually, a lot of Safari's foundation is part of the OS. My point was that even though features are available in the OS, they don't impact the performance of it.
An example: System Preferences has the Universal Access pane, and it has some great functionality for the hearing and visually impaired, but if it is left off, one may never know it is even there, bloated as you say, into the OS.
I imagine Dashboard is the same way, much like Expos�, if you don't turn it on or you turn it off, it won't be in your way.

absmiths · Jun 28, 2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Mithras:
http://images.apple.com/macosx/tiger/images/safariprivate_20040628.jpg[/img] Safari: Now With Porn Mode

Fixed.

You shouldn't present that as a quote when it isn't. Apple does not use nastychicks anywhere on its' site.

The automation app looks most interesting to me so far.

Tom C · Jun 28, 2004, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Macpilot:
And the new searching? I don't see the great leap forward. I can do a very thorough search right now in the Finder or with command-F.

Spotlight is just the front-end. The real power is under the hood. Go here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/searchtechnology.html

It looks like they're supporting real, extensible metadata, like BeOS had. If you don't understand how useful this is, go here:

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=421&page=13

This is probably worth the upgrade alone.

As for the other features:

1. Let's hope that GraphicConverter will suport Video Units. Pros will still want PhotoShop, but it's one less reason for the rest of us non-power-image-users to buy PhotoShop Elements. If only GC did layers, too...

2. Right now, for easy access, my limited screen real estate is cluttered up with the iTunes main window, minimized, for controlling iTunes, and the system Calculator, minimized (Jaguar version - Panther version won't minimize). Even minimized, they're cluttering the place up. Plus, my Dock has @-time for referencing GMT and other time zones. If I can have all of these at the touch of button, that's three fewer things cluttering up my screen and Dock, but they're still easily accesible. It's not earth-shattering, but I can see where it will be handy.

Horsepoo!!! · Jun 28, 2004, 03:39 PM

Spotlight does look cooler now that I checked it out. But I wonder if it isn't just a hack job instead of using a new DB filesystem. But it certainly gives us the metadata solution we've been wanting.

Spotlight, H.264/AVC + iChat, and CoreImage/Video (and 64-bitness) are the huge highlights, IMO. Dashboard is just there to get kids and GUI freaks to switch.

ratlater · Jun 28, 2004, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Spotlight does look cooler now that I checked it out. But I wonder if it isn't just a hack job instead of using a new DB filesystem. But it certainly gives us the metadata solution we've been wanting.

Spotlight, H.264/AVC + iChat, and CoreImage/Video (and 64-bitness) are the huge highlights, IMO. Dashboard is just there to get kids and GUI freaks to switch.

It does use a DB filesystem: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/searchtechnology.html

It uses indexes and content indexes. That's a DB.

And dashboard looks great to me. I can kick the stickies, address book and iCal out of the dock on out of my way. When I want to jot a note or check an address I bring them forward, do my thing and woosh they are gone. This is exactly what I want.

-matt

kcmac · Jun 28, 2004, 03:57 PM

Does anyone know how the sync feature is much different than using iSync now?

It looks like it may add email (it says preferences though).

larkost · Jun 28, 2004, 04:07 PM

Tiger does not use a Database filesystem. Longhorn does not use a Database filesystem. No-one uses a Database filesystem, because it is a bad idea. If you want fast and small you use a filesystem, if you want complicated searches you want a DB. People got it wrong about the initial rumors about Longhorn, it is still based on NTFS.

What both Tiger and Longhorn use are separate databases (living on top of the filesystem) that allow you to search on the metatdata fed to them about files living in the filesystem.

While I have not seen a lot of the details about Longhorn, and have only seen cursory amounts of information about the Spotlight system, it definitely appears that Apple is making it very easy for developers to give Spotlight a means of reading the important metadata out of their file formats so that their files can be indexed into the separate database.

It is also interesting to see that Apple is adding SQLite as a part of the OS, and building their own framework around it. I would suspect there is some association there.

JKT · Jun 28, 2004, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by kcmac:
Does anyone know how the sync feature is much different than using iSync now?

It looks like it may add email (it says preferences though).

Quote from Apple's Tiger preview info:

"System-wide availability of sync services means that developers can now easily incorporate syncing capabilities into their applications. Tiger�s sync engine is extendable, so developers can go beyond synchronizing calendars, bookmarks and contact lists."

Sounds like a huge difference to me

And from a quick re-read, from what I can tell it seems that iSync as an app (and perhaps Backup too) is dead - the prefs for your synching options are going to be within the apps themselves (with what looks like a new System Pref pane to control them globally).

Edit: Ignore that last statement - iSync will probably survive as an interface to your mobile phone/PDA/iPod

ryju · Jun 28, 2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by absmiths:
You shouldn't present that as a quote when it isn't. Apple does not use nastychicks anywhere on its' site.

The automation app looks most interesting to me so far.

I'm pretty sure it was a joke...

The whole preview looks great to me, I wonder what kind of bandwidth iChat will use for those big video conferences. Looks amazing.

kcmac · Jun 28, 2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by JKT:
Quote from Apple's Tiger preview info:

"System-wide availability of sync services means that developers can now easily incorporate syncing capabilities into their applications. Tiger�s sync engine is extendable, so developers can go beyond synchronizing calendars, bookmarks and contact lists."

Sounds like a huge difference to me

And from a quick re-read, from what I can tell it seems that iSync as an app (and perhaps Backup too) is dead - the prefs for your synching options are going to be within the apps themselves (with what looks like a new System Pref pane to control them globally).

Edit: Ignore that last statement - iSync will probably survive as an interface to your mobile phone/PDA/iPod

Thanks. Guess I was just looking at what will happen with the iSync icon in the menubar. Maybe apps like Daylite could sync info in the future. It is much different.

wreising · Jun 28, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Yeah, I hardly consider iChat being an important feature of the OS. It's 100% useless outside of the USA.

That is simply not true. Just last March I used iChat AV daily from Germany to talk to my girlfriend.

Seemed pretty usedful to me then.

kcmac · Jun 28, 2004, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by ryju:
I'm pretty sure it was a joke...

The whole preview looks great to me, I wonder what kind of bandwidth iChat will use for those big video conferences. Looks amazing.

It will be interesting to see but it says that the person with the fastest connection will automatically be put in charge to speed things along (paraphrasing).

gautch · Jun 28, 2004, 04:35 PM

Does it look shinier to any one else?

Spliff · Jun 28, 2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Yeah, I hardly consider iChat being an important feature of the OS. It's 100% useless outside of the USA.

Right on, brother. iChat is useless to me and everyone else I know. No one uses the AIM network in Canada. Windows users won't touch AIM because it's bloody ugly compared to MSN Messenger. Until iChat has MSN support, hardly anyone outside of the US will use it. I actually know Macs users (teenagers and online daters) that have switched or soon will switch to a PC just so they can use the video and audio chat features of MSN Messenger. Granted, they don't use their computers for much more than chatting, browsing, and emailing.

absmiths · Jun 28, 2004, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by ratlater:
It does use a DB filesystem: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/searchtechnology.html

It uses indexes and content indexes. That's a DB.

If that is true then Max OS 9 used a DB filesystem too, since it had indexes of content on the HD . . .

ratlater · Jun 28, 2004, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by absmiths:
If that is true then Max OS 9 used a DB filesystem too, since it had indexes of content on the HD . . .

Everything modern should be a DB filesystem of some sort. Storing all the files in an SQL would be a nightmare...way too slow at this time, but storing file attributes in there is a good idea.

-matt