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goMac · May 9, 2006, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

The $499 model has Bluetooth.

Ah, somewhere I read it didn't, but the official press release says it does. Must just include a wired controller.

MindFad · May 9, 2006, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

http://sonychecksout.ytmnd.com/

Made me laugh.

Hahaha.

But seriously, why the different models? Could you imagine three or four different versions of the NES or SNES back in the day? Home console gaming sure has taken a turn from the old days.

Sandkat · May 9, 2006, 01:24 AM

Premium XBox 360 = $399
Wireless Adapter = $99
HD-DVD Addon = $99?
-----------------------
Hmm what does the price come out to? I'm not good at math

goMac · May 9, 2006, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Sandkat

Premium XBox 360 = $399
Wireless Adapter = $99
HD-DVD Addon = $99?
-----------------------
Hmm what does the price come out to? I'm not good at math

The point is the 360 gives users the option. Myself, I don't need WiFi, but HD-DVD would be nice. If I want Bluray on the PS3 I'm forced to pay $600 for an HDMI compatible box in order to take full advantage of Bluray. I can't simply buy a $499 PS3 and upgrade it to HDMI.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

The point is the 360 gives users the option. Myself, I don't need WiFi, but HD-DVD would be nice. If I want Bluray on the PS3 I'm forced to pay $600 for an HDMI compatible box in order to take full advantage of Bluray. I can't simply buy a $499 PS3 and upgrade it to HDMI.

I thought DVD's will play just fine on the non HDMI model?

Sandkat · May 9, 2006, 01:40 AM

As of now, I'm not aware of any HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray movies that will require a HDMI connection for the full res movie. You can still watch your Blu-Ray movies with component in the $499 model.

goMac · May 9, 2006, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I thought DVD's will play just fine on the non HDMI model?

They will, but HDMI is required for your TV to be "trusted" by Bluray's DRM. If you do not have an HDMI tv, the video will be downscaled to non-HD resolutions depending on the publishers preferences.

So far, due to capturing on computers, the publishers will most likely be downscaling.

goMac · May 9, 2006, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sandkat

As of now, I'm not aware of any HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray movies that will require a HDMI connection for the full res movie. You can still watch your Blu-Ray movies with component in the $499 model.

This is because there are no consumer Bluray players for computers. This will take a 180 degree turn once Bluray players come to computers. Same is true for HD-DVD.

Sandkat · May 9, 2006, 01:50 AM

Well if you don't have an HDTV and don't plan on buying one anytime soon, then you don't really need an HDMI connection and you won't notice the slightly lower quality will you? (sorry for the run-on)

goMac · May 9, 2006, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Sandkat

Well if you don't have an HDTV and don't plan on buying one anytime soon, then you don't really need an HDMI connection and you won't notice the slightly lower quality will you? (sorry for the run-on)

No, but at that point it becomes ridiculous to call the $500 PS3 a player for high definition movies when the industry is just waiting with a giant virtual switch to switch that off.

Sandkat · May 9, 2006, 02:03 AM

Again, if you don't have HDMI then chances are your TV can't display the full high def picture anyways. If you do own an HDTV with HDMI then I don't think an extra $100 will break the bank.

I'm sure the $500 PS3 will appeal to some people. Probabaly alot more people than the $300 "Retard Pack" XBox 360 did. I will be springing for the $600 model myself. I will want the HDMI when I eventually do buy a decent HDTV.

goMac · May 9, 2006, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sandkat

Again, if you don't have HDMI then chances are your TV can't display the full high def picture anyways. If you do own an HDTV with HDMI then I don't think an extra $100 will break the bank.

I'm sure the $500 PS3 will appeal to some people. Probabaly alot more people than the $300 "Retard Pack" XBox 360 did. I will be springing for the $600 model myself. I will want the HDMI when I eventually do buy a decent HDTV.

Right. So the $499 PS3 isn't really a high definition player. Which is what I said to begin with. Without HDMI, I don't think you can compare it to a currently $499 (most likely $399 at launch) HD-DVD player.

Edit: This wouldn't be so bad if when you bought a PS3, and eventually bought an HD-TV, you could just buy an upgrade to give you HDMI. But you can't. The Sony solution is to buy a whole new PS3.

Sandkat · May 9, 2006, 02:22 AM

Wait, a STANDALONE HD-DVD player is $499 with HDMI. Or for an extra $100 you can get a Blu-Ray player with HDMI, wireless, memory stick input, and plays PS1, PS2, PS3 games? Hmm, even if the standalone HD-DVD player dropped to $399, that PS3 is still a pretty damn good deal if you ask me.

But in the end it's all speculation. You don't know when or even if they will require HDMI for HD movies. All we know is they don't now, but it's possible. We don't even know how much the 360 HD-DVD addon will cost. I personally do not like addons. Yay for another thing to stack. Yay for ANOTHER thing to plug into an outlet behind my entertainment center.

AssassyN · May 9, 2006, 02:31 AM

^ Your argument works until you realize that within 8-12 months, companies will have "universal" players out that play HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs for probably $500 or less.

By the time the PS3 hits the market, the argument of "well, a Blu-Ray player costs $500!" won't work.

goMac · May 9, 2006, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Sandkat

Wait, a STANDALONE HD-DVD player is $499 with HDMI. Or for an extra $100 you can get a Blu-Ray player with HDMI, wireless, memory stick input, and plays PS1, PS2, PS3 games? Hmm, even if the standalone HD-DVD player dropped to $399, that PS3 is still a pretty damn good deal if you ask me.

But in the end it's all speculation. You don't know when or even if they will require HDMI for HD movies. All we know is they don't now, but it's possible. We don't even know how much the 360 HD-DVD addon will cost. I personally do not like addons. Yay for another thing to stack. Yay for ANOTHER thing to plug into an outlet behind my entertainment center.

By the time the PS3 arrives, it'll be $399 for a HD-DVD player, not to mention the obviously coming XBox 360 price cut.

You're assuming that Joe Consumer will pay $200 more for a PS3, when, if he's looking at high definition players and not consoles to begin with, probably don't care to spend $200 more for a PS3.

Also anyone who has a XBox 360 already can get high definition movies for $99 rather than having to dish out $599 for a PS3. That knocks another chunk out of Sony's market.

meelk · May 9, 2006, 03:24 AM

Today was such a damn GREAT day. Seeing sony flop like a fish just made my entire week.

willed · May 9, 2006, 04:43 AM

Err... isn't everyone forgetting that the PS3 isn't just a glorified DVD player? Apparently it plays computer games as well...
What a bunch of whiners.

ajprice · May 9, 2006, 04:59 AM

Hahaha, the controller, hehee. Its not a boomerang anymore, its basically a wireless DualShock2, without the vibration, and with, motion sensors!!!!

But they swear they didn't steal it from Nintendo, oh no, they got it from MS and Logitech motion sensing controllers, from 1999 !!!!

So now they have a 10 year old controller design with 7 year old technology in it. And they do this to try and look good. I've been waiting for the PS3 and wanting it to be good, all I can see now is the Fonz on waterskis...

Oh and by the way, the $499 model, a Blu Ray High Definition machine, without a HDMI port. Sony, how does that work???

willed · May 9, 2006, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

Hahaha, the controller, hehee. Its not a boomerang anymore, its basically a wireless DualShock2, without the vibration, and with, motion sensors!!!!

But they swear they didn't steal it from Nintendo, oh no, they got it from MS and Logitech motion sensing controllers, from 1999 !!!!

So now they have a 10 year old controller design with 7 year old technology in it. And they do this to try and look good. I've been waiting for the PS3 and wanting it to be good, all I can see now is the Fonz on waterskis...

Oh and by the way, the $499 model, a Blu Ray High Definition machine, without a HDMI port. Sony, how does that work???

As for the controller - granted if it's got no vibrator built in then that's a step back. But basically, why change the controller? If it's not broke, don't fix it. There was even less innovation in the XBox 360s controller, but I didn't see anyone crying about that.

As for the lack of HDMI on the lower model - over the lifespan of the console, do you think that most of the people that buy the low spec one will even know what HDMI is?? Look at the demographic that buys the PS2 now - mainly teenage chavs and their parents. The finer details of the tech specs mean nothing to these people, and let's face it, it's not like lacking a hard drive or something. You can still watch blu-ray movies and will still have pretty much all of the functionality of the higher spec model. Even in 5 years time most people still won't have HD TVs so will not be able to tell the difference.

King Bob On The Cob · May 9, 2006, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by willed

As for the controller - granted if it's got no vibrator built in then that's a step back. But basically, why change the controller? If it's not broke, don't fix it. There was even less innovation in the XBox 360s controller, but I didn't see anyone crying about that.

As for the lack of HDMI on the lower model - over the lifespan of the console, do you think that most of the people that buy the low spec one will even know what HDMI is?? Look at the demographic that buys the PS2 now - mainly teenage chavs and their parents. The finer details of the tech specs mean nothing to these people, and let's face it, it's not like lacking a hard drive or something. You can still watch blu-ray movies and will still have pretty much all of the functionality of the higher spec model. Even in 5 years time most people still won't have HD TVs so will not be able to tell the difference.

Isn't this completely opposite what the Sony fanboys were pushing over in the Nintendo threads? "Nintendo suxxxs because they don't have HD and everyone will have it before the console wars are over."

May 9, 2006, 06:15 AM

HDMI isn't the only thing missing from the low-end model. Wireless, memory card slots, and a smaller hard drive are what else you're losing - just to save $100. How many people are going to actually buy the low-end model when they can get all these other features for "just" $100 more? Not sure what the ratio was with the 360 was with their offerings but I would guess most people took the more expensive, feature complete package. I would.

But $600 f-in dollars?!?!?! Are they out of their ever-loving mind? Please, Sony - pass that pipe over here. Sounds like you must have some pretty good ****. I would hold those who spent $600 on this ugly-ass, overpriced game/movie player in the same regard as I do Hummer owners. And that ain't too high.

willed · May 9, 2006, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

Isn't this completely opposite what the Sony fanboys were pushing over in the Nintendo threads? "Nintendo suxxxs because they don't have HD and everyone will have it before the console wars are over."

I guess so, but at least with the PS3 you have the option to upgrade to the high end model. WIth the Nintendo you'll be stuck with low-res AFAIK

And Re: screaming fit: $600 sure is a lot of money, but when you look at the specs, in a PC they'd cost probably three times that.
I sure won't be getting one until the price comes way down, but it looks like a nice piece of kit.

starman · May 9, 2006, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by AssassyN

^ Your argument works until you realize that within 8-12 months, companies will have "universal" players out that play HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs for probably $500 or less.

By the time the PS3 hits the market, the argument of "well, a Blu-Ray player costs $500!" won't work.

That WILL NOT HAPPEN. Under current contracts, there will NEVER be a combo machine.

starman · May 9, 2006, 08:20 AM

I was struggling with the $599 price, but then I realized that I just dumped $499 on an HD-DVD player so for an extra $100, I'll get the PS3.

sabrejim · May 9, 2006, 08:20 AM

Was the hd dvd drive for the 360 given a 99$price?

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by ajprice

But they swear they didn't steal it from Nintendo, oh no, they got it from MS and Logitech motion sensing controllers, from 1999 !!!!

Well that part seems true.
http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2006/05...from-nintendo/

In Nintendo's defence sony wouldn't have thought of including it though if it wasn't for the Weeeee.

AssassyN · May 9, 2006, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by starman

That WILL NOT HAPPEN. Under current contracts, there will NEVER be a combo machine.

Are you kidding yourself? This is planet earth. All things eventually consolidate.

We now have DVD + *and* - R burners, whereas back in the day it was one or the other.
The two "competing" high-fidelity audio formats eventually met in players: SACD & DVD-A.
Heck, they even made single players to play VHS and DVD.

There's no doubt that sooner rather than later, a universal player will emerge.

starman · May 9, 2006, 09:58 AM

I think you might want to visit avsforum.com where people from the actual INDUSTRY who actually SIGN these papers and actually KNOW what they're talking about say that under CURRENT contracts, there will NEVER be a combo player.

LG is trying but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

May 9, 2006, 10:28 AM

At $600, I think they just made their marketshare dwindle down to the lucky few who can afford such extravagant toys. But, with their current yield problems with the Core processor I'm sure there's not going to be a lot of them out in the channel for awhile.

After a year of being on the market, when you can finally walk into a store without a pre-order and buy the thing, I'm sure it'll be maybe $400 or so. Still, overpriced and I'm not going to buy it for that much, either. Get it around $200-$250 and you have an almost impulse buy.

Say what you will about Nintendo but by and large, I'm sure more people will be buying the Wii out of the next-gen consoles because of the low(er) price. These companies have to remember that as more and more people lose their jobs in the US, the less people they'll have to buy their expensive toys.

Eug Wanker · 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sandkat

Wait, a STANDALONE HD-DVD player is $499 with HDMI. Or for an extra $100 you can get a Blu-Ray player with HDMI, wireless, memory stick input, and plays PS1, PS2, PS3 games? Hmm, even if the standalone HD-DVD player dropped to $399, that PS3 is still a pretty damn good deal if you ask me.

But in the end it's all speculation. You don't know when or even if they will require HDMI for HD movies. All we know is they don't now, but it's possible. We don't even know how much the 360 HD-DVD addon will cost. I personally do not like addons. Yay for another thing to stack. Yay for ANOTHER thing to plug into an outlet behind my entertainment center.

$460 for a standalone HD DVD player NOW from Target, including shipping. Who knows what the pricing will be in November... BTW, there are some Chinese manufacturers who have already signed on to manufacture HD DVD players, under full licence. IMO it's going to be pricing that drives the market, and a $600 PS3 simply doesn't cut it for someone who is not interested in gaming.

That and the fact that currently Blu-ray is in a poor state because of lack of dual-layer discs and lack of proper authoring solutions for VC-1 and H.264. It really doesn't bode well for Blu-ray.

Sony had the chance to win the Blu-ray war, but IMO they've botched it. I suspect now that it will be a stalemate, and we will have hybrid players by the end of 2007. If Sony prevents it, then it's quite possible that Sony will put the nail in its own coffin. HD DVD has no such restrictions, and I suspect we'll see relatively inexpensive Chinese HD DVD or combo EVD/HD DVD players by the first half of 2007.

Originally Posted by Sandkat

Premium XBox 360 = $399
Wireless Adapter = $99
HD-DVD Addon = $99?
-----------------------
Hmm what does the price come out to? I'm not good at math

Originally Posted by goMac

The point is the 360 gives users the option. Myself, I don't need WiFi, but HD-DVD would be nice. If I want Bluray on the PS3 I'm forced to pay $600 for an HDMI compatible box in order to take full advantage of Bluray. I can't simply buy a $499 PS3 and upgrade it to HDMI.

Indeed. Joe Average isn't going to spend $499 for a PS3 for Joe Average Junior at Xmas 2006, when the Xbox 360 only costs $299 (or $399 with all the fixins). Joe Average may not need the wireless adapter (since the Xbox 360 already has an Ethernet port), and Joe Average definitely doesn't need the HD DVD add-on. And even if he decides he does later, he can spend the cash at Xmas 2007 for the add-on, or even a cheap Chinese player.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 10:45 AM

The PS3 is expensive, no doubt about that.

But when you break it down it makes more sense.

Lets say you want a HD-DVD player that is $500
Now a Nintendo Weeee say $250

That is already more than the PS3

The PS3 has the following:
Blu-ray player value: $1500
60 gig hard drive: lets say: $60
Wireless: (Xbox 360 charges $100)

Just those few things alone add up to almost $1700 and I am not even scratching the surface of what the PS3 will offer.

Heck if it wasn't for the PS3 I would have got a Blu-ray drive eventually anyway. I know I wouldn't get it for less than $800 this year so the PS3 is already worth it to me.

Not to mention I just bought a MacMini that isn't even as powerful or useful (for me) as the PS3 will be.

If you look at it in terms of a game system YES IT IS EXPENSIVE. But if you look at it in terms of all the other stuff you get with it than it can't be beat. Hell sony is losing money on selling it to you so you might as well take them for all they got.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 10:56 AM

I don't think price is that big of a deal. When the Xbox 360 was announced people were shocked at the price. They were on ebay for 3x what they were worth.

Microsoft had an impossible time of giving everyone enough Xbox's, just now the supply has increased. they have sold 3.3 million units already!

With the cost of the PS3 people Sony is definitely going to lose business to the Xbox and well as the weee. But people with the PS3 will have the best gaming and multimedia system on the market by far and sony has always targeted the hard core gamer.

With PC gamers dropping $10,000 on an Alienware system or people building their own PC from scratch for $1200 to play Doom alone I don't see what all this fuss over $600 is.

starman · May 9, 2006, 11:04 AM

Just playing devil's advocate, it is a lot for a console since, as we said in another thread, not everyone's gonna go ga-ga over the Blu-Ray drive. If it were a standard DVD drive (which the lower model SHOULD BE), then it would have been $399.

Dakar · May 9, 2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Just playing devil's advocate, it is a lot for a console since, as we said in another thread, not everyone's gonna go ga-ga over the Blu-Ray drive. If it were a standard DVD drive (which the lower model SHOULD BE), then it would have been $399.

For some reason I assumed some games would be coming out on blu-ray. So you'd need the drive.

starman · May 9, 2006, 11:13 AM

Well, that the thing. As I said before, if you could fit FF X on a single DVD, then there's NO NEED for a Blu-Ray game just yet. In the future? Absolutely. However, we don't need 50 GB games.

Eug Wanker · May 9, 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I don't think price is that big of a deal. When the Xbox 360 was announced people were shocked at the price. They were on ebay for 3x what they were worth.

Microsoft had an impossible time of giving everyone enough Xbox's, just now the supply has increased. they have sold 3.3 million units already!

With the cost of the PS3 people Sony is definitely going to lose business to the Xbox and well as the weee. But people with the PS3 will have the best gaming and multimedia system on the market by far and sony has always targeted the hard core gamer.

With PC gamers dropping $10,000 on an Alienware system or people building their own PC from scratch for $1200 to play Doom alone I don't see what all this fuss over $600 is.

You've said it yourself before. The people who spend $10000 on Alienware systems or $1200 just to play Doom are not the primary console market.

Yes, the cost of the PS3 is definitely going to mean lost market share to the Xbox 360 and Wii. In fact, I think the Wii has the most to gain here. Xbox 360 still ain't gonna get the Japanese market, and it's still somewhat expensive in the US market (with the PS3 priced right out of much of that market), and then there's the Wii with the interesting new controller and games that actually make use of it.

The high price of the PS3 is a HUGE deal, and I betcha the movie studios supporting Blu-ray are not happy about it, and the general state of Blu-ray today.

starman · May 9, 2006, 11:20 AM

The Blu-Ray supporters on the home theater forums are livid.

ajprice · May 9, 2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by starman

If it were a standard DVD drive (which the lower model SHOULD BE), then it would have been $399.

Wouldn't work, the PS3 game discs are Blu Ray and many games are going to be made to take up the storage space available, which is way more than a dual layer DVD. A single layer Blu Ray is 25Gb, a Dual Layer DVD is 9Gb. And if you think they will never fill a Blu Ray disc with a game, think about Gran Turismo 5, Midnight Club 4 or a new GTA game, with an iPod's worth of songs on the soundtrack, and all the data for 100's (maybe over 1000) high res car models. OK some games might be on DVD, like some early PS2 games were on CD, but Blu Ray will be the preferred format for the game discs.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

You've said it yourself before. The people who spend $10000 on Alienware systems or $1200 just to play Doom are not the primary console market.

I don't remember saying that aren't the primary console market but I do remember calling them morons.

Dakar · May 9, 2006, 11:28 AM

I read on a another forum the new wireless controllers don't have dual-shock as they lost the patent. Can anyone confirm this?

Eug Wanker · May 9, 2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by starman

The Blu-Ray supporters on the home theater forums are livid.

Indeed. What I find striking though are these sentiments:

1) OMFG I am sooo gonna get the Wii!
2) No chance in hell I'm getting the PS3 any time soon.

And yes these are from gamer geeks.

I'm just happy I didn't bother waiting for the PS3. It was my first choice last year, but the missed spring release date was enough for me to jump ship.

Originally Posted by Dakar

I read on a another forum the new wireless controllers don't have dual-shock as they lost the patent. Can anyone confirm this?

They've lost the rumble. Mind you I am almost happy about that. I've always hated the rumble feature.

Dakar · May 9, 2006, 11:37 AM

I'm quite fond of it. I like the feedback, particularly in racing and sports games.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

They've lost the rumble. Mind you I am almost happy about that. I've always hated the rumble feature.

Actually other than the price this is the only thing I don't like about the PS3. I loooove rumble.

olePigeon · May 9, 2006, 11:52 AM

If you think about the PS3 as a Blu-Ray DVD player that can also play games, it's relatively cheap. The first Blu-Ray DVD players are running for $1100 (or at least, that's what I've read.)

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

If you think about the PS3 as a Blu-Ray DVD player that can also play games, it's relatively cheap. The first Blu-Ray DVD players are running for $1100 (or at least, that's what I've read.)

Ya that is what I have been saying.

If you have a high def tv and want high def DVD the PS3 is a steal!

If you just want games it is slightly overpriced.

Yes the Xbox is $200 cheaper but add the $100 wireless adapter (like Eug did) and the future HD-DVD player and it costs more than the PS3.

Heck I paid $1000 for the first progressive scan DVD player in 1999.

sabrejim · May 9, 2006, 11:59 AM

The loss of rumble is gonna hurt them. People don't realise how much those little things add up.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by kaze0

The loss of rumble is gonna hurt them. People don't realise how much those little things add up.

Perhaps it also has something to do with the lawsuit.

Eug Wanker · May 9, 2006, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

If you think about the PS3 as a Blu-Ray DVD player that can also play games, it's relatively cheap. The first Blu-Ray DVD players are running for $1100 (or at least, that's what I've read.)

$999 for the first Blu-ray players in June/July, but some of them don't even play CDs. So yeah, the PS3 is cheap compared to that. OTOH, it won't be out until November.

However, standalone HD DVD players complete with HDMI are already on sale under $500, with discs available at Best Buy and Walmart. It will be interesting to hear what the HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 costs too. People who bought the $299 Xbox 360 for Xmas 2005 can simply buy a $199 Xbox 360 add-on HD DVD drive for Xmas 2006.

Dark Helmet · May 9, 2006, 12:26 PM

I am really shocked the PS3 doesn't come with a remote. I mean how the heck do they expect us to control blu-rays? With the stupid controller?

May 9, 2006, 12:34 PM

As a Blu-Ray movie player, sure it's a steal if you were in the market for a Blu-Ray player this year. But with the crappy movies that are on Blu-Ray's release schedule - ermm, no thanks. I'd rather be stuck with an old 2-head VCR and a NES stuck together with peanut butter instead.

Fact is, most people who game don't have a lot of money. Not all of us have the means to purchase a $1000 DVD player. If DVD players still cost $1000 today, it would still be a niche product (if it was still around). You cannot sustain a platform for very long, I would think, when the cost of it is unattainable by the masses. They need to get the price below $300 in order to capture any significant portion of the market.