[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Okay, Tesselator, but did you look at the posts from vmarks on Paul? They definitely changed my outlook on him.

No I haven't. Link me up bro. If there's something I'm missing I'd love to see it.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

vmarks, your responses have been gorgeous. I'm ****ing tired of all those slight of hand attempts at anti-Semitism via criticism of economics and global affairs. Your responses have been tight. If you were a woman I would be all over you.

McCain is a hero. I'm not American but that is my opinion.

He's a CFR globalist and wants the US to occupy Iraq for 100 years. Seriously. He said
so directly - I listened to it.

There is zero difference between him and Hitlery. One wares a man suit and the other
has a bra and that's the ONLY difference. Obama too. If I sell you poison in a candy
bar or if I sell you poison in an apple I'm still selling you poison.

YouTube - The Bush Clinton Bush Clinton Administration #1
YouTube - The New World Order is Here! #2

Either one will destroy America. Unless you are a fascist (and that's your choice if you
are - your opinion is still heard here) and are for the One World Government there is no
way you could consider Obama, McCain, Hillary, or Romney as electable. By the current
laws of our nation it is illegal to hold office and be the member of the UN, CFR, or any
like organization. The actions of daddy Bush, B.J. Clinton, baby Bush and Hillary (as a
congressman) are without question high treason and prosecutable. That the American
people and the people in this thread don't see that or don't consider it important is
to me disgusting. Either because they have diluted themselves with the main-stream
media controlled by these same forces or that they understand the directions being
imposed on the people and embrace them.

As far as I can see there in only one candidate that stands outside this plan and outside
this treasonous corruption - and that's Ron Paul. Every other candidate in the two main
parties D & R, are certifiably in league with the CFR and it's agenda of global government.

[Chongo]

American Dicators: Documenting the Staged Election of 2004 (Alex Jones) Soon to be 2008

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

If you're trying to call Hitchens an anti-Semite you would be dead wrong. He's a very vocal supporter of Israel's defense against terrorism. He doesn't believe in Jehovah and he would like Kissinger taken to an international court, but that doesn't make someone an anti-Semite. If you want to call someone a closet anti-Semite you should point the finger as Hitchen's most famous puglistic opponent George Galloway who had said to Saddam and Assad of Syria "I am with you until Jerusalem". Hitchens famously cited and slated Galloway for doing so.

I have heard he's a supporter of Israel but haven't read much on his views. To me it seems entirely contradictory. I don't see how one can so passionately hate Judaism yet support the Jewish state at the same time.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

No I haven't. Link me up bro. If there's something I'm missing I'd love to see it.

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...3/#post3591365

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I think this is what you meant to write. I can understand why you'd prefer Republicans who are actually the same as you, but to paint all the others as "blood-spitting lunatics" seems a bit overly dogmatic to me.

Actually, no. He's far from being a liberal, and I disagree with him on almost all elements of substance. The main plus is that his is not obviously insane. I mean that in all seriousness.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I've been trying to be magnanimous with you lately, but you just keep taking cheap shots even when we're not in a personal skirmish.

Sorry - it was not a shot at you, your list just didn't look particularly thought through. There were so many mistakes that a moment's thought would have shown.

[besson3c]

One thing that seems clear to me is that the pendulum has swung back to the middle. All of the diehard far right Republicans in here can froth at the mouth as much as they want, but the bottom line is that Hillary and McCain are pretty moderate, and this obviously appeals to a large number of voters.

I also find Obama fairly moderate. It will be interesting to see whether he pulls ahead. After winning all of those states yesterday, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the remaining unpledged 500 superdelegates see his overwhelming appeal in red states a means for winning the general election. It's not like Hillary's supporters hate Obama's guts, so supporting him probably wouldn't splinter the Democratic base.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess...

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I have heard he's a supporter of Israel but haven't read much on his views. To me it seems entirely contradictory. I don't see how one can so passionately hate Judaism yet support the Jewish state at the same time.

Because finding religious beliefs or customs primitive is not the same as saying a religion, nation or culture should not exist.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

One thing that seems clear to me is that the pendulum has swung back to the middle. All of the diehard far right Republicans in here can froth at the mouth as much as they want, but the bottom line is that Hillary and McCain are pretty moderate, and this obviously appeals to a large number of voters.

I guess the only bright side of the last 7 years is that it may mean that neocons are no longer a serious force. I would vote for a republican who was for individual liberties and rights, a cautious foreign policy and fiscal responsibility, and not in hock to corporate interests, but there aren't any any more.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

He's a CFR globalist and wants the US to occupy Iraq for 100 years.

Everyone who isn't a xenophobe is a globalist. And as for Iraq, their government wants the US to stay as long as feasible and if you've seen the number of Iraqis who have put up photos and videos of themselves with Marines in the last year or since the surge, you will note how good the relationship is getting. We even have Marines posting videos on youtube of themselves singing Iraqi pop songs in Arabic.

The pessimists and sycophantic pacifists are eating all their words now. They are furious things are getting better in Iraq. It's as if they can't stand the idea of America being successful or of Iraqis having a chance of real civil life for the first time in 5000 years.

[Chongo]

Hilary moderate?

From the subject of her honors thesis

In his Rules for Radicals, Alinsky outlines his strategy in organizing, writing,

"There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families - more than seventy million people - whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year [in 1971]. They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don't encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let's not let it happen by default.."

A wolf (marxist)in sheep's (moderate) clothing
Students of Saul Alinsky

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Hilary moderate?

From the subject of her honors thesis

Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A wolf (marxist)in sheep's (moderate) clothing

Calling her a Marxist shows staggering ignorance.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Okay, Tesselator, but did you look at the posts from vmarks on Paul? They definitely changed my outlook on him.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...3/#post3591365

That??? Hehehe... You can't be serious!

If you see a tank about to run you over and drive through your house and crush
your children do you ignore the man offering you the exit route because someone
that worked for him once years ago said the "N" - word or spoke poorly of colored
people?

If you read Dr. Paul's writings as a congressman they don't match up AT ALL with those
some of the things they claim those news letters mean. I recommend you read Ron
Paul’s book “A Foreign Policy of Freedom”. Or maybe something he puts his name
on:

http://www.mises.org/books/goldpeace.pdf
http://www.mises.org/books/caseforgold.pdf
http://www.mises.org/books/paulmises.pdf (a favorite of mine.)
http://www.dailypaul.com/freedom-und...e-complete.pdf (Another favorite!)
A Republic, If You Can Keep It

You will not only find a completely different writing style but those topics that he is
actually interested in.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Calling her a Marxist shows staggering ignorance.

I think you challenging his remark as being untrue shows your own.

[peeb]

So let me get this straight, you are defending the statement that Hillary is a Marxist? I almost fell off my chair at your stupidity.

[Big Mac]

I'd like to believe you concerning Paul, Tesselator. But vmarks is a brother of mine, and he makes a very compelling case against Paul. I thought all I differed with Paul on was foreign policy until I read vmarks' post.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Everyone who isn't a xenophobe is a globalist. And as for Iraq, their government wants the US to stay as long as feasible and if you've seen the number of Iraqis who have put up photos and videos of themselves with Marines in the last year or since the surge, you will note how good the relationship is getting. We even have Marines posting videos on youtube of themselves singing Iraqi pop songs in Arabic.

The pessimists and sycophantic pacifists are eating all their words now. They are furious things are getting better in Iraq. It's as if they can't stand the idea of America being successful or of Iraqis having a chance of real civil life for the first time in 5000 years.

No, hell no. That would be just great if we invaded a country illegally for no provable
reasons killed nearly a million people, spayed thousands of tons of depleted uranium
over all their cities as to damn their children to suffering and death and then convinced
a few of them to sing songs with us and post a few vids. That would make it all worth
it! So, I'm with ya bro!

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

That would be just great if we invaded a country illegally for no provable reasons killed nearly a million people, spayed thousands of tons of depleted uranium over all their cities as to damn their children to suffering and death

If you really believe what you just wrote then the New York Times really does have you by the balls. But hey, trust the media and some tree huggers to give you a real picture of the world.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'd like to believe you concerning Paul, Tesselator. But vmarks is a brother of mine, and he makes a very compelling case against Paul. I thought all I differed with Paul on was foreign policy until I read vmarks' post.

They are not his. He's said so in every case. People trying to smear him have gotten him
to admit that he has written "some" articles for the newsletter. It's like if I write a cover
story and send it out to 20 local chapters of the party and then they each write 8 more
articles and put it together as an issue for that chapter (location). I've listened to him
address this live on a 2 hour radio show and I have no reason to disbelieve him. I
certainly put more faith in him with his 20-year voting record and consistent never
wavering policies over "some one's buddy" on a mac site.

[PaperNotes]

Ron Paul's record just makes him look consistently xenophobic and scared of anything not WASP.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by peeb 

So let me get this straight, you are defending the statement that Hillary is a Marxist? I almost fell off my chair at your stupidity.

I think it's your own stupidity that you should be laughing at. Don't you pay attention to
anything she's done, voted on, or has proposed?

Damn, just type in "Hillary Clinton Marxist" and read from people who ARE actually paying
attention - to something other than the Fox line of BS.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Calling her a Marxist shows staggering ignorance.

More like turning a blind eye to her true agenda
She has made speeches where she has advocated confiscating company profits, raising taxes, etc


Marxism

* an attention to the material conditions of people's lives, and social relations among people
* a belief that people's consciousness of the conditions of their lives reflects these material conditions and relations
* an understanding of class in terms of differing relations of production, and as a particular position within such relations
* an understanding of material conditions and social relations as historically malleable
* a view of history according to which class struggle, the evolving conflict between classes with opposing interests, structures each historical period and drives historical change
* a sympathy for the working class or proletariat
* and a belief that the ultimate interests of workers best match those of humanity in general.

Sounds like both Clinton and Obama to me

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Ron Paul's record just makes him look consistently xenophobic and scared of anything not WASP.

You're entitled to your opinion I guess. That's a VERY bizarre interpretation though!

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

More like turning a blind eye to her true agenda
She has made speeches where she has advocated confiscating company profits, raising taxes, etc


Marxism


Sounds like both Clinton and Obama to me

Yup!

Hillary Clinton's Global Agenda

[Big Mac]

Paul's name was on those newsletters, and he seems to take responsibility for all that content. I don't see how he can avoid responsibility, unless he wishes to claim he was asleep at the switch while others wrote in his name fraudulently. It doesn't pass the smell test.

[smacintush]

Why are we even discussing Ron Paul? Whether you like him or not he is un-nominate-able and un-electable.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

More like turning a blind eye to her true agenda
She has made speeches where she has advocated confiscating company profits, raising taxes, etc


Marxism


Sounds like both Clinton and Obama to me

You are staggeringly moronic.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

If you really believe what you just wrote then the New York Times really does have you by the balls. But hey, trust the media and some tree huggers to give you a real picture of the world.

Take your pick: depleted uranium Rokke - Google Video
I recommend this one: HOW THE U.S. MILITARY IRRADIATES ITS OWN TROOPS (and everybody else) WITH DEPLETED URANIUM MUNITIONS

Here's another:
v911moret1.avi

I have to admit I dunno what the NYT's position is on it tho. I do think we killed allot of
folks over there illegally for sure! I guess that's not bad though because a few nut-jobs
claim they can eat DU... Is that you're case?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

You are staggeringly moronic.

Nice.

Why don't you try actually backing up your arguments instead of being rude?

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Why are we even discussing Ron Paul? Whether you like him or not he is un-nominate-able and un-electable.

That remains to be seen now doesn't it!

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by peeb 

You are staggeringly moronic.

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Nice.

Why don't you try actually backing up your arguments instead of being rude?

Yeah, I've had enough of reading his insults in every PL thread I happen to click on.

peeb, if you get an infraction, you can thank me.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Nice.

Why don't you try actually backing up your arguments instead of being rude?

He can't. There's just too much real evidence against him. In cases like that those who
have based they're entirety on falsehoods and media lies either drop out or call names.

I've seen it too many times. It's not his fault tho. It's what ALL of us in that situation
do. It's totally human.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

That remains to be seen now doesn't it!

No.

Not really.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

peeb, if you get an infraction, you can thank me.

Sorry, I beat you to it!

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

He can't. There's just too much real evidence against him. In cases like that those who
have based they're entirety on falsehoods and media lies either drop out or call names.

I've seen it too many times. It's not his fault tho. It's what ALL of us in that situation
do. It's totally human.

It's his fault that he behaves childishly.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Nice.
Why don't you try actually backing up your arguments instead of being rude?

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Yeah, I've had enough of reading his insults in every PL thread I happen to click on.
peeb, if you get an infraction, you can thank me.

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

He can't. There's just too much real evidence against him. In cases like that those who have based they're entirety on falsehoods and media lies either drop out or call names.
I've seen it too many times. It's not his fault tho. It's what ALL of us in that situation do. It's totally human.

Look, all three of you - if someone posts obvious nonsense, like trying to claim that Hillary is a Marxist, they are going to get called on it. I'm sorry if people can't deal with being told when their fictions crash into the real world, but that's not my problem. The idea that I somehow am responsible for demonstrating that she is not a Marxist, or that climate change is not a conspiracy whipped up by greenpeace, or that the Moon landing was not faked in a NASA basement or whatever it is this time is utter ass. Honestly - take a look at yourselves. I don't entirely know what you're trying to demonstrate by this ridiculous assertion, but all that it shows is that you are staggeringly ill-educated.

[Chongo]

some people choose to ignore her neocom agenda
It happens to those with feculent minds

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Honestly - take a look at yourselves. I don't entirely know what you're trying to demonstrate by this ridiculous assertion, but all that it shows is that you are staggeringly ill-educated.

Funny, I didn't mention Hilary at all. I said you were rude, and you attack my intelligence. That's what we're getting at, tough guy.

By the way, theoretically speaking, being right about something doesn't entitle you to be an asshole.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

It happens to those with feculant minds

When you try to insult people, try to spell properly.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Funny, I didn't mention Hilary at all. I said you were rude, and you attack my intelligence. That's what we're getting at, tough guy.

By the way, theoretically speaking, being right about something doesn't entitle you to be an asshole.

Apologies for lumping your complaint about style in with others' complaints about substance. The endless torrent of stupidity from some quarters makes it hard to differentiate signal from noise here sometimes. Relentless ridiculous posts with no basis in fact will eventually be met with rudeness.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by peeb 

When you try to insult people, try to spell properly.

must be 'cause I'm roman

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Relentless ridiculous posts with no basis in fact

Wait…you talking about YOUR posts now?

will eventually be met with rudeness.

Please…grow up.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Wait…you talking about YOUR posts now?

Look, you just need to let this one go - you're making yourself look more and more stupid by pursuing this. Admit you're wrong, and move on. No one in their right mind would defend the idea that Hillary is a Marxist.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Look, you just need to let this one go...

Well, ok, I can forgive your ignorance if you can educate yourself and learn that Hillary is indeed a
marxist.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Look, you just need to let this one go - you're making yourself look more and more stupid by pursuing this. Admit you're wrong, and move on. No one in their right mind would defend the idea that Hillary is a Marxist.

Well, I haven't stated my opinion on that now have I?

Let's take a look at your intelligent and insightful responses to that assertion shall we?

Originally Posted by peeb 

Calling her a Marxist shows staggering ignorance.

Originally Posted by peeb 

So let me get this straight, you are defending the statement that Hillary is a Marxist? I almost fell off my chair at your stupidity.

Originally Posted by peeb 

You are staggeringly moronic.

Wow! I was wrong! You really defended your side so eloquently!

You have my sincerest apologies.

Is that sarcasm I smell?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

Well, ok, I can forgive your ignorance if you can educate yourself and learn that Hillary is indeed a marxist.

Well, given that there is absolutely no serious contention on this issue, and no serious political commentator would say such a ridiculous thing, I think that's unlikely. Also, the basic premise of an argument is that if you make a claim, especially a completely fatuous one like yours, you need to demonstrate that it's true. You're playing Russell's Teapot.

[Chongo]

To paraphrase Owlgore "the debate on Hilary's Marxist beliefs is over".

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Well, given that there is absolutely no serious contention on this issue, and no serious political commentator would say such a ridiculous thing, I think that's unlikely. Also, the basic premise of an argument is that if you make a claim, especially a completely fatuous one like yours, you need to demonstrate that it's true. You're playing Russell's Teapot.

I think you have it backwards there bub. I gave you links and backed it up. And I can
supply hundreds more. You're saying she isn't just cuz you said so and you haven't heard
anyone say that she is. Rather lame of you to project your own actions onto me.

But let me ask you, Have you read the Manifesto? Have you studied anything at all
about Marxism and how it works in practice? I would venture to guess that you haven''t
or you would immediately recognize too many similarities to be comfortable and certainly
you would never try and compose a sentence that claimed otherwise of Hillary.

Here's some reading for you: Manifesto of the Communist Party
Or if you are too lazy to read as seems to be the case: MP3s The Communist Manifesto
Here's another nice resource page for you. Marxism Page
I've read ALL of this material myself - but then I'm kinda weird like that.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

Take your pick: depleted uranium Rokke - Google Video
I recommend this one: HOW THE U.S. MILITARY IRRADIATES ITS OWN TROOPS (and everybody else) WITH DEPLETED URANIUM MUNITIONS

Here's another:
v911moret1.avi

I have to admit I dunno what the NYT's position is on it tho. I do think we killed allot of
folks over there illegally for sure! I guess that's not bad though because a few nut-jobs
claim they can eat DU... Is that you're case?

Ya, just look at all those soldiers with their irradiated body parts falling off them...not.

And as for illegal, grow the **** up. The only reason it didn't go through the UN was because Saddam had bought the French and Russian vote by offering big contracts to their companies and on top of that the UN was bought off with the Food for Oil scams. Hell, post-invasion the UN agreed that Saddam did have chemical labs and a program for WMD but that al-Hatteen (Saddam's response force) dismantled and moved everything before coalition troops could find anything. This is in the UN's own report that legitimised the invasion and that the media found so vexxing that they and back stabbing politicians have had to fill society with the lie that Saddam was just a nice little boy and everything was OK in Iraq.

You know what Iraq has now? It has terrorists on the run. It has a civil Iraqi police force that is learning more and more western standards of policing. It has seen sectarian strife and is being taught that sectarianism is wrong. It has seen Syria and Iran sending arms and bombs for criminals to use and Iraqis have learned that a secular democratic country like the US or UK has more respect for them than their Muslim neighbours. Iraq's oil profits are distributed across the nation instead of being owned by a family or some religious clerics. It's the only country in the middle east with a proper profit distribution program. The US created the program to send a warning to the Saudis so that they will use their money to improve their country instead of buying massive stretch limos in rainbow colors every week.

What more? The Iraqis are creating their own people's militias against terrorism. That makes them one of the only countries in the Arab world to have the courage to take on and punish terrorist networks. Iraqi children play with and have photos taken with Marines daily. They don't have their photos taken with anti-Western bazooka toting riff raff. Marines improve their relationship with Iraqis every single day. It has gotten to the point where Marines are posting videos of themselves on YouTube singing Iraqi songs and dancing Iraqi dances.

There's a lot more good news. But you know what, let's just ignore it all just because you don't like some guy called George Bush. Let's damn the Iraqis with massive amounts of pessimism and let's pull out the soldiers who provide Iraqis with security just so we can please those ****ing tree huggers in New York or those cocaine addicts in Hollywood. Who cares if the brown man suffers as long as Democrats like Hilary Clinton can scoff and pomp themselves around.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

I think you have it backwards there bub. I gave you links and backed it up. And I can supply hundreds more. You're saying she isn't just cuz you said so and you haven't heard
anyone say that she is. Rather lame of you to project your own actions onto me.

No, you gave me a link to Wikipedia's article on Marxism. I am perfectly aware of what Marxism is, you have just singularly failed to show that Hillary is a Marxist. Where has she ever said this? Where has any serious political commentator ever said this? What has she done to make you think that she subscribes to Marxism?
Of course, you can't answer this, which is why your response is to post the communist manifesto and call me lazy. I have, in fact, read it, and I can assure you that in the real world, anyone who knew anything about the subject would not make the kind of lunatic assertions you are.
Again, stop slinging abuse, and make your case.