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You Are Toxic! Also discussion of scientific notation styles.
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subego
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Nov 26, 2022, 07:35 PM
 
https://www.truity.com/test/toxic-tr...rsonality-quiz






I dunno… sorta? I’m definitely not a negative person, it’s just the negative answers fit me better than the asshole answers. I’ll take rigid and arrogant, but I generally aim to keep those to myself.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 26, 2022, 09:04 PM
 
Oh, I forgot. It said my generic toxic personality type is “control freak”.

Half true? Real control freaks freak when they’re not in control. I dislike it, but I generally don’t freak because (as the test reflects) I highly dislike causing drama.

Now, I absolutely love watching drama.
     
ghporter
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Nov 27, 2022, 11:59 AM
 
Well that was interesting. Many of the questions were clearly phrased to push you in one direction or another, and I’m interested in how they scored them.



Hmmm. This feels like a freshman psych project to me…

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Laminar
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Nov 27, 2022, 01:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh, I forgot. It said my generic toxic personality type is “control freak”.

Half true? Real control freaks freak when they’re not in control. I dislike it, but I generally don’t freak because (as the test reflects) I highly dislike causing drama.

Now, I absolutely love watching drama.
*fistbump*

     
subego  (op)
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Nov 27, 2022, 01:25 PM
 
You need more arrogance in your life.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 27, 2022, 01:40 PM
 
@Laminar

I’m curious. Do you consider yourself to be negative person, or is a big part of your job anticipating what could go wrong and making sure it doesn’t?
     
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Nov 27, 2022, 04:35 PM
 


I don't think I'm that negative. I thought a lot of the questions lacked an answer I wanted to pick at all though so I'm not surprised.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 27, 2022, 09:12 PM
 
I go Mansplainer. Although for some of the multiple choice questions I felt like I was given 4 arshole responses and was forced to choose one. I can't find my tab with my score sheet, but I scored low on the manipulative and negative scale. And high on arrogance.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
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Nov 28, 2022, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Laminar

I’m curious. Do you consider yourself to be negative person, or is a big part of your job anticipating what could go wrong and making sure it doesn’t?
Both.

I've said to my wife multiple times, "I'll stop being so cynical when I stop getting proven right." Usually it's in regards to assuming the intentions of other people. I'm not a downer all the time, no one wants to spend any amount of time around that person.

My job is basically 6 months of planning to install and implement a project over a 1 week period, at which point the project must run and produce on day 1, otherwise we're losing money. If something can go wrong it will, but I've either got a contingency plan already ready or I'm quick enough on my feet to make something else work.

In regards to the quiz, the assessments I trust the least are the ones that require a high degree of self-awareness to get accurate results. When I worked at Bible Camp one summer, all the counselors did an assessment that categorized them as a Lion (leader), Golden Retriever (lover), or Fox (analyzer). Obviously I was a fox (as was the counselor that ended up becoming my wife), but it was funny to see who self-assessed as a leader only to find the test results put them in the lover category.

I think a lot of people are bad at "how would you act in this hypothetical situation" because there's a huge gap between their beliefs and reality.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 28, 2022, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Usually it's in regards to assuming the intentions of other people.
I posit what appears to be bad faith is almost always in fact misplaced good faith.

I’m sure you’ve experienced entering into a situation with the best of intentions, only to discover it’s served to make things an order of magnitude worse.

I’m by no means religious, but I believe there is true wisdom behind the cliche “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions”.


While we’re on the subject, “there but for the grace of God go you and I” is another one of those fundamental truths I put stock in despite not really believing in God. Should I be judged a “good person”, that has far more to do with luck than it has to do with something inside myself.



Edit: to put that another way, assuming people don’t have the best intent is a good strategy from a “results-based” standpoint, but I’m not sure it’s accurately assessing the underlying intent.
( Last edited by subego; Nov 28, 2022 at 12:00 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Nov 28, 2022, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: to put that another way, assuming people don’t have the best intent is a good strategy from a “results-based” standpoint, but I’m not sure it’s accurately assessing the underlying intent.
It's great for predicting outcomes. It's not great for understanding, relating to, and growing people.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 28, 2022, 01:02 PM
 
I feel one can get the best of both by assuming the result, but likewise assuming the vast majority of the time the result wasn’t the intent.

Assume the worst yet look for the best.
     
ghporter
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Nov 28, 2022, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I go Mansplainer. Although for some of the multiple choice questions I felt like I was given 4 arshole responses and was forced to choose one. I can't find my tab with my score sheet, but I scored low on the manipulative and negative scale. And high on arrogance.
Oh yeah. Lots of loaded questions with poor to bad response options.

For example, I spent MOST OF MY LIFE teaching college level courses or providing hands-on therapy. Both of these require plenty of self confidence, plenty of “rule adherence.” Which apparently scores as “arrogance” and “rigidity.” And frankly they both require a whole lot of explaining. So “mansplaining” just sounds like an insult.

My job teaching was literally to be “the knower of all things,” and I was really good at it. As a therapist, patients’ compliance with therapy activities demands that they understand both what and WHY they need to do them. Yeah, LOTS of explaining.

But I take this quiz like a lot of other online personality tests. “For entertainment purposes only.”

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 28, 2022, 10:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Oh yeah. Lots of loaded questions with poor to bad response options.
Yeah, that soured me a little on the test. It is skewed too much on the fun side for my taste.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
For example, I spent MOST OF MY LIFE teaching college level courses or providing hands-on therapy. Both of these require plenty of self confidence, plenty of “rule adherence.” Which apparently scores as “arrogance” and “rigidity.” And frankly they both require a whole lot of explaining. So “mansplaining” just sounds like an insult.
Same here: I work at university as a researcher and teaching is part of that. Natural sciences are also quite unforgiving, if we are working on a publication together, and there is an error in your computation, I need to insist that you fix it. (Or explain to me where I am wrong.) So you need some degree of anal retentiveness and attention for detail to do the job.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
My job teaching was literally to be “the knower of all things,” and I was really good at it. As a therapist, patients’ compliance with therapy activities demands that they understand both what and WHY they need to do them. Yeah, LOTS of explaining.
And you need to tell them what they ought to do — it is part of your job description.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
But I take this quiz like a lot of other online personality tests. “For entertainment purposes only.”
Any others that are worthwhile?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
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Nov 29, 2022, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Any others that are worthwhile?
Not sure about academia, but I've taken the DISC assessment several times for different work initiatives, so I'm assuming it has some credence in the professional world.

https://www.123test.com/disc-personality-test/
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 29, 2022, 12:18 PM
 
That gives me a Myers-Briggs vibe.
     
Laminar
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Nov 29, 2022, 12:49 PM
 
Speaking of M-B, apparently the INTJ subreddit is a pretty rough place, full of the kind of people that would unironically idolize Scarface, Gregory House, or Rick Sanchez.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 29, 2022, 01:08 PM
 
For an entire minute I thought you meant Rick Sanchez from CNN.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 29, 2022, 01:35 PM
 
I had to reacquaint myself with the different types. That’s definitely one of the “huge asshole” categories.

I’m only familiar with M-B at all because I consider these types of models good fodder for NPC random personality generators.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 29, 2022, 03:18 PM
 
“You are conscientious, diligent and pay attention to detail. You constantly strive for accuracy and high standards. You have an inner drive to be systematic and precise in all that you do. You are a natural choice for work that requires attention to detail and accuracy.”



Seems legit.
     
Laminar
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Nov 29, 2022, 03:47 PM
 
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 29, 2022, 04:39 PM
 
Very interesting how similarly we score on these tests.

Also very interesting we have both chosen career paths that hinge on successfully fitting two tons of shit in a one pound bag.
     
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Nov 29, 2022, 04:58 PM
 
I scored Debbie Downer. That tracks. Frequently at work I feel like Cassandra telling people "X won't work because Y doesn't integrate with that system" or any number of things. Also being incredibly detail-oriented annoys people.



Myers Briggs testing definitely is punishing people for personality traits.
     
ghporter
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Dec 1, 2022, 01:07 PM
 
At least - when it was presented to me - Myers-Briggs was useful in assisting with self awareness. "These are some of your traits that come across to other people, so being aware of them could help with improving your professional social interactions." If I were to do the M-B assessment today, I'm sure I'd get much different results.

However, another thing that was connected to teaching for a very long time was "test question construction." You write test/quiz questions to address an actual goal or learning objective. Multiple choice questions are relatively simple to write, but you construct the options differently depending on what you're looking for.

And since I not only wrote tons of test questions, but evaluated other instructors' performance in this task, I can't help but evaluate just about any test/quiz item I read. In the case of this "toxic" quiz, many of the items have zero "good" options, and they don't really give you much flexibility in your choice of the "least bad" option to choose.

Having extensive formal training in teaching; course development, including testing outcomes; and in formally evaluating other instructors' performance made college courses "interesting" and "challenging" to say the least.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 1, 2022, 07:40 PM
 
I have little experience writing test/survey/poll questions, but I find them to be almost universally bad. The toxic one was extra bad. Not just with the question design, but also the way the model interprets answers.

I was impressed with the DISC most-least question design. Much better than using a “scale”.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 1, 2022, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Also being incredibly detail-oriented annoys people.
How?

I’m not saying it doesn’t, I just want to be sure I recognize how it does and avoid it.

The big one I can think of is I’m extremely bad at distinguishing relevant details from the irrelevant ones when I’m trying to explain things.

I guess a secondary one is the more details there are, the more there is to be critical about.
     
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Dec 2, 2022, 01:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How?

I’m not saying it doesn’t, I just want to be sure I recognize how it does and avoid it.
When you notice details, you can't unsee them and at least I can get uncompromising about things other people wouldn't care less about. E. g. when typesetting equations I am extremely meticulous about choosing bracket sizes manually so that the end result jives with my sense of aesthetics.

Almost all scientific journals — in their infinite wisdom — will undo this, and then I spend a few revisions restoring everything back.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The big one I can think of is I’m extremely bad at distinguishing relevant details from the irrelevant ones when I’m trying to explain things.
That is crucial, but in many ways hard to answer: when you consider the right way is part of your sense of what proper craftsmanship or art should be, this gets super tricky. This attention to detail is what makes you good. But it can also be what annoys the shirt out of your partner and your friends.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 2, 2022, 07:06 AM
 
I’m curious how that works.

If I’m the designer for a journal, I set a style guide for equations, and that’s how they’re going to be done. My infinite wisdom is bracket sizes should be consistent throughout the journal. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the difficulty of typesetting equations, but if I’m the aesthetics guy I’m going to ride that fence.

As an aside, how do you typeset equations? Is tex still a thing? I do it rarely enough I generally cheat and just use Illustrator.
     
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Dec 2, 2022, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How? I’m not saying it doesn’t, I just want to be sure I recognize how it does and avoid it.
The big one I can think of is I’m extremely bad at distinguishing relevant details from the irrelevant ones when I’m trying to explain things.
I guess a secondary one is the more details there are, the more there is to be critical about.
I have been told I am negative, by some. Some do appreciate honesty and straightforwardness but over the years I'm afraid those traits have been trained out of me. Frequently nowadays I will pause before pointing out bad design, or errors, and ponder if it really matters.

Nowadays I do try very hard to phrase criticism in the passive girly way that Meyers Briggs afficionado HR seems to prefer ("gee Beth, I don't know if you noticed, but is that the way we spell the Company Name? What do you think, John?") however sometimes people find any criticism negative no matter how mild, constructive, or accurate.

Suzy Project Manager: Here's the landing page our outside vendor did, just need approval and its all set to go and ready for the Big Event!
Senior stakeholders: Looks great! Ready to go!
Me: Hey, there's a bunch of typos, the brand color is not the right hex color, we have a newer product photo, and the link to the Buy page is not working.
Suzy Project Manager: Well, we don't have time to fix any of that now, so it will have to go live, and we can address in a future update. (thinks: what a PITA slowing things down)

{the future update never happens, the outside vendor continues to use the wrong hex color, ad infinitum}

Originally Posted by subego View Post
If I’m the designer for a journal, I set a style guide for equations, and that’s how they’re going to be done. My infinite wisdom is bracket sizes should be consistent throughout the journal. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the difficulty of typesetting equations, but if I’m the aesthetics guy I’m going to ride that fence.
This is the way. Journals have a styleguide, and your special equation using 30pt comic sans for {x=2} does not fit brand guidelines.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 2, 2022, 07:34 PM
 
You should steal Suzy’s job.
     
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Dec 2, 2022, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m curious how that works.

If I’m the designer for a journal, I set a style guide for equations, and that’s how they’re going to be done. My infinite wisdom is bracket sizes should be consistent throughout the journal. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the difficulty of typesetting equations, but if I’m the aesthetics guy I’m going to ride that fence.
Yes, TeX is still the name of the game.
AFAIK bracket sizes are not covered. There are only a few things in equations, which are covered by the style guides. My suspicion is that it is very easy to make what designers think of aesthetic changes, but which in actuality totally change the meaning of the equations. E. g. you cannot just replace round brackets by braces or curly brackets.

My experience tells me that journals and to a lesser degree book publishers as step 1 normalize the TeX code. That sometimes introduces errors, too, because most seem to do search & replace. If you are not careful, you can really fork things up.

The worst experience, though, is with the single journal who thought it was a good idea to have a non-TeX backend. What idiot came up with this, I don’t know. But processing takes much longer, and because you literally cannot use the journal’s template, you cannot anticipate things like break up equations to fit the space. It is also the only journal that managed to introduce mathematical errors into my equations. As you can imagine, this is a huge no-no. Also because you can no longer trust any of the other equations. When you are talking about a 50-page manuscript with lots of long, subtle formulae, this is a huge undertaking and slows everything down. Plus, it is super easy to miss subtle mistakes. Think of the math equivalent of the the, which gets easily missed.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As an aside, how do you typeset equations? Is tex still a thing? I do it rarely enough I generally cheat and just use Illustrator.
Yup, it is mostly TeX, and it works very well once you get the hang of it. For more layout-centric problems, it is sometimes a bit unwieldy, but unlike e. g. Word it doesn’t crash when your manuscript reaches a certain size or contains a lot of figures and graphs.
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Dec 3, 2022, 01:23 PM
 
Being detail-oriented should not annoy people - if it’s done in proper context.

You WANT some people to be very detail oriented. A surgeon. Your tax accountant. The guy fixing your expensive car*. But you want that ONLY in the context of their area of expertise. Sitting over coffee and chatting about tax rules in general would be annoying unless the accountant was talking about how stupid those rules are.

If one’s personality is focused on being detail oriented to the extent that they are annoying to everyone all the time, that is a personality problem. And it could be pathological. Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder is such a situation. But most people who come across in social situations as being overly detail oriented often have basically poor social skills and their detail oriented conversation probably comes from their specific area of expertise or experience. Think baseball card collectors. Yeah, that’s annoying, but at least they’re trying…

*Old joke: “The three people you never want to hear say ‘oops’ are your brain surgeon, your tax accountant, and the guy that fixes your Mercedes.”

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 3, 2022, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
lE. g. you cannot just replace round brackets by braces or curly brackets.
I’d be highly suspicious of any journal who managed to hire a designer unfamiliar with this concept. I mean, this isn’t even limited to math. There’s a difference between a (parenthetical aside) and an [editorial aside].
     
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Dec 3, 2022, 10:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’d be highly suspicious of any journal who managed to hire a designer unfamiliar with this concept. I mean, this isn’t even limited to math. There’s a difference between a (parenthetical aside) and an [editorial aside].
Ugh, yeah. The style guide for one family of journals enforces that if text in parentheses contains parentheses (perhaps only at beginning or end), they will change the outer parentheses to braces. :facepalm: That’s actually quite common once in my line of work, because you’d commonly write “blablabla (see equation (2.4)).” The journal would insist to change it to “blablabla [see equation (2.4)].”

Plus, the templates for most journals is quite hideous and based on rather outdated assumptions. One of them is paper is a scarce resource, so margins should be minimal. The other is that typesetting is largely done by the authors, not the journal. In most circumstances, the suggestions by the production team were a net negative and caused extra work.

@Glenn
Exactly. It’s just that these personality traits tend to bleed over into other areas of life. It’s a tradeoff, I guess. Having two close family members with OCD, my father and my sister, I know exactly what you mean. When I was young, I’d take much of his advice regarding business matters. (He is a lawyer and a certified tax lawyer.) But it turns out, I was pissing a lot of people off (unnecessarily). Approaching life from the perspective of a lawyer and the sense that everyone is out to screw you over is in most situations quite counterproductive.
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subego  (op)
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Dec 3, 2022, 11:57 PM
 
I must admit double parentheses irk me.
     
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Dec 4, 2022, 07:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I must admit double parentheses irk me.
They are not pretty, but when you are dealing with equations, they are often unavoidable.

And properly chosen bracket sizes can help you digest equations, because they give you a visual hierarchy. I might post some examples later …
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subego  (op)
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Dec 4, 2022, 07:57 PM
 
Oh… they don’t bother me at all in actual equations. It was the reference example I was thinking of.
     
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Dec 6, 2022, 03:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh… they don’t bother me at all in actual equations. It was the reference example I was thinking of.
References are tricky, too, because depending on the journal style, they might actually become part of the text. My preferred style is first letter of last name(s) of authors + year (two digits). This way, if you know the subject matter, you can guess with pretty good certainty who they are talking about. E. g. if the two of us had a hypothetical paper in 2012, it'd be [OS12] (in math the authors are almost always enumerated alphabetically). That's another source of mixed brackets, because you often encounter sentences like “It has been shown that if X holds, then Y is true also (cf. Theorem 2.1 in [OS12]).” (The sentence isn't super nice, but it gets the point across.)
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subego  (op)
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Dec 10, 2022, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Not sure about academia, but I've taken the DISC assessment several times for different work initiatives, so I'm assuming it has some credence in the professional world.

https://www.123test.com/disc-personality-test/
I wanted to pass along how much I’ve come to like this and thank you for introducing me to it.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 12, 2022, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's another source of mixed brackets, because you often encounter sentences like “It has been shown that if X holds, then Y is true also (cf. Theorem 2.1 in [OS12]).” (The sentence isn't super nice, but it gets the point across.)
This is another thing which baffled me about the reference example you gave “blablabla [see equation (2.4)]”.

If you’re going to mess around this way, why isn’t the 2.4 what gets put in brackets? Like with [OS12].

Maybe there’s some mathcentric reason for not using brackets, but I feel I’ve seen papers where figures, tables, and equations get put in brackets in the text itself (e.g., above figure 12 would be “[Figure 12]”).
     
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Dec 19, 2022, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I wanted to pass along how much I’ve come to like this and thank you for introducing me to it.
Do you do Enneagrams? DISC is the business-centric profile I've used, but if you're interested in personality types, the enneagrams test is also fun. I'm a 5, wife is a 4. Every single sentence on this page perfectly describes our marriage.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
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Dec 19, 2022, 11:06 AM
 
Since we seem to track, not surprised I’m also a 5, though this version of the test gives you little information without paying.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
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Dec 19, 2022, 12:29 PM
 
Enneagram is universal enough and less corporate, so there's quite a bit of free info out there.
     
Thorzdad
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
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Dec 19, 2022, 06:32 PM
 
Hmmm...I’m a 9.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
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Dec 19, 2022, 07:35 PM
 
It turns out my negative yet not negative personality has across the years convinced my partner I think he’s reckless.

I mean, in a sense I do. He’s reckless compared to me. We have very different tolerances for risk and approaches towards risk management.

He’ll get toast out of a plugged-in toaster with a metal knife under the presumption nothing will go wrong if he’s careful. That is correct, but I’ll unplug the toaster because then it doesn’t matter whether I succeed in being careful.

I ended up buying him a pair of silicone coated tongs.

The upshot of this is when he comes up with ideas on the wackier side, he doesn’t see me tearing immediately into the risks as an attempt to manage them so his goal can be achieved, but as admonishing him for having such a “reckless” idea in the first place.
     
   
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