[james9490]

Originally Posted by lavar78

I'm a geek and I prefer Apple's mouse. It's so much easier on my hand. I also have a Logitech MX518 (an excellent mouse), but the Apple Pro Mouse is much more comfortable for me. Again, I think right-clicking is overrated. I don't mind using Ctrl since I Opt-click almost as much and Cmd-click even more. Besides, I use Quicksilver, so my hand is already on/near the keyboard.

The problem with the "Ctrl + click" approach is that it requires you to switch between two mental modes. Mouse button is mouse button. Click is click. It's a matter of choosing left or right. "Ctrl + click," on the other hand, requires two different motor skills combined and coordinated, making things more complex.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I've found that people who don't use computers a lot and don't right-click extensively (i.e. aren't geeks) often actually prefer Apple's mouse. I can't really figure out why, since I am a geek and prefer Logitech, but the common folk do seem to like Apple's mouse design.

The answer is easy: There is not enough information available for Macintosh novice users, and they are usually uninformed of the existence of the second mouse button and how convenient it can be. Since the default Apple mouse is one-button, they are left with less productive setup.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by lavar78

I just tried the Mighty Mouse yesterday for the first time. The scroll ball is fantastic! It's better than any scroll wheel I've used. I could right-click easily, but I'd probably keep it as a one-button mouse anyway. I personally spend much more time cmd-clicking than ctrl-clicking. The side buttons were the only disappointment. They're awkward.

Finally, the honest answer. The side buttons on Mighty Mouse is a huge issue, and it deserves a complete recall and redesign of the product.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by just a poster

It's amazing that a company with Apple's industrial design talent doesn't "get" the mouse, the most basic user interface device in computing.

Everybody at Apple needs to get a Logitech MX1000, MX900, and the last-generation Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer (not the current generation one, MS really screwed up the center button when the made the side-to-side scroll wheel action). IMO, that is the state of the art in mouse design today.

It is truly a sad state of affairs when I purchase all-Apple equipment (even my AMD boxes are hooked up to Apple displays) yet I've replaced every Apple mouse I have ever purchased since they switched to USB.

That's the right response to the Mighty Mouse problem. I applaud your honesty in this matter.

Apple must recall all Mighty Mouse and redesign the whole thing from scratch if they want to release another mouse. In the mean time Mac users should go out and buy one of those excellent mice common among PC users.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by loki74

MM is not a perfect design. It is not a mouse I would consider using. It does not meet my needs as a graphic designer/3D animator. Does that make it the single worst mouse in the world?? No.

I never said that it is the worst mouse in the world simply because it is not something I would consider using. I said all along that it is THE worst mouse ever because of its user interface and how Apple has imposed it upon users, advertising it as something works so well for novice users and alike. Its hidden "button" approach is just so bad that it confuses so many novice users. It is bad because we as the IT industry want to make sure we give them a positive first impression of computer user interface (hence encouraging to adopt technologies positively and learn how to use computer) yet Mighty Mouse introduces more confusion and deviation. The whole thing simply adds one more different interface behavior we shouldn't have to deal with.

Originally Posted by loki74

I, and pretty much everyone else on the NN, am willing to concede and admit to the flaws that Apple and its products have. Like I said, MM is not something I would want. But it is not a terrible design, and frankly would serve me better than a one-button device.

Yeah, and that's simply because one-button mouse doesn't even have an extra button!! Something is better than nothing, right?

Originally Posted by loki74

So here's what I see happening: MS fanboys like yourself use the fact that the Mac mice do not have a right click feature. It's a card I've seen played many many times by types like you as a reason why the Macistosh platform sucks. So finally, Apple creates a mouse with two button funtionality. If you were being objective and consistent, you would recognize that this is at least an attempt to move in the right direction, even though it has X, Y and Z wrong with it. (Good intention, bad delivery)

Bad implementation is worse than not doing anything wrong. Can't you see that?

Objective, informative discussion is not and never was the intention commonly held by you and Mac users in this forum. You guys want to have a pissing & bullying contest. You guys want to exclude anyone who disagrees with the rest of the Mac fanboys. Okay, sure, fine, whatever, I can see where this would be entertaining to a bunch of Mac fanatics. You guys label me as troll and call me names, and THAT is dispicable.

You Mac users disgust me.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by james9490

Yes, I do have credibility. ...

Not here, you don't.

Originally Posted by james9490

... Just look at how immature most of people are in their responses. All they do is to call me names, label me as troll and paste those offensive graphics. ...

Considering your own behavior throughout this discussion - that would wurprise you ... how exactly? And since you mentioned graphics, I got another one, too ...

Originally Posted by james9490

... It seems like they call someone troll so long as he/she doesn't agree with the rest of Macintosh crowd. And right, that's called credible response.......

Ooooh, poor you. Look at it this way - just like yourself, some of us are throroughly enjoying this thread - myself included.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by james9490

The manner of the Mac community is all time low.

Hey, I agree with "James the troll"!

I am an expert engineer

What???





edit: Damnit, my second post in this stupid thread

[esXXI]

It just keeps going and going and going and...

[james9490]

Originally Posted by effgee

Not here, you don't.

Considering your own behavior throughout this discussion - that would wurprise you ... how exactly? And since you mentioned graphics, I got another one, too ...

Ooooh, poor you. Look at it this way - just like yourself, some of us are throroughly enjoying this thread - myself included.

You made my point that Mac community manner has been all time low. Very childish, but thank you for making my point. Look yourself in a mirror before posting another offensive and rude post.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by esXXI

It just keeps going and going and going and...

Windows Vista is just around the corner (coming out next year) and it will run circle around OS X Tiger.

Be ready for that!

[budster101]

Wow, you are pathetic...

Windows Vista? Which version? They are going to have 3 different licenses... way to go Microsoft! Confuse your customers even more than they already are.

Vista is around the corner, if you mean 2007 by around the corner. By then, they will be attempting to compete with Leopard. You don't know anything do you?

Come on, own up to it, YOU ARE Paul Thurrott, lapdog for Microsoft.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by james9490

I am NOT a troll although I've been labeled as one. People even disregard all my response and call me names. One guy even sent me a very rude private message. The manner of the Mac community is all time low.

All right, I will try one last time, though no doubt you will once again ignore it:

People have NOT disregarded your responses, or your arguments (weak as they tend to be).

YOU, on the other hand, have consistently disregarded by far the greater part of the (valid) arguments against you.

And, apart from constantly bickering about how everybody is always picking on you (yes, that's a Bloodhound Gang reference), and occasionally retorting to calling others names yourself (essentially stripping your complaints of others doing the same to you of any justification they might ever have had), you have been the person in here who has consistently provided the lowest amount of seriuos (i.e. valid) arguments vs. number of posts ratio.


And, for what it's worth, even if you did have proper (i.e. valid) arguments in your repertoire, coming to a Macintosh forum and making nothing but pro-Windows/pro-Microsoft, anti-Mac/anti-Apple posts (from what I've seen so far, not a single of your posts has been outside this frame) <b>does</b> make you a troll, whether you intend to be one or not. The definition of a troll (in this sense), according to the dictionary, is, “[a person] posting on the Internet intending to provoke an indignant response in the reader”, which describes you very precisely.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by james9490

You made my point that Mac community manner has been all time low. Very childish, but thank you for making my point. Look yourself in a mirror before posting another offensive and rude post.

**looksinmirror**

Now that I looked in the mirror (it didn't even crack!!), can I go back to making fun of you? Please? Pretty please? Here, have some fudge - I'll spring for the pickle, too.

[analogika]

Fifth time:

Originally Posted by analogika

2) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A DISABLED SECOND BUTTON *NOT* PROVIDING ACCESS TO AN UNNECESSARY (BY DESIGN) HIDDEN INTERFACE FEATURE IS "BAD INTERFACE.


3) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW CONTEXTUAL MENUS ARE *NOT* HIDDEN INTERFACE.

[budster101]

He won't respond to anyone that has given him reason to reconsider his failed logic, and wonders why anyone discounts him as a fool, an amateur, and a troll.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by budster101

He won't respond to anyone that has given him reason to reconsider his failed logic, and wonders why anyone discounts him as a fool, an amateur, and a troll.

What failed logic? There are several people who actually agreed with me on this MM issue.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

Fifth time:

I've already answered those questions. Stop nagging me.

[budster101]

If you could stay on topic. This thread was about MM but turned into you bashing OS X... those questions.

You can't answer any of them. Go ahead and address at least 'analogika's' questions if you can, Mr. Expert.

10 pages and a few people agree with you, but in 10 pages, that means what again?... right.
Next, you'll say Windows is more secure than OS X...

[budster101]

'we' are nagging YOU? ha-ha... asnwer them. You have NOT.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

That's the right response to the Mighty Mouse problem. I applaud your honesty in this matter.

Apple must recall all Mighty Mouse and redesign the whole thing from scratch if they want to release another mouse. In the mean time Mac users should go out and buy one of those excellent mice common among PC users.

"Apple must recall all Mighty Mouse" is a bit extreme. Just because james9490 says so!

I'm now an owner of a MM, and I'm very happy with it. I like it much more than my MS Intellimouse Explorer. The scroll ball is awesome. And the right-click thing, it doesn't bother me at all. My wife, who is a novice, loves it too.

There you go, real life users who like it. I don't want them to recall it. What I would like is a software update so I can assign different functions to buttons in different applications. For example, in Firefox, I'd like to eliminate horizontal scrolling, because FF interprets this as a back and forward button. Does so on my trackpad as well. It's annoying.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

I've already answered those questions.

No you have not.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows Vista is just around the corner (coming out next year) and it will run circle around OS X Tiger.

Be ready for that!

Windows Vista, Longhorn, whatever it's called now, has been coming out next year for at least two years. I'll believe it when I see it.

By the time it's out, Leopard will be out.

But you are trying to compare Apples to unreleased operating systems. MS is well known for promoting features that they don't end up having. But to say that an OS released next year will be better than one released 6 months ago is like saying Leopard is going to be better than Windows 95. Duh.

BTW, could you start at thread about Vista and tell me what great new features it's going to have that will make it better than Tiger? Because I honestly can't see it making me want to switch. OS X is elegant, Windows is clunky.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

What failed logic? There are several people who actually agreed with me on this MM issue.

Listen, I have said that there are issues with the MM. But it's definitely not the worst thing ever. It's not even difficult to use. And being that it is an add-on product, I don't see the problems bothering many users. They will be buying it to have the scroll ball and the right button.

Is it the best mouse ever? I don't think so. Could use wireless. The side button should be easier to presss. But not having physical buttons doesn't make it a bad mouse.

The Puck is the worst mouse ever.

[budster101]

"Windows Vista is better than OS X Tiger"

I threw up in my mouth a little.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

By the way Apple is not considered as "one of the consumer electronics-design industry's pioneering companies." It is actually Microsoft, SONY, and Samsung.

Well touché. BTW, what consumer electronics does M$ design again?

What did Sony computers look like before the iMac, or any computer for that matter?

If you want to be known as something other than a troll then you should start by not acting like a troll.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

The answer is easy: There is not enough information available for Macintosh novice users, and they are usually uninformed of the existence of the second mouse button and how convenient it can be. Since the default Apple mouse is one-button, they are left with less productive setup.

I'm talking about Windows users who use a Mac, not people who sprang forth out of the earth and had never before touched a computer.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

What failed logic? There are several people who actually agreed with me on this MM issue.

Ahh yes, the old "someone slightly agreed with me therefore all my baseless arguments have validity" statement.

Try actually responding to analogika about the original argument you started 8 pages ago instead of constantly trying to assert that the Mac OS is inferior to your beloved bloatware.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows Vista is just around the corner (coming out next year) and it will run circle around OS X Tiger.

Be ready for that!

It will run just one circle around Tiger?

I heard the same thing about ME, what a laughing stock that malware was. Same thing about XP too, to bad spyware and adware through IE can cripple an entire OS.

I'll be ready, with my 6 year old G4 that still runs like a top.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

That's the right response to the Mighty Mouse problem. I applaud your honesty in this matter.

Apple must recall all Mighty Mouse and redesign the whole thing from scratch if they want to release another mouse. In the mean time Mac users should go out and buy one of those excellent mice common among PC users.

I already own a M$ intellimouse explorer, and have been using it for years.

Do you even have a point anymore?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

By the way Apple is not considered as "one of the consumer electronics-design industry's pioneering companies." It is actually Microsoft, SONY, and Samsung.

Really? Hmm. Who chose those three? Is there a list somewhere you'd like to share?

Because Apple has consistantly won awards for its product's design year after year. And they truly pioneer. Before the iMac, all computers were beige or black, and definitely boring.

Originally Posted by james9490

I am NOT a troll although I've been labeled as one. People even disregard all my response and call me names. One guy even sent me a very rude private message. The manner of the Mac community is all time low.

Well, you disregard almost everything that I have had to say. You've never responded to my points. I haven't called you any names. Except james9490.

We're on the 10th page, and you still can't respond to the basic points I made at the beginning of this thing.

Originally Posted by james9490

(Laughing) Who said that I was a graphic designer? I am an expert engineer, not a "designer."

Well, I like how you put "designer" in quotes, as if it's derogetory. Well, I'm a designer, proud of it. Good at it too.

What, exactly, are you an "expert engineer" in? Specifically, what field, and where did you get your degree?

[budster101]

Expert Engineer, what is an Expert "Enginneer?" Is that like an Enginer? Or rather are you a Vaginneer?

I thought he was a "Useability Expert"? He changes it all the time. Tomorrow he'll be a fireman, or a policeman.

I bet he has his MCSE books on a shelf somewhere but he never opened them.

MCSE stands for Microsoft Can't Stop Everyone... by buying and shelving better technology. Look at APPLE.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by budster101

Expert Engineer, what is an Expert "Enginneer?" Is that like an Enginer?

Perhaps someone who 'engineers' experts (i.e. stands by a conveyor belt and puts in the various body parts in [mostly] the right places)?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by budster101

Expert Engineer, what is an Expert "Enginneer?" Is that like an Enginer? Or rather are you a Vaginneer?

I thought he was a "Useability Expert"? He changes it all the time. Tomorrow he'll be a fireman, or a policeman.

I'm an astronaut! I specialize in the usability of funky little foodpaste tubes.

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows Vista is just around the corner (coming out next year) and it will run circle around OS X Tiger.

Be ready for that!

I'll believe it when I see it. That's if it does come out next year and doesn't have any more "features" scrapped.

Oh by the way, have you seen the system requirements for Vista? If that doesn't scream "bloatware," I don't know what else to call it.

[besson3c]

James, if you came here to "tell us all like it is", I guess you haven't done a very good job. We're on page 10, and still no converts.

What are you hoping to accomplish here? Clearly, you aren't interested in an actual conversation... obviously, you have everything all figured out, right?

[budster101]

I wonder if all those people who have to upgrade their PeeCees to run Vista will just buy Macs instead?

OS X comes in one flavor... and it's very tasty.

James: Care to explain the reasoning behind the 3 types of Vista that will come out? Why 3 different licensing for end users in the marketplace?

Going to answer me? Probably not.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

I wonder if all those people who have to upgrade their PeeCees to run Vista will just buy Macs instead?

OS X comes in one flavor... and it's very tasty.

James: Care to explain the reasoning behind the 3 types of Vista that will come out? Why 3 different licensing for end users in the marketplace?

Going to answer me? Probably not.

I wouldn't be surprised if the different flavors have something to do with the EU trial, although it's yet to be seen whether any of the Vistas will ship w/o WMP, or whatever they are supposed to do.

Anybody hear what the latest status of this case is? I've sort of fallen out of touch...

Not to nitpick, but there are actually 2 flavors of OS X, although I think it couldn't be any clearer as to which OS is designed for the home user.

XP Pro/Home/Server wouldn't be that bad a setup if Home wasn't so crippled, and missing basic things like ADS networking (required to use on many University campuses).

[budster101]

XServer and OS X. There is no two version for home use. Just one that comes on every computer.

[Weyland-Yutani]

I have not liked Apple mice since.. well. The ADB II mouse IIRC. That one was good. The current mouse and MM are the same ergonomically and that I don't like. Clicking and lifting is nasty IMO.

I like the MS intellimouse explorer (but not the name it is sillier than mighty mouse)

I'll be sure to see if Vista isn't better than OS X 10.5 when it is released. From what I've seen so far it looks good.

I use the Mac because today it is the best tool available, but tomorrow who knows?

That said, james19.. has to cool down and get off his high horse about what is better etc. This is a discussion forum where ideas and opinions are exchanged. If you want to preach james, may I suggest a blog or a website?

Regardless, I won't be buying Apple's MM, Logitech and MS are doing a better job as is. IMO.

cheers

W-Y

[loki74]

Originally Posted by james9490

Objective, informative discussion is not and never was the intention commonly held by you and Mac users in this forum. You guys want to have a pissing & bullying contest.

Yeah... um, we're not the ones who started this discussion. You opened the floor, its YOUR job to make sure YOU open it with GOOD INTENTIONS. You did NOT.

Originally Posted by james9490

You guys want to exclude anyone who disagrees with the rest of the Mac fanboys. Okay, sure, fine, whatever, I can see where this would be entertaining to a bunch of Mac fanatics.

Um, negative. Did you read my post at all??

Originally Posted by loki74

I am very open to discussion regarding Apple's flaws. There are ups and there are downs, just like any system. I would welcome an earnest, serious skeptic who had honest questions regarding Mighty Mouse. A person who saw something, had an impression, and wanted a second opinion

In that passage it is clear that we are not (or at the very least I am not) fanatics or zealots. We are defending ourselves. You act like you have been assaulted, like we hunted you down and started flaming you. No, I'll tell you what happened. You came here, started hotly dissing us and our platform, clearly not looking for objective discussion.

So don't act like you have some right to not be insulted after the rank, unmitigated, and decidedly inflamatory remarks you started throwing around in here. YOU came in, YOU picked a fight. And now you're whining that you got one? Grow up.

Before you go around revising and repeating what I say to you back at me, make sure you can actually use my arguments against me. In this case, you can't. Because I didn't start anything against you, and neither did anyone else. You started a thread to troll people, you picked a fight, and thats what you got. I am asking you once more to please leave.

[esXXI]

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows Vista is just around the corner (coming out next year) and it will run circle around OS X Tiger.

Be ready for that!

Except Vista isn't going up against Tiger, it's going up against Leopard. Which no-one knows anything about at this point.

It always makes me laugh when people go "Dude! Longhorn [as it was called then] will blow away Panther!!!" and then that changed to "Dude! Vista will blow away Tiger!!!"

But nice fanboi-ism comparing an unreleased OS with one shipping right now.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by esXXI

Except Vista isn't going up against Tiger, it's going up against Leopard. Which no-one knows anything about at this point.

Tiger was just released not too long ago, and there is no information about when Leopard will come out. My guess is that it probably won't come out until at least June next year, and there is a good chance that next major Service Pack for XP will come out before that.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by loki74

I am asking you once more to please leave.

What gives you the right to tell me that?

[Warung]

Originally Posted by james9490

My guess is that it probably won't come out until at least June next year, and there is a good chance that next major Service Pack for XP will come out before that.

Leopard is going to come out at around the time Vista will be released...probably Q3 06.

It's going to be OS X and then some, while Vista is going to be the biggest bloat-, cripple-, spy- and nagware ever to have been conceived.

How many different versions, - 14? Holy Isaac Newton on a pogostick...installing the anti-viral protection is probably going to take 4-10 hours.

[besson3c]

Another thing that a lot of people don't seem to realize: it will take a long time to complete the transition to where a sizable percentage of people are running Vista.

Now that Vista finally has a modern system of privilege assignment where applications aren't given free reign over the system (the fact that XP requires administrator usage for so much stuff, and being assigned as an admin setups this opportunity is nothing short of INSANITY, and is always the stopping point in conversations where people shill XP's security), we'll finally start to see Microsoft approach having a secure operating system.

However, I'd be willing to bet that this new model breaks many applications, and that it will take a good while (possiblly years) for specialized, custom apps to be rewritten to support Vista.


James, are you even aware how completely INSANELY insecure XP is in this respect? In OS X, administrators are now roughly as privileged as administrators will be in Vista. In XP currently, administrators are as privileged as the root user in Unix, an account that is intentionally disabled in OS X by default.

Basically, you are forced to run as root to do your day-to-day stuff, this is at least partially why XP is so incredibly virus/spyware prone. This is no different than XP Server either. Sorry, but any operating system given the title "Server" in today's day and age needs to live up to this name and provide a modern level of security.

Vista will have all this, but for now it is an unshipping product. Microsoft apologists do not have a leg to stand on in this regard. Windows is the only active operating system that is based in security models of the 1980s.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

Tiger was just released not too long ago, and there is no information about when Leopard will come out. My guess is that it probably won't come out until at least June next year, and there is a good chance that next major Service Pack for XP will come out before that.

So a Windows XP with bug fixes will be in a much better position to compete with a Mac OS X Tiger that will undoubtedly have another three or four "Service Packs" (i.e. point-updates) under its belt by then?

And this changes the situation between Vista and Leopard how? ... Not at all? ... Oh, you're just blowing smoke?

Gotcha.

Oh, and btw:

Originally Posted by analogika

2) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A DISABLED SECOND BUTTON *NOT* PROVIDING ACCESS TO AN UNNECESSARY (BY DESIGN) HIDDEN INTERFACE FEATURE IS "BAD INTERFACE.


3) PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW CONTEXTUAL MENUS ARE *NOT* HIDDEN INTERFACE.

Thank you in advance for your kind cooperation.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by james9490

What gives you the right to tell me that?

Read it again. Ask ≠ tell.

We can't tell you to leave. Well, we can, but you're under no obligation to do so just because we tell you to. I can tell you to turn into a large yellow canary too, but I'd wager it won't happen any more or less than if I didn't.

We can, however, ask you to leave. Not only because you are, despite the number of people who are actually enjoying these threads of yours, having a negative effect on the forums by making inflammatory posts and seeking fights; but also because, if you really are not a troll [by intent], as you claim, it's not worth it to stay at a forum where everyone, with no more than two or three possible exceptions, sees and treats you like a troll. Unless of course you have some sort of masochistic fetish of being called a troll and asked to stop spouting inaccuracies, passing opinions off as facts, etc. You might, I don't know. But if you don't, just do yourself, and us, a favour and remove forums.macnn.com from your browser (IE, no doubt) history, and replace it with a Microsoft-centered forum where you'll be much happier, instead.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Oisín

Read it again. Ask ≠ tell.

We can't tell you to leave. Well, we can, but you're under no obligation to do so just because we tell you to. I can tell you to turn into a large yellow canary too, but I'd wager it won't happen any more or less than if I didn't.

We can, however, ask you to leave. Not only because you are, despite the number of people who are actually enjoying these threads of yours, having a negative effect on the forums by making inflammatory posts and seeking fights; but also because, if you really are not a troll [by intent], as you claim, it's not worth it to stay at a forum where everyone, with no more than two or three possible exceptions, sees and treats you like a troll. Unless of course you have some sort of masochistic fetish of being called a troll and asked to stop spouting inaccuracies, passing opinions off as facts, etc. You might, I don't know. But if you don't, just do yourself, and us, a favour and remove forums.macnn.com from your browser (IE, no doubt) history, and replace it with a Microsoft-centered forum where you'll be much happier, instead.

Anticipated response:

"You guys can't handle the truth, embrace reality"

(or some variant).

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Anticipated response:

"You guys can't handle the truth, embrace reality"

(or some variant).

Sadly, that's probably frighteningly close.

[brokenjago]

<3 James