[analogika]

w00+!™

[chris v]

Dude, you toatlly PWN page 5.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by MathewM

I tried out the 'Mighty Mouse' and IMO it is indeed one of Apple's worst designs. It's basically what I thought an Apple designed two button mouse would be like but that doesn't make it good. I know I"m in the minority but I actually like Apple's one-button mouse. It feels 'right' as long as you're sitting upright and you use your keyboard for all of the Apple key functions.

There is no keyboard command to stand in for a nice scroll wheel. (Or several other commands in some badly behaved programs, QUARK.)

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Oisín

I can only claim extreme fatigue. I have no other excuse. I am in shock.

So was I.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

There is no keyboard command to stand in for a nice scroll wheel.

What's wrong with the up and down arrows?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by lavar78

What's wrong with the up and down arrows?

Did you try that in a text editor?

Originally Posted by james9490

Not quite so. When you have your grandma over the phone, she has a Mighty Mouse, and you need to teach her how to do "right-click,".

Then why the heck does grandma have a Mighty Mouse. More likely, she is using the one button mouse her Mac came with.

Sheesh! I would think an "expert" in computer usability would know which devices would be used by which users.

That's like saying all audio editing applications have horrible interfaces because Grandma doesn't understand what a waveform represents.

[teszeract]

[QUOTE=james9490]Objection: Windows is NOT insecure... Have you installed anti-virus software? Have you updated it? Have you scanned your system for spyware? Is Windows Firewall set up properly so all ports are closed down?


What is this things? Help for me to unerstand, plis. I am only dubleclicking stuffs.

Originally Posted by james9490

Objection: Windows is NOT insecure. Vast majority of Windows security "flaws" come from simple user errors. Have you installed anti-virus software? Have you updated it? Have you scanned your system for spyware? Is Windows Firewall set up properly so all ports are closed down? It takes hell of a lot more effort to break in an average Windows machine than to steal a bunch of credit card receipts from a cash register.

Aaaah ha ha ha! Wow that's funny. Grandma can't learn to use a mouse, but she can sure configure her firewall and run spyware detection.

In the mean time look at Apple. They aren't any better. A series of Security Updates have been released, and yet the thing is still not 100% secure. I bet they will find 1,000 more security flows and keep patching those every month until it's time for them to milk their customers again with OS X 10.5.

Hmm... let's count the number of known successful attacks on Mac OS X. Hmmm... that would be zero.

How many on Windows? Hmm.... that would be millions, and that was just last week. And most due to flaws in Windows, not user error. Funny how a usability expert defines not closing security holes in the Windows OS and IE as "user error." It sure would be a whole lot easier for Grandma if those holes were plugged (or not there in the first place) before they could be exploited.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

There is no keyboard command to stand in for a nice scroll wheel.

Except page up/page down. I find it much easier (physically) than the repetitive motion of scrolling with the wheel. My middle finger gets sore after a while of scrolling large documents with a scroll wheek.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Did you try that in a text editor?

No, but I never use a scroll wheel in a text editor either.

[budster101]

What is the count for Micrsoft Windows viruses? I think it was 90,000 last count.

Zero for OS X. 30 for OS X entirely.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Millennium

See, I believe the opposite. I think this is some MIS major who thinks he knows everything about computers and UI design because he took a VB course in his freshman year and knows how to use PowerPoint.

Having read this again, I think I need to clarify this some. I have nothing against Management of Information Services as a major. It's an important thing to know. However, while MIS is closely related to technology, it's not technical in and of itself. MIS majors are generally taught the basics of some technological disciplines, but this is done with an eye towards making them better managers; it gives them a basic understanding of what their workers do. The tech courses soon end, replaced with training in other things which managers need to know.

It's quite possible for an MIS major to become very skilled with technology, equal to or better than most programmers. However, those skills will need to be gained in electives or outside the classroom, because a core MIS curriculum is not designed for that. It's designed to fill a different niche.

So then, why did I pick on MIS majors? Unfortunately, it's a fairly common problem that after one or two courses, people think they know everything about a field. This is true for most early Computer Science majors as well, but they outgrow it soon enough as they get more training and realize just how much more there is to know. MIS managers -indeed, educated managers in any field- seldom get any training beyond those basics. As a result, many of them come to think they know everything about the field they manage, or at least behave as though they knew everything. This would be funny -Dilbert comes to mind- if it didn't cause so many problems for the workers. I suspect that the poster is just such a person; he thinks he knows everything, when in fact he only knows enough to be dangerous.

[davesimondotcom]

OK, so I heard back from Tog, and this is what he has to say about the MM:

I have played with it, after which I got rid of it. The right button has serious problems, only one of which you've mentioned. The fact that you have to lift the left finger simultaneous with lower the right is far more serious. The ball size was unusual, but I actually liked it. You could feel the clicks and the small size meant that it was pretty easy to get a lot of movement without having to drag your finger repeatedly across a larger surface. I didn't test it on a variety of users, however, so I don't know how well it would test on people with varying abilities.

Notice what Tog didn't like was not anything to do with the right button being hidden. He makes a good point about having to lift the left finger while clicking with the right.

And Tog likes the scroll ball.

So, jame9490, now we know from the UI expert. A real one. Certified. And Tog didn't think it was the worst ever, nor the best ever. It has it's strengths and it's flaws.

I reiterate that I have not used a MM yet, so I have no firm opinion on whether it's good or bad. But I don't think it's the worst thing ever.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I reiterate that I have not used a MM yet, so I have no firm opinion on whether it's good or bad. But I don't think it's the worst thing ever.

I've come to like the MM a lot. It was only ok at first, and I'm not big on the side buttons, but I really like the scroll wheel and being able to click with my whole hand.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

Zero for OS X. 30 for OS X entirely.

Uhm, get your stats right, buddy.

-t

[budster101]

Well then, post some stats. buddy.

http://www.masternewmedia.org/2003/1...d_security.htm

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

Well then, post some stats. buddy.
http://www.masternewmedia.org/2003/1...d_security.htm

Ok, so what did you mean by that:

Originally Posted by budster101

Zero for OS X. 30 for OS X entirely.

Seems contradictory.



-t

[Atomic Rooster]

This thread is a sad commentary on MacNN and some member(s).

[Chuckit]

More so than most threads?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

This thread is a sad commentary on MacNN and some member(s).

Coming from YOU ?!?!

-t

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Coming from YOU ?!?!

-t

No. somebody else.


Jeez don't put me on Bumstead101's side!

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

Yes, it is good for everyone. Many people complain about Microsoft monopoly, but it is actually good for consumers because it standardize the whole industry and have one big platform that everyone can play together. It's stupid that there are so many different browsers with different rendering behaviors for each browser. Things would be a lot more simplified if we have to design for just one browser (Internet Explorer).

Just for saying this you deserve a swift kick in the nuts. I've seen IE ruin more computers than hurricane damage.

[RAILhead]

It's been a long time snce I hear anyone say "a swift kick in the nuts." Thanks fo the giggle.

[Atomic Rooster]

"Here I come to save the day. Mighty Mouse is on his way".

[MindFad]

IBP6

[budster101]

Oh I just saw that....

30 viruses for OS X 10.0 totally, except for OS X Tiger where there are none. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

My bad.

[DeathMan]

I could use a kick in the nuts. Fortunately, for the MM, it sounds like its biggest problem can be solved with a software update. (the finger lifting thing).

I would like a scrolling mechanism that doesn't require lifting my finger in such a repetitive way. Something like the nipple found on IBM thinkpads could well work like this scroll wheel. The further you push, the faster it would scrool. I don't get why this hasn't been developed. Maybe there is more to it.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

I could use a kick in the nuts. Fortunately, for the MM, it sounds like its biggest problem can be solved with a software update. (the finger lifting thing).

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how they've implemented things.

It's possible, for example, that the left-versus-right click behavior is implemented in hardware, and that the Mighty Mouse software on the Mac just interprets both of them as a left-click unless you've told it not to. If someone has a Windows PC and a Mighty Mouse, we can test this. Plug the MM into the PC and try to right-click something. Does it work as a right-click, or does Windows only see a left-click? If it works as a right-click then the behavior is implemented in hardware, and so it probably can't be updated.

Also, as for the finger-lifting thing, how can the mouse tell if you mean a left-click or a right-click, other than if you've lifted your finger off the left "button"? The mouse seems to be touch-sensitive rather than pressure-sensitive, so it can't just tell that you're clicking "harder" on the right side. If this is the case, then we're dealing with a hardware design flaw in the Mighty Mouse (namely, that it uses touch sensors where pressure sensors would be more appropriate) and it can't be fixed without a new revision of the mouse itself.

I would like a scrolling mechanism that doesn't require lifting my finger in such a repetitive way. Something like the nipple found on IBM thinkpads could well work like this scroll wheel. The further you push, the faster it would scrool. I don't get why this hasn't been developed. Maybe there is more to it.

My guess is that it has to do with the fact that most mice implement a third button by clicking the scroll wheel/ball/pad/whatever. You can't do that with a trackstick, because you already have to push the trackstick just to indicate movement. This makes it very hard (if not impossible) to determine whether the user means to scroll or to click. You could make it to that only clicking straight down (inward? It depends on how the mouse is curved) causes the middle-click, but this would be pretty fiddly, particularly on a curved mouse, because most users don't apply pressure straight down when clicking on mouse buttons. They press down and forward instead, or sometimes down and back depending on the shape of the mouse. This doesn't make a difference on regular buttons, but if you try to integrate a scrolling mechanism then it becomes problematic.

My favorite scroll mechanism is Edenware's Scrollability, but it only worked in OS9. Although Catchy Software's MaxiMice does something similar for OSX, it's an incomplete solution because it only works in Cocoa apps.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

30 viruses for OS X 10.0 totally

Uhm, links ?

This is the first time I hear about REAL viruses on OS X.
Are you sure they didn't count in bogus worms that can't self-replicate ?

-t

[analogika]

Originally Posted by budster101

Oh I just saw that....

30 viruses for OS X 10.0 totally, except for OS X Tiger where there are none. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

My bad.

Still bad.

I think you might want to read up on those stats (or, um, not argue about system security in the first place).

Last numbers I heard were around 60 viruses total for the CLASSIC Mac OS (up to and including OS 9), with ZERO total for OS X - starting with the Public Beta up to present-day Tiger.

[budster101]

Sheesh. Slaps forehead.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

Sheesh. Slaps forehead.

Fixed.

-t

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Uhm, links ?

This is the first time I hear about REAL viruses on OS X.
Are you sure they didn't count in bogus worms that can't self-replicate ?

Worms can self-replicate; that's part of their definition. The difference between a worm and a virus is that a virus hides inside a file, while a worm is its own file. Most of the Windows "viruses" which we've heard about in recent years are actually worms. Anything which spreads through e-mail or Web servers, like Melissa, Nimda, or Code Red, could be considered a kind of worm. OS9 actually had a worm which spread from machine to machine by embedding itself onto any CDs which the user burned; it relied on QuickTime's AutoStart functionality so that when the CD was put into the Mac it would immediately run.

True viruses are actually quite rare. As you point out, there are some 30 of them on the Mac and several hundred on Windows. The original Word macro viruses were also true viruses, because they hid inside Word files and spread from file to file; not many of these are still around. There hasn't been a well-known example of a true Virus on Macs or Windows since Melissa, really; most of the action has shifted to worms because they spread faster.

When you talk about "bogus worms that can't self-replicate", I think you mean to talk about Trojan horses, the third kind of malware. As you point out, they cannot self-replicate; they must be downloaded and run manually. These are trivial to write; if I really wanted to I could lock up an OSX machine with five lines of C. But because they cannot spread on their own, they are generally not considered too much of a threat. The fact that they don't self-replicate makes them extremely difficult to detect.

As for the malware situation on OSX, there are no viruses, one rumored worm, and a handful of Trojan horses. OS9 had some 30 viruses, about five worms (one e-mail worm and four major variants of the QuickTime AutoStart CD-ROM worm), and many Trojan horses. Windows... well, I don't want to think about all the numbers.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Millennium

When you talk about "bogus worms that can't self-replicate", I think you mean to talk about Trojan horses, the third kind of malware.

I actually said that on purpose, because in the press, they were often labeled "worms", although they were only trojans.

Thanks for your post though. It should clarify the matter for everyone here..

-t

[Millennium]

Well, I've got my MM now. Having used it for a couple of days, my observations:

1) The right-click thing does take getting used to. My guess that they used touch sensors instead of pressure sensors seems to have been correct, and it's all done in hardware, so my guess is that this can't be updated. I got things mostly figured out in a day, but other people using this machine are likely to have trouble. Had they used pressure sensors, they could have determined what button was being clicked based on which side was pressed harder.

2) I'd be interested to know how exactly they made the scroll ball work in a discrete manner, rather than totally smooth; I didn't think they'd be able to do that. The discreteness isn't really as 'hard' as I'd like, but again I picked it up in a day or two. It just requires a lighter touch than I was used to.

3) The software seems good. The settings for tracking, scrolling, and double-click speed are solid, but they can be tweaked within a good range.

4) The side buttons are extremely difficult to hit accidentally; Apple got the right idea here. As my first two points may imply, I'm somewhat rough on my peripherals, but never once was I able to accidentally activate the side buttons.

Verdict: This mouse definitely takes getting used to, but it's not bad at all. The scroll ball and side buttons are very Dock-like, in that on paper they break every UI convention known to man but for some reason they Just Work Right. Apple made a big mistake by going with touch sensors instead of pressure sensors, but this is the only major flaw and it's not a fatal one.

Incidentally, here's my setup:

Left: Primary
Right: Secondary
Scrollball: Button 3
Sides: App Switcher

Oh, and I'm now convinced that James is a troll.

[besson3c]

I've been playing with my new MM I got at work too...

Unfortunately, my review isn't as positive as Millenium's.

I also don't like the fact that I have to lift my finger up and over to right click. Sometimes evolutionary steps are more welcomed than revolutionary steps (Windows being an evolutional development vs. the Mac being often a series of revolutionary steps is perhaps a good example of this). This way of right clicking might have been what Apple's usability experts considered the most efficient way to handle an input device, but for many users, it is something new to learn, and I'm not certain that I'm willing to relearn how I right click, since the benefits of this aren't clear to me.

The side buttons should probably have some sort of affordance too. I haven't programmed them yet, but I can tell that they provide very little tactile feedback when pressed.

For some reason, the mouse did ship with both right and left clicks working. I thought that the right click was something that had to specifically be enabled?

I realize I'm not saying much of anything new here, but I just thought I would add my two cents.

Yes, I think that James' arguments are flawed. The general rules associated with input devices and other hardware are different than software interface rules. They are just two completely different mediums.

[christ]

I don't know if any of you guys have seen the Ars Technica reviews:

Review and Dissection

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I've been playing with my new MM I got at work too...

Unfortunately, my review isn't as positive as Millenium's.

You bring up some points I didn't mention, though, and that's good.

I also don't like the fact that I have to lift my finger up and over to right click. Sometimes evolutionary steps are more welcomed than revolutionary steps (Windows being an evolutional development vs. the Mac being often a series of revolutionary steps is perhaps a good example of this). This way of right clicking might have been what Apple's usability experts considered the most efficient way to handle an input device, but for many users, it is something new to learn, and I'm not certain that I'm willing to relearn how I right click, since the benefits of this aren't clear to me.

On this, we seem to be in agreement. My point about pressure-versus-touch was just a suggestion on how this could have been done better, but other than this our feelings are the same.

The side buttons should probably have some sort of affordance too. I haven't programmed them yet, but I can tell that they provide very little tactile feedback when pressed.

Indeed, this is a problem. That said, I'm not sure how they could have implemented this without making the buttons easier to click accidentally.

For some reason, the mouse did ship with both right and left clicks working. I thought that the right click was something that had to specifically be enabled?

It looks like the MM works as a standard two-button mouse by default. Once you install the software (which allows you to program the buttons) it reverts to one-button mode by default. Presumably this software will ship as part of some future OSX update so that it won't be necessary to install drivers anymore; when that happens, then the mouse will appear to be one-button by default on all Macs.

Incidentally, I wondered in my previous post how Apple managed to make the scroll ball work in a discrete manner. It turns out that the answer is simple: they didn't. There is a tiny relay somewhere in the mouse that clicks when the ball is moved a certain distance, much like the one in iPods which clicks when you "spin" the scroll "wheel" (of course, I have a first-gen iPod, so I have a real scroll wheel, but the relay is there too). This explains why the discreteness wasn't as hard as I'd have liked; it's not even there. That said, I'm amazed at the difference a simple clicker makes; it had me completely fooled.

[Millennium]

Another note: I got this for my PowerBook, because I couldn't stand using the trackpad for most things anymore. However, after a couple of days, I find that I've been using both devices; mostly the trackpad when I'm typing and have to go back or select something, but mostly the MM for everything else. Occasionally -mostly while Web browsing- I find myself using both at once.

Dual-wielding input devices is cool.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Another note: I got this for my PowerBook, because I couldn't stand using the trackpad for most things anymore. However, after a couple of days, I find that I've been using both devices; mostly the trackpad when I'm typing and have to go back or select something, but mostly the MM for everything else. Occasionally -mostly while Web browsing- I find myself using both at once.

Dual-wielding input devices is cool.

Actually, generally speaking, that's not a good way to use input device because you have to switch between modes. Trackpad and Mighty Mouse are two different modes and they require different types of mental mode to use them.

You think it's cool because you are a geek. That's fine, but I just wanted to point out that it's the kind of mentality really prevents the computer industry from thinking about novice users.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by christ

I don't know if any of you guys have seen the Ars Technica reviews:

Review and Dissection

Ars Technica is not a good place to find objective reviews. It is a rant site for a bunch of geeks and geek-wannabes who have no idea how to design a good user interface.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think that James' arguments are flawed. The general rules associated with input devices and other hardware are different than software interface rules. They are just two completely different mediums.

Wrong. There is a consistent rule that applies to all hardware user interface. Hidden interface is bad in general, and Mighty Mouse miserably fails to address that rule.

Tell me, how a novice user (like your grandma, for example) can tell there are two "buttons" just by looking at a Mighty Mouse? Remember, most people don't read manual. You are in a deep trouble if you expect that your grandma actually bothers to read the Mighty Mouse manual before using it.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by sek929

Just for saying this you deserve a swift kick in the nuts. I've seen IE ruin more computers than hurricane damage.

No way it can match the damage done by Katrina.

I mean, seriously, most of those are user errors. Did you install anti-virus software? How about firewall?

[Warung]

I just bought the MM yesterday, and I love it already.

The "scroll ball" took about 20 minute to get used to, and right clicking works perfectly for me.

[effgee]

The thread that wouldn't die ...

Originally Posted by james9490

... I mean, seriously, most of those are user errors. Did you install anti-virus software? How about firewall?

<dellvoice>
a tabDude - I mean seriously ...
</dellvoice>

It's considered a "user error" when a user buys product A (at least in part) motivated by advertising claims X, Y and Z only to discover that in order for A to actually fulfill those claims, he is required to purchase product B and C, which either shouldn't be required to run A in the first place or (at the very least) should have been included with A at the time of purchase?



You are so talking out of your, uhm ... ear, it's not even funny. Then again - no, scratch that - it's very funny - keep up the great work!

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

Wrong. There is a consistent rule that applies to all hardware user interface. Hidden interface is bad in general, and Mighty Mouse miserably fails to address that rule.

So do right-click menus, and yet you seem to think they're the Second Coming. Please reconcile this apparent hypocrisy.

Tell me, how a novice user (like your grandma, for example) can tell there are two "buttons" just by looking at a Mighty Mouse?

She wouldn't be able to. Then again, she wouldn't need to, because the Mac guidelines are very insistent on making sure that all apps are perfectly usable with only one mouse button, as opposed to Windows where you often need two mouse buttons just to do basic stuff.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

I mean, seriously, most of those are user errors. Did you install anti-virus software? How about firewall?

Why isn't the Windows XP firewall set to sensible defaults? Why doesn't Microsoft take steps to limit the damage that viruses can do in the first place? These are quite within Microsoft's grasp, as evidenced by the face that other companies -and even the Open-Source community that you hate so much- have been doing it for years. So why doesn't Microsoft?

No, seriously. Why?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

Ars Technica is not a good place to find objective reviews. It is a rant site for a bunch of geeks and geek-wannabes who have no idea how to design a good user interface.

I don't know about that; John Siracusa is pretty highly respected in UI circles. I don't agree with everything he has to say, but he has many good ideas.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

Tell me, how a novice user (like your grandma, for example) can tell there are two "buttons" just by looking at a Mighty Mouse? Remember, most people don't read manual. You are in a deep trouble if you expect that your grandma actually bothers to read the Mighty Mouse manual before using it.

For the twentieth time, James:

THAT'S THE WHOLE ****ING POINT. THERE IS NO SECOND BUTTON FOR THE NOVICE USER by default, UNLESS (S)HE SPECIFICALLY ENABLES IT!

What you're talking about is ONLY a problem on Windows XP/2000, since the hardware is recognized as a standard two-button mouse there.

This is NOT the case on 10.4, where the driver software will be installed by every novice user (because the instructions say to) or included as part of 10.4.3.

And frankly, Apple's non-obvious second button (present by default ONLY ON WINDOWS) is really the least of Windows XP's user interface problems.