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Do you agree with this sentiment? (Page 6)
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subego
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Sep 28, 2015, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yeah. Mine was it takes more than accusations to change people's minds on abortion.
Somewhere in there, and I'm not sure who's fault this is, the accusation was framed as "PP broke the law". Since they didn't, I'm not surprised it didn't stick. If I can slightly modify your statement, an unfounded accusation isn't going to change minds, and I imagine we both agree that's as it should be.

What's curious to me is that AFAICT, the lead's been buried. What's damning about the videos is they show PP's policy stance, which is it's ethical to eliminate the chemical euthanasia beforehand so the fetal tissue is usable afterwards.

It's notable to me PP hasn't fielded a defense of this, nor has been pressured to. They've only been pressured on the issues they have pat defenses for. Is this illegal: no. Has this been edited: yes. Is Fiorina seemingly incapable of behaving like an adult: yes.
     
BadKosh
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Sep 29, 2015, 10:43 AM
 
Seems the unedited versions are the real deal, and according to some video experts they weren't edited, except for the short versions but not taken out of context.

Rep blasts Planned Parenthood taxpayer $$, as study says videos not doctored | Fox News
     
Chongo
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Sep 29, 2015, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post

Plus, this is a blatant emotional appeal. Just because I can't stomach looking at something doesn't mean it must necessarily be a bad thing.
What is it about those pictures or videos you can't stomach?
45/47
     
Chongo
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Sep 29, 2015, 12:21 PM
 
Here is the sequel to "The Silent Scream, "

"Eclipse of Reason" documents a third trimester abortion.
45/47
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Then why all the brouhaha for the "government to defund PP"?
Because politics and religion.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What's damning about the videos is they show PP's policy stance, which is it's ethical to eliminate the chemical euthanasia beforehand so the fetal tissue is usable afterwards.

It's notable to me PP hasn't fielded a defense of this, nor has been pressured to. They've only been pressured on the issues they have pat defenses for. Is this illegal: no. Has this been edited: yes. Is Fiorina seemingly incapable of behaving like an adult: yes.
Oh! Well the act of you needing to inform me creates your own answer: It a technical and nuanced detail that most people don't know about or understand.

Also, both sides have completely ignored it for far simpler and easier points.



Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What is it about those pictures or videos you can't stomach?
You make it sound like it's specific to abortion. You've never met someone who's squeamish before?
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2015, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Because politics and religion.
Well, as I said earlier, their block grants are in shell game territory.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2015, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh! Well the act of you needing to inform me creates your own answer: It a technical and nuanced detail that most people don't know about or understand.

Also, both sides have completely ignored it for far simpler and easier points.
It's how the press is handling it which bothers me. I hold them to a higher standard then I hold the combatants.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, as I said earlier, their block grants are in shell game territory.
And as I said it earlier, it's all a shell game, which makes the point meaningless.

Not to mention if government funding were determined by whether it or not people find it morally objectionable, there's a lot of programs we'd have to cut.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It's how the press is handling it which bothers me. I hold them to a higher standard then I hold the combatants.
I just don't see how you dumb this down enough for a mass audience. I mean, I read your description, but I don't actually grasp it. You have to elaborate on a bunch of laws or regulations or something else. Right now the media isn't even doing it that well with the Clinton email scandal.

That's just too much work for something that, as it stands, is not much more than an accusation. We might see more once the investigation concludes.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2015, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And as I said it earlier, it's all a shell game, which makes the point meaningless.
If I take this to its conclusion, someone who goes to PP for a Pap smear is paying for abortions, correct?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If I take this to its conclusion, someone who goes to PP for a Pap smear is paying for abortions, correct?
Conclusion? That's just the tip of the iceberg. If you think the government funding PP is the same as funding abortion, of course paying for those services that the government is subsidizing would be no different.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2015, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I just don't see how you dumb this down enough for a mass audience. I mean, I read your description, but I don't actually grasp it. You have to elaborate on a bunch of laws or regulations or something else. Right now the media isn't even doing it that well with the Clinton email scandal.

That's just too much work for something that, as it stands, is not much more than an accusation. We might see more once the investigation concludes.
No laws, strictly ethics.

The standard is to do a lethal injection first, so you're not aborting a live fetus. A lethal injection will make the tissue unusable.

PP argues to its clients they shouldn't have the lethal injection performed so that the fetal tissue can be used.

Where this gets dicey is if the fetus has developed to the point it has discrete organs. The video purports to show the PP techs calling out parts as they find them.
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2015, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Conclusion? That's just the tip of the iceberg. If you think the government funding PP is the same as funding abortion, of course paying for those services that the government is subsidizing would be no different.
I'm asking what you think.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm asking what you think.
...
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And as I said it earlier, it's all a shell game, which makes the point meaningless.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 03:53 PM
 
One of the Big Three gets cleared.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us...-missouri.html
In Missouri, the attorney general, Chris Koster, said members of the public and state lawmakers had asked his office to look into the allegations. But in a statement released on Monday, Mr. Koster said the investigation had found no evidence that a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Louis, the only one in the state licensed to perform surgical abortions, acted unlawfully.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Why do you think abortionist fight ultrasound requirements?
Am I an abortionist, Chongo? Or am I merely some sap who has fallen for Big Abortions capitalist agenda?

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Because when a woman sees that it's a baby and not a "clump of tissue," many opt not have an abortion, and the abortionist loses money.
More conspiracy nonsense. Abortion isn't about women's rights, it's about money! Except for when it's about racial suppression and eugenics.

The point is that it's pretty scummy to try put someone through emotional distress for trying to do something legal. I might also add, one ultrasound law has even been found illegal.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 29, 2015, 04:21 PM
 
According to [Michelle] Bachmann, a poll by Focus on the Family, a group opposed to abortion, found that when women who were undecided about whether to end a pregnancy were shown an ultrasound of the fetus, 78% did not have the abortion.
That's quite the bullet-proof source you have there.
     
Chongo
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Sep 29, 2015, 04:40 PM
 
Why do you think abortionist fight ultrasound requirements?
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Am I an abortionist, Chongo? Or am I merely some sap who has fallen for Big Abortions capitalist agenda?
Perhaps they make you squeamish.

Because when a woman sees that it's a baby and not a "clump of tissue," many opt not have an abortion, and the abortionist loses money.
More conspiracy nonsense. Abortion isn't about women's rights, it's about money! Except for when it's about racial suppression and eugenics.
Could be all three, racist eugenicists making cash while ridding the world of what Sanger called "human weeds"

The point is that it's pretty scummy to try put someone through emotional distress for trying to do something legal. I might also add, one ultrasound law has even been found illegal.
Why would it be emotionally distressing to view an ultrasound of a "clump of tissue? "
45/47
     
Chongo
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Sep 29, 2015, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
One of the Big Three gets cleared.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us...-missouri.html
Missouri did not have one of the clinics in question. They were in TX, CA, and CO
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Sep 29, 2015, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Because politics and religion.
More like politics and basic human decency.
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besson3c  (op)
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Sep 29, 2015, 09:35 PM
 
     
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Sep 29, 2015, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Because politics and religion.
Not just that.

Some people using politics to violate the religious rights of others.

But hey, violating the individual rights of a few 'crazy hill billie' individuals is a small and acceptable price to pay for the 'greater good' of cheap and easy abortions for anyone. Bye bye individualism.
     
Chongo
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Sep 29, 2015, 10:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Trent Horn of Catholic Answers responds.
Bill Nye the Unscientific Abortion Guy | Catholic Answers
45/47
     
subego
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Sep 29, 2015, 11:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
And as I said it earlier, it's all a shell game, which makes the point meaningless.
Which is equivalent to saying you think all monies PP receives, regardless of context, are paying for abortions, correct?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 30, 2015, 12:38 AM
 
Sure is a lot of pushback for what is supposedly a small number of procedures that are at issue. What's really at play here?

My distraction detector is buzzing.
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Sep 30, 2015, 05:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Trent Horn of Catholic Answers responds.
Bill Nye the Unscientific Abortion Guy | Catholic Answers
This guy is not half as clever as he thinks he is.

Firstly Bill isn't stating that he believes all fertilised ova are human beings with rights, he is taking that as a common anti-choice position (which it is) and using science to explain why it shouldn't be. Because many many fertilised ova never attach in the first place, quite naturally and no-one feels the need to cry or conduct funerals for them.

I would be remiss if I didn't address this chap bringing up historical infant mortality rates which have improved immensely thanks entirely to science and not God who we clearly should infer isn't that bothered about children dying before age 5 (or indeed before age 100 or more) when we look at the evidence.

As for why no one likes abortion, well that's because society is still in the process of overcoming the stigma that is being maintained by anti-choicers that anyone having an abortion is a murderer and might be labelled such by her family members, friends or colleagues.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 30, 2015, 05:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Not just that.

Some people using politics to violate the religious rights of others.

But hey, violating the individual rights of a few 'crazy hill billie' individuals is a small and acceptable price to pay for the 'greater good' of cheap and easy abortions for anyone. Bye bye individualism.
You don't pay taxes so that you can infringe on the rights of others. You pay taxes so the government can protect the rights and freedoms of everyone. This is why you often hear soldiers say "I don't like what you say but I'll die defending your right to say it."

How about a compromise, start taxing the churches and use that money to fund PP?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Sep 30, 2015, 07:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You don't pay taxes so that you can infringe on the rights of others. You pay taxes so the government can protect the rights and freedoms of everyone. This is why you often hear soldiers say "I don't like what you say but I'll die defending your right to say it."

How about a compromise, start taxing the churches and use that money to fund PP?
How about taxing reservation casinos and cigarette sale. There is more money there.
Those who want to fund Planned Parenthood can do so by writing them a check each week. Better still, thay can go to HR and have money dedcuted from their check. If their company has a United Way campaign, they can designate their donation go to PP. Freescale has a "giving campaign" and we can go to the HR webpage and designate where to send money. Go here and fimd your favoriye merchant and you can select PP. eScrip - make a difference for your school or nonprofit. I desiganted my Parish school.
45/47
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Why would it be emotionally distressing to view an ultrasound of a "clump of tissue? "
Anthropomorphization


Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Missouri did not have one of the clinics in question. They were in TX, CA, and CO
lawl. So what is actually is, is another witch hunt come up empty.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Some people using politics to violate the religious rights of others.
How are their rights being violated?

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
But hey, violating the individual rights of a few 'crazy hill billie' individuals is a small and acceptable price to pay for the 'greater good' of cheap and easy abortions for anyone. Bye bye individualism.
For the second time, abortions are not being funded by government money.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Which is equivalent to saying you think all monies PP receives, regardless of context, are paying for abortions, correct?
No, the opposite.

Edit: The clarify, what I'm saying is if you look at it in terms of indirectly funding abortion, the rabbit hole is endless and a rational consumer researching where their money goes would become paralyzed because it all filters down into companies or people who engage in objectionable practices.
     
Chongo
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Sep 30, 2015, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Anthropomorphization
That only applies if you apply human form or attributes to something that is not human. The preborn child is human.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That only applies if you apply human form or attributes to something that is not human. The preborn child is human.
You're arguing semantics to avoid my point.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 12:35 PM
 
Two questions, Chongo:

Why does the state have a right to force women to undergo ultrasounds?

Do you believe making access to Planned Parenthood's non-abprtive services harder to get will improve or worsen the abortion rate?
     
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Sep 30, 2015, 02:50 PM
 
At early stages, a pregnancy can only be detected by internal ultrasound. Forcing internal ultrasounds on women is rape. Making it a stipulation of a legal procedure just boggles the mind.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Making it a stipulation of a legal procedure just boggles the mind.
Not if you're trying to make getting an abortion the most unpalatable experience possible.
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2015, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
No, the opposite.

Edit: The clarify, what I'm saying is if you look at it in terms of indirectly funding abortion, the rabbit hole is endless and a rational consumer researching where their money goes would become paralyzed because it all filters down into companies or people who engage in objectionable practices.
Thank you for the clarification.

Let me present an analogy (which I'll admit, only covers the block grants, so it's half an analogy).

We have a lottery in Illinois. It's justified by the claim all profits fund education.

Here's how it works.

The lottery makes $X. That money is put into the school budget. Then, $X is taken out of the school budget and is put into the state's general fund.

This trips my jive detectors, and it appears to me this is exactly what PP is doing.

Is it okay for me to be pissed at the state for this? If I'm pissed off at the state, shouldn't I be pissed off at PP, too?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
\Then, $X is taken out of the school budget and is put into the state's general fund.
I'm not sure I grasp this properly, so you might want to throw in an example with hypothetical numbers. Based on my understanding though, as long as the school budget exceeds lottery income, its technically fine.
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2015, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not sure I grasp this properly, so you might want to throw in an example with hypothetical numbers. Based on my understanding though, as long as the school budget exceeds lottery income, its technically fine.
Example school budget, $1,000.
Example lottery profit, $100.

$100 is transferred into school budget, school budget becomes $1,100.

$100 is transferred out of school budget into general state budget. Final school budget $1,000.

To me, this is pulling a fast one. Maybe it's technically okay, but is utterly violating the spirit of the claim the lottery funds are being spent on education.
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2015, 03:58 PM
 
At the least, allow me to offer the preceding as evidence I'm not trying to bust PP's balls ovaries because it's PP.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 30, 2015, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Example school budget, $1,000.
Example lottery profit, $100.

$100 is transferred into school budget, school budget becomes $1,100.

$100 is transferred out of school budget into general state budget. Final school budget $1,000.

To me, this is pulling a fast one. Maybe it's technically okay, but is utterly violating the spirit of the claim the lottery funds are being spent on education.
I imagine all this is done before a final budget is approved. If this is done after the fund are allocated, I'd think that's illegal.

I agree its violating the spirit of the claim, but the problem I see is they're using the lottery to shirk their budgetary responsibilities to education.

Semi-related side question: Does PP operate the abortion arm at a loss? Because that's the only way I see an opening for criticism.
     
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Sep 30, 2015, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Two questions, Chongo:

Why does the state have a right to force women to undergo ultrasounds?

Do you believe making access to Planned Parenthood's non-abprtive services harder to get will improve or worsen the abortion rate?
The state has the right to regulate medical pocedures.

Who said anything about reducing access to non abortion services? PP is the one who claims abortion is "only 3% of what we do" I suggested they could focus on providing the "97% of the vital services they provide to to women" and leave the abortions to hosptals.


Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
At early stages, a pregnancy can only be detected by internal ultrasound. Forcing internal ultrasounds on women is rape. Making it a stipulation of a legal procedure just boggles the mind.
Then what are these for?
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subego
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Sep 30, 2015, 04:48 PM
 
I think she's saying ultrasound detection needs to be internal.

If you require an ultrasound for an abortion at, say, 10 weeks, the ultrasound needs to be internal.
     
subego
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Sep 30, 2015, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I imagine all this is done before a final budget is approved. If this is done after the fund are allocated, I'd think that's illegal.

I agree its violating the spirit of the claim, but the problem I see is they're using the lottery to shirk their budgetary responsibilities to education.

Semi-related side question: Does PP operate the abortion arm at a loss? Because that's the only way I see an opening for criticism.
My back of the napkin calculations are it's a wash. Abortion income looks to cover about a quarter of their operating expenses.

The rub with the block grants isn't limited to them being an abortion provider. Overall, PP operates at a significant profit, or in NPO terms, operates with excess income.

How significant? It's more excess income than what they get in block grants.
     
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Sep 30, 2015, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think she's saying ultrasound detection needs to be internal.

If you require an ultrasound for an abortion at, say, 10 weeks, the ultrasound needs to be internal.
Correct, since the point of the punitive ultrasound is to get a picture of your little blob of joy/anguish, and as far as I know, peeing on a stick technology has not advanced to the point of delivering quality images.
     
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Sep 30, 2015, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How significant? It's more excess income than what they get in block grants.
If that's the case then they don't need the grants, there are other programs that would benefit more from them.
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Sep 30, 2015, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
If that's the case then they don't need the grants, there are other programs that would benefit more from them.
It looks like I'm a touch off, but not by much.

The figure from their last annual report was they get $529MM from the government.

My understanding is 25% of this is from Title X, so $133MM.

Their excess income listed in the report is $127MM. They currently have $600MM in unrestricted net assets.
     
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Oct 1, 2015, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think she's saying ultrasound detection needs to be internal.

If you require an ultrasound for an abortion at, say, 10 weeks, the ultrasound needs to be internal.
They already know they are pregnant when they go in for an abortion, yes? Using andi"s definition, the patient is raped with the ultrasound wand in order to perform your decribed 10 week abortion.
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Chongo
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Oct 1, 2015, 07:37 AM
 
An interesting infographic from Secular Pro-Life
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