[waxcrash]

Nikon announced two new DSLRs today. I'm glad to hear that Nikon will be releasing a firmware update for D70 owners to add some of the D70s features. So what do the photo buffs here think?

Nikon D50

Nikon D70s

[budster101]

Meh.
I like the Canon 10D / 20D.

Not a fan of Nikon, since the F series.

[MaxPower2k3]

the firmware update is good news for me and my D70

[Demonhood]

not too impressed. i thought nikon would release something to compete with canon this round.
anyway, my Canon Rebel XT arrives next week.

[ThisGuy]

1 more plug for Canon.

[Marv]

Well, like it or not, the D70 is the cash cow for Nikon in a big way. The D70s addds more polish to help keep sales strong and provide an answer to Canon, which has been trying to reespond as quickly as they can.

The D50 should grab a little more of the lower end market and hopefully amplify Nikon's profit. That seems to be the sweat spot for profits right now.

While everyone is stating their preferences, I don't think Canon nor Nikon offer anything that is so far ahead of the other that it really makes a difference. I have seen unbelievable pictures come from the humblest of equipment. Being a good photographer is what really counts.

Oh, and having fun while you are taking pictures also counts, too.

[viperstrike]

If you are starting from scratch (ie, no lenses), why would you chose the D70s over the RebelXT? I think Nikon felt pressured by Canon to release anything they had...even if it is the same camera with a different model numbering. And, like demonhood, my old Digital Rebel gets replaced with the XT next week. And hopefully in a year or two, I'll have enough saved up for the successor to the 20D. Ahh, how the toys get more expensive.

[ASIMO]

Originally Posted by viperstrike

If you are starting from scratch (ie, no lenses), why would you chose the D70s over the RebelXT?...

Found it: Preference.

I knew such a word existed in our arcane language.

[viperstrike]

How would you have a "Preference" if you are "starting from scratch"? I probably should have said: "If you are purchasing a digital SLR for the first time..."

[vcutag]

I'll stick with my Canon Digital Rebel (and successor to the 20D, whatever that may be), although my EOS 620 is my baby.

[Link]

Nice specs, but they need to hire new camera designers lol

[villalobos]

My D70 has been nothing short of amazing. For $100 one can attach to it a 1.8 50mm nikkor lens of exceptional quality (for the price that is), and the 18-70mm provided with the kit is of excellent quality too (that would be one advantage over the Canon for somebody starting from scratch).

The new cameras are small evolutions, even made smaller by the fact that Nikon is actually offering a firmware update. Way to go Nikon!!

villa

[Demonhood]

i will give them credit for the firmware upgrade. quite nice to offer current owners additional features and improvements. i guess i was just expecting an answer to the XT.
i have a Nikon N70, and it has always served me well. but, considering how little glass i own for it, i wasn't married to it.

[OreoCookie]

I never liked Canon's UI, and although I never laid hands on the new Canon 350 D (Rebel XT?), the old model felt pretty cheap in my hands. But for the time being I'll stick with my Olympus.

[Sandbaggins]

For me the ergonomics on the D70 are better than Canons (comparable bodies).

Nikon's flash system was better as well when I purchased the D70. If i'm not mistaken it still is. If you don't have an SB-800 go get one, two or three.

I simply like Nikon better. Canon is great. Superb glass, a new body out every 6 months
Nikon is my choice for several reasons. I plan to stick with Nikon for a while.

Go to a shop and get a feel for the cameras and see what they offer and what your needs are and then purchase.

[OreoCookie]

Also, I think the importance of megapixels per camera is overrated. Getting more than four is sufficient for most intents and purposes (of hobbyists, anyway). Canon clearly takes a lead there and they did a pretty good job at improving CMOS sensors (which Nikon now uses in the D2x as well). On the other hand, it doesn't make up for their strange ergonomics and the `cheaper' feel of the smaller models.

If I had the money, I would invest it in a D70s.

[Goldfinger]

Well, as long as they have these miniature viewfinders these cameras remain useless for me. I almost bought a D70 untill I looked through that viewfinder. I'm sticking with my Nikon F5/DimageScan combo until some affordable second hand Pro digitals come available with decent specs.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Well, as long as they have these miniature viewfinders these cameras remain useless for me. I almost bought a D70 untill I looked through that viewfinder. I'm sticking with my Nikon F5/DimageScan combo until some affordable second hand Pro digitals come available with decent specs.

That's how I settled my decision: F80 vs. `pro-sumer' viewfinder digital in 2002. I just had to look through the viewfinder

[starman]

20D here.

[shabbasuraj]

D70 here.

ugghhh.... need money for MORE glass.... ughhhh....helllppp mmee....

LOL..

[Demonhood]

hey, no one said it would be a cheap hobby.

[MaxPower2k3]

Yeah, seriously.

On that note, has anyone used Sigma lenses? Or, specifically, the Sigma 105mm Macro? I'm looking at it for my D70 (it's around $360 new) and it seems to be fairly well-rated. Currently the only lens i have is the 18-70 that ships with the D70 kit.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

Yeah, seriously.

On that note, has anyone used Sigma lenses? Or, specifically, the Sigma 105mm Macro? I'm looking at it for my D70 (it's around $360 new) and it seems to be fairly well-rated. Currently the only lens i have is the 18-70 that ships with the D70 kit.

My cousin (a professional photographer) uses mostly non-Canon lenses and he is very happy with the picture quality (Canon EOS 1D Mark II is his latest baby, I think). He said, they give the same image quality, but are far cheaper.

Personally, I had Tokina lenses and their built-quality was amazing. They survived an impact on concrete at speeds well in excess of 35 km/h. My F80 almost survived. The lenses did, worked flawlessly (ok, there was a scratch, my UV filter broke and the lens hood broke as well, but the lenses itself worked just fine).

[vcutag]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

My cousin (a professional photographer) uses mostly non-Canon lenses and he is very happy with the picture quality (Canon EOS 1D Mark II is his latest baby, I think). He said, they give the same image quality, but are far cheaper.

Personally, I had Tokina lenses and their built-quality was amazing. They survived an impact on concrete at speeds well in excess of 35 km/h. My F80 almost survived. The lenses did, worked flawlessly (ok, there was a scratch, my UV filter broke and the lens hood broke as well, but the lenses itself worked just fine).

My most-used and favorite lens is my Tamron 28-75 f2.8, it's a much cheaper competitor to Canon's EF 24-70 f2.8L. I've had great results with it.

Still saving for a 70-200 f2.8 L, though... :-\

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by vcutag

My most-used and favorite lens is my Tamron 28-75 f2.8, it's a much cheaper competitor to Canon's EF 24-70 f2.8L. I've had great results with it.

Still saving for a 70-200 f2.8 L, though... :-\

The lenses I was talking about was a Tokina 2.8/28-80. Maybe I should have mentioned that.

[glideslope]

The D50 is slightly larger than the 350XT. IMO, this will be a big plus for the D50. I know many people who feel the 350XT is "just a little" small. The D70s is a mild refresh until the new DSLR this fall, Nikon has a history of mid cycle refreshing. N75s/N80s and so on.

The D70 is a different camera than the Canon breed. I owned a 20D for 8 months starting last fall. I would spend hours in PSCS trying to get the colors the way I felt they should be. It was my first DSLR after 25 years of film. I now own a D70 and I'm happier than a Pig in a Trash Bin. The colors on the Nikon are much more accurately reproduced. The AA Filter on Nikon DSLR's is weaker than the Canon. I'll trade that "Silky Smooth" Canon image for my D70 image any day of the week.

The only place you are going to notice any improvement with 8mp vs 6mp is in landscape photography.
80% of the people who purchase a 20D never print larger than 8x10. You don't need 8mp for this. Take a look at a correctly exposed 20" print from a 4mp D2H some time.

It was nice to see Nikon offer the firmware from the D70s. That is not a common practice these days, and as long as they don't encrypt the WB I'm game!!!!!

[macroy]

Got the XT earlier this week as my first SLR. I'm pretty impressed with the quality of the pictures (keep in mind this is from a photo newbie). It does feel a bit 'cheap' where the CF slot is. I'm guessing its because of the fact that its hollow there. But still, my last camera was a CoolPix 990 and that felt more sturdy. The only thing I didn't like about the nikon is it seems a bit complicated. Even this SLR seem a bit more intuitive.

Since there seems to be a good amount of 'experts' here. Let me throw in a question - I had originally planned on just the camera body, and got a 28-90mm lense with it. But due to some error on the vendors part, and my rush to get the camera sooner. They got me to agree to a kit for $60 more - which came with the 18-50mm lense. Are these 2 lenses redundant?

Also, anone want to suggest a good book on photography?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by macroy

Got the XT earlier this week as my first SLR. I'm pretty impressed with the quality of the pictures (keep in mind this is from a photo newbie). It does feel a bit 'cheap' where the CF slot is. I'm guessing its because of the fact that its hollow there. But still, my last camera was a CoolPix 990 and that felt more sturdy. The only thing I didn't like about the nikon is it seems a bit complicated. Even this SLR seem a bit more intuitive.

Since there seems to be a good amount of 'experts' here. Let me throw in a question - I had originally planned on just the camera body, and got a 28-90mm lense with it. But due to some error on the vendors part, and my rush to get the camera sooner. They got me to agree to a kit for $60 more - which came with the 18-50mm lense. Are these 2 lenses redundant?

Also, anone want to suggest a good book on photography?

No, the 18-50 mm lenses should be considered a must have.

All digital slrs (except for a few high-end cameras you probably won't afford anyway), you have to multiply the focal length by usually 1.5, sometimes 1.6. 28 mm would look like 42 mm which is useless for even normal things. 18 mm is about 27 mm, so with this lens, you can take group pictures and landscape shots.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by viperstrike

If you are starting from scratch (ie, no lenses), why would you chose the D70s over the RebelXT?

1. more solid feel -- the Canons feel "cheapy"
2. superior continuous shooting performance (esp. in raw mode)
3. vastly superior included lens in the kit

Other than that, I'd say they're neck and neck.

[OreoCookie]

Can somebody enlighten me and tell my why Nikon still sells the D100? The D70 (even without s) seems to be superior in many aspects ...

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by tooki

1. more solid feel -- the Canons feel "cheapy"
2. superior continuous shooting performance (esp. in raw mode)
3. vastly superior included lens in the kit

Other than that, I'd say they're neck and neck.

Is the lens with the D50 kit glass or is it plastic like the Canon Rebel lens?

[tooki]

Not sure off the top of my head, but separate from the kit, it's a $300 lens, while Canon's kit lens is just $100 on its own.

tooki

[JustAnOl'Broad]

Wow, that's what I paid for my Epson 750Z; think that was 6 years ago.

Have really enjoyed that camera -but they quit selling cameras soon after.
There is still support for it on their website tho.

[MrForgetable]

some people are disappointed that Nikon hasn't come up with something to go against the 20D. personally, I like the D70 more than the Digital Rebel XT... but I'd take the 20D over all of them. of course, i have no money to spend on any of them, so I may just have to settle with a used original digital rebel with kit lens or something

[TETENAL]

Can you use my existing Nikon lenses with those digital cameras? How do they protect the sensor when you swap the lenses?

[MaxPower2k3]

the sensor isn't protected. I've only got one lens, and thus havn't had to swap lenses, but from what i've read, the best way to swap the lens is to hold the camera body straight down. that way, dust is less likely to settle on the sensor. besides that, just do it quickly.

if you do get dust on the sensor, there are cleaning kits to get it off yourself, or you can take it into a camera store and i think it's pretty cheap to get it done professionally.


edit: Olympus's EVolt DSLR has some sort of ultrasonic vibration thing that supposedly shakes off any dust that settles on the sensor. As far as i know, it's the only camera that has something like that, but i can't say whether it works or not.

[MrForgetable]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Can you use my existing Nikon lenses with those digital cameras? How do they protect the sensor when you swap the lenses?

the sensor will be out in the open, so occasionally dust will settle on the sensor, and at the smaller aperture openings you will be able to see the dust specks.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Is the lens with the D50 kit glass or is it plastic like the Canon Rebel lens?

Even that crappy Canon Lens isn't plastic. Plastic on the outside yes, but not on the inside. The Nikkor is more expensive than the Canon lens, just because it's a Nikkor.

If you are serious about photography then I don't recommend these kit lenses at all.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Can you use my existing Nikon lenses with those digital cameras?

Yes, altough limited. You can't use manual lenses and that's real sad. The lightmeter doesn't work with chipless lenses.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by MrForgetable

some people are disappointed that Nikon hasn't come up with something to go against the 20D. personally, I like the D70 more than the Digital Rebel XT... but I'd take the 20D over all of them. of course, i have no money to spend on any of them, so I may just have to settle with a used original digital rebel with kit lens or something

If you lay hands on both, you know that the D70 is built much sturdier with polycarbonate plastics like the D20 and doesn't have that cheap feel to it. Also some functions (1/500 s flash sync, easy switching between different metering modes, etc.) position it higher than the Rebel XT.

You might complain that `if that's all the difference there is ...', compare the D20 to the Rebel XT. Much of the electronics, including the sensor are identical, so where does your extra money go?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Can you use my existing Nikon lenses with those digital cameras? How do they protect the sensor when you swap the lenses?

What lenses do you have?
Probably you would have to buy additional wide-angle zoom lenses, and for that, the kit lenses of the D70s are fine. Unlike other kit lenses, they are really worth their money.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

What lenses do you have?
Probably you would have to buy additional wide-angle zoom lenses, and for that, the kit lenses of the D70s are fine. Unlike other kit lenses, they are really worth their money.

I own a 35 mm Nikkor and a 135 mm Pentacon that are both manual focus, so they seem to be out.

I don't like the sensor unprotected, so I wait until this problem is solved.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Can you use my existing Nikon lenses with those digital cameras? How do they protect the sensor when you swap the lenses?

Despite what others here have said, you absolutely can use old Nikon lenses on Nikon DSLRs. See http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond70/page2.asp for a list of exact compatibility. (For example, the old manual lenses don't allow auto metering, but they will work in full-manual mode.)

On the Canon, any lens of theirs with the correct mount will work -- in practice, this is all the autofocus lenses, plus a few oddball professional lenses (like the ones with perspective correction) that are manual focus but with the autofocus mount.

As for the sensor... remember that between the opening in the body and the sensor, there's still the mirror and the shutter, neither of which will be retracted when you swap lenses.

tooki

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Even that crappy Canon Lens isn't plastic. Plastic on the outside yes, but not on the inside. The Nikkor is more expensive than the Canon lens, just because it's a Nikkor.

If you are serious about photography then I don't recommend these kit lenses at all.

I agree that neither lens is an "enthusiast" lens, but the Nikon kit lens is noticeably superior to the Canon -- you ARE getting something for the money. For one thing, it's sharper, for seconds, the Nikon kit lens uses a "Silent Wave" motor, the same thing as Canon's "Ultrasonic Motor". In any case, those motors are quieter and faster -- and more costly. The lens included with the Rebel/Rebel XT is not USM. The Nikon kit lens also has a metal lens mount, as opposed to the Canon kit lens's plastic. The Nikon lens is 18-70mm, while the Canon lens is only 18-55. Even more importantly, the Canon lens is appreciably slower: f/3.5-5.6, while the Nikon is f/3.5-4.5, despite its longer maximum focal length.

tooki

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by tooki

As for the sensor... remember that between the opening in the body and the sensor, there's still the mirror and the shutter, neither of which will be retracted when you swap lenses.

I can't remember since I never owned a digital SLR. That's why I'm asking.

So there is a shutter to protect the sensor? I had assumed a digital SLR doesn't have a shutter since one wouldn't be necessary for a digital sensor. And how does the LCD viewer work when there is a closed shutter?

[tooki]

Almost all digital cameras have shutters, and in DSLRs, the mechanism is exactly the same as a film SLR except that there's a digital sensor there in place of film.

There are two types of digital sensors, CCD and CMOS. Only Canon (AFAIK) uses CMOS sensors, but they are great sensors quality-wise. But CMOS sensors cannot be used for live video, only for single images, which is why they are never used on point-and-shoot digital cameras. CCDs are the more common sensors, commonly used for both still and moving images. But to get a quality picture, you still need a shutter (even video cameras use shutters!). For one thing, you need to manage the amount of light hitting the sensor in an exposure. Second, only a shutter can "freeze" an image, like you might want in sports photography, or to capture the individual drops of water in a waterfall.

As for viewfinders: in non-SLR digital cameras, the shutter is always open until you actually press the shutter release. Then it closes, re-opens for the set shutter time, reads the image off the sensor, and then stays open to go back into video mode. (This is why non-SLR digital cameras have high shutter lag.)

In DSLRs, the LCD cannot function as a live viewfinder; indeed, the shutter is closed. In these cameras, you use the optical viewfinder, and then after you take the picture, you can see it on the LCD. (This is one reason why DSLR batteries last so long: the LCD is only on a small fraction of the time.)

tooki

[tooki]

(Oh yeah, little piece of trivia: Q: who helped invent the CCD image sensor. A: Why, our old friend Gil Amelio, who ran Apple for a little while!)

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by tooki

In DSLRs, the LCD cannot function as a live viewfinder; indeed, the shutter is closed. In these cameras, you use the optical viewfinder

Oh, that sucks, since � if I'm not mistaken � the image in the optical viewer is even smaller than in small picture SLRs.
I didn't know that. Thanks a lot for clarifying!

[tooki]

Indeed, the live LCD preview is an advantage of non-SLR digital cameras. In some ways, the high-end non-SLR digitals, such as the Nikon Coolpix 8800, the Sony DSC-F828, and Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ20, offer the best of both worlds -- almost SLR-like quality and speed, but with the advantages of pure-digital. In fact, most of the high-end digital non-SLRs have better lenses built in to them than the DSLRs include. (For example, the Panasonic model above has a Leica 12x zoom, f/2.8, with optical image stabilization -- in a $500 camera. Even if they made a similar lens for an SLR, it'd be prohibitively expensive -- in the thousands of dollars for the lens alone.)

I tell people that right now, the digital camera world is really divided into two camps: the models that are descended from film cameras, and the models that are descended from video cameras.

Most digital cameras are the latter. In the high-end Sony models, this is patently obvious: they use the same batteries, have the same silent zooms, have the same infrared night vision, and have similar menus to Sony camcorders. In one of Sony's most recent digital cameras, it has a mode where, when you press the shutter, it takes the picture, plus saves 5 seconds of video before and after the picture.

Really only the DSLRs are descended from film photography, and that is why they behave just like film cameras, with the inherent advantages and disadvantages.

Overall, the only advantages of DSLRs right now are these: 1) being able to swap out lenses (which most amateurs won't do, they'll never go beyond the kit lens) and 2) superior image quality thanks to large image sensors.

If the non-SLR cameras were to be fitted with large image sensors that have noise levels comparable to the SLRs, they'd be the best of both worlds. (Of course, i do realize that it is the small size of the image sensors that allows those cameras to offer amazing lenses at low cost... sigh...)

tooki

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I can't remember since I never owned a digital SLR. That's why I'm asking.

So there is a shutter to protect the sensor? I had assumed a digital SLR doesn't have a shutter since one wouldn't be necessary for a digital sensor. And how does the LCD viewer work when there is a closed shutter?

Only Olympus cameras have an ultrasonic cleaning mechanism AFAIK. But since all other bodies including all professional Canon and Nikon gear, I wouldn't worry too much.

Nikon lenses reportedly do work in a crippled all manual mode, but probably you won't need the 35 mm lens anymore.

Originally Posted by tooki

There are two types of digital sensors, CCD and CMOS. Only Canon (AFAIK) uses CMOS sensors, but they are great sensors quality-wise. But CMOS sensors cannot be used for live video, only for single images, which is why they are never used on point-and-shoot digital cameras. CCDs are the more common sensors, commonly used for both still and moving images. But to get a quality picture, you still need a shutter (even video cameras use shutters!). For one thing, you need to manage the amount of light hitting the sensor in an exposure. Second, only a shutter can "freeze" an image, like you might want in sports photography, or to capture the individual drops of water in a waterfall.

The latest D2x has a CMOS sensor. (The D2H still uses a proprietary Nikon sensor.)