[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

No way it can match the damage done by Katrina.

I mean, seriously, most of those are user errors. Did you install anti-virus software? How about firewall?

I thought you're big on "intuitive" and novice user compatibility.

You know, those novices that are so horribly confused by a second button that isn't even there not performing functionality that's turned off by default, but are naturally guided by intuition towards anti-virus and firewall download sites.

Gosh, you're an idiot.

[Cadaver]

Wow. 6 pages, and still not locked.

[budster101]

Yes. He is an idiot. Seconded.

Lock this POS thread please.

[Millennium]

I still want to see if he'll backpedal on the "Hidden interface is bad! No, wait; right-click menus are good!" bit. Could we leave it open at least until the next time he posts?

[christ]

Originally Posted by james9490

Actually, generally speaking, that's not a good way to use input device because you have to switch between modes. Trackpad and Mighty Mouse are two different modes and they require different types of mental mode to use them.

You think it's cool because you are a geek. That's fine, but I just wanted to point out that it's the kind of mentality really prevents the computer industry from thinking about novice users.

OK - so which device should the novice user forego, the keyboard or the mouse?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by christ

OK - so which device should the novice user forego, the keyboard or the mouse?

The answer is Mighty Mouse, my friend. As I've been saying all along, it is the user interface nightmare, and it should be thoroughly redesigned.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Millennium

I still want to see if he'll backpedal on the "Hidden interface is bad! No, wait; right-click menus are good!" bit.

Contextual menu is NOT hidden interface because it is, as it says, "contextual," which means that user acts on it in a certain context he/she is aware. For example, "My Computer" icon is clearly visible, and he/she acts on that visible object. Same with the desktop. When he/she executes the desktop contextual menu, the desktop is one huge visible space, and he/she consciously acts on that visible object.

Now, in most cases a typical two-button mouse has clearly visible buttons, so contextual menu is just a combination of two visible interface elements coordinating together. User can get it right away. Mighty Mouse, on the other hand, isn't so mighty: It doesn't have a clearly visible button, so user is completely lost.

Mighty Mouse is user interface disaster in a very subtle manner. That's why many people are so easily deceived.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by budster101

Yes. He is an idiot. Seconded.

Lock this POS thread please.

By the way, this is the kind of stuff that makes me think the quality of the Macintosh crowd, particularly at this forum, is all time low. This is also why Macintosh has never been and will never bee the first class citizen in the IT world.

Think before ridiculing people.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Wow. 6 pages, and still not locked.

Dozens of these offensive posts, and these pepole are still not locked out of the forum. This tells me the low quality of Macintosh crowd.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

I thought you're big on "intuitive" and novice user compatibility.

You know, those novices that are so horribly confused by a second button that isn't even there not performing functionality that's turned off by default, but are naturally guided by intuition towards anti-virus and firewall download sites.

Gosh, you're an idiot.

Here again, showing lowly nature of the Macintosh crowd. Calling someone "idiot" publicly is NOT a proper response for a serious discussion.

That aside, the computer usability in general wouldn't be so horribly as bad as it is today if Apple didn't keep designing universal hidden interface such as Mighty Mouse. It is a huge problem right now because it is marketed as a product that is simple and easy to understand. Granted, it might *look* simple, but hiding things under a hidden interface is NOT the way to accomplish usable simplicity.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by james9490

Here again, showing lowly nature of the Macintosh crowd. Calling someone "idiot" publicly is NOT a proper response for a serious discussion.

Thanks for being the voice of logic. Everyone knows PC users don't call other people idiots.

Originally Posted by james9490

the computer usability in general wouldn't be so horribly as bad as it is today if Apple didn't keep designing universal hidden interface such as Mighty Mouse.

That's very true. Apple does have a reputation for horrible interface design. Fortunately, there's the good folks at Microsoft and projects like Gnome and KDE that keep coming up with unique and innovative solutions to Apple's repeated interface blunders.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

For the twentieth time, James:

THAT'S THE WHOLE ****ING POINT. THERE IS NO SECOND BUTTON FOR THE NOVICE USER by default, UNLESS (S)HE SPECIFICALLY ENABLES IT!

No users have to be forced to manually install a piece of driver software for a basic device such as mouse. On Windows two-buttons are clearly visible, and both buttons are enabled by default, and Mr. Angry, THAT'S THE WHOLE ****ING POINT.

Originally Posted by analogika

This is NOT the case on 10.4, where the driver software will be installed by every novice user (because the instructions say to) or included as part of 10.4.3.

.....And Apple hasn't even released 10.4.3 as of today, and it's been how many weeks since they released 10.4.2? Microsoft, on the other hand, has been releasing all sorts of updates every week, firmly taking care of their customers' machines.

Originally Posted by analogika

And frankly, Apple's non-obvious second button (present by default ONLY ON WINDOWS) is really the least of Windows XP's user interface problems.

Wrong. The bottom line here is that Apple can't even design a mouse the right way, and they should be totally ashamed of it.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

Contextual menu is NOT hidden interface because it is, as it says, "contextual," which means that user acts on it in a certain context he/she is aware.

Except, of course, that the user is not aware that any menu necessarily exists. No indication is given. Contextual interviews are clear and intuitive, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength...

For example, "My Computer" icon is clearly visible, and he/she acts on that visible object. Same with the desktop. When he/she executes the desktop contextual menu, the desktop is one huge visible space, and he/she consciously acts on that visible object.

You assume too much by assuming it's conscious. You may know this, because you're used to it, but it is not intuitive. Two identical unmarked buttons never are. Pull ten users off the street right now, and I'll bet you that at least nine of them don't know that there's supposed to be a difference between left-clicking and right-clicking.

Now, in most cases a typical two-button mouse has clearly visible buttons, so contextual menu is just a combination of two visible interface elements coordinating together. User can get it right away. Mighty Mouse, on the other hand, isn't so mighty: It doesn't have a clearly visible button, so user is completely lost.

Only if a two-button mouse is truly necessary. On a Mac, it's not. Since you don't need the second button, what does it matter that the user doesn't know it exists, when it will often only serve to provide confusion anyway?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Thanks for being the voice of logic. Everyone knows PC users don't call other people idiots.

That's very true. Apple does have a reputation for horrible interface design. Fortunately, there's the good folks at Microsoft and projects like Gnome and KDE that keep coming up with unique and innovative solutions to Apple's repeated interface blunders.

Actually, Gnome and KDE are both cheap rip-off of the original Microsoft UI. They are around simply because there are too many cheapskates not wanting to pay for Microsoft's professional design. Did you know that those open source projects are most often managed by a bunch of geek-wannabe teenagers with too much time on their hands?

[james9490]

Originally Posted by hayesk

Then why the heck does grandma have a Mighty Mouse. More likely, she is using the one button mouse her Mac came with.

Sheesh! I would think an "expert" in computer usability would know which devices would be used by which users.

That's like saying all audio editing applications have horrible interfaces because Grandma doesn't understand what a waveform represents.

But here we are talking about a stupid MOUSE, which is one of the very basic computer peripherals.

Besides, most audio editing applications do have horrible interfaces, or you wouldn't have to buy a bunch of 1,000-page computer books just to figure out how to use them.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by james9490

Actually, Gnome and KDE are both cheap rip-off of the original Microsoft UI.

I don't know about that. Even KDE and Gnome have better UI guidelines than Microsoft does, and they tend to be more consistent about them. It's the rest of the Linux crowd that doesn't, and this is unfortunate.

They are around simply because there are too many cheapskates not wanting to pay for Microsoft's professional design.

Did you just use 'Microsoft' and 'professional design' in the same sentence? I designed better UIs at age fifteen, and believe me, back then I thought I was a lot better than I really was.

Did you know that those open source projects are most often managed by a bunch of geek-wannabe teenagers with too much time on their hands?

Um, don't geeks have too much time on their hands by definition? A geek-wannabe is not going to be capable of writing a system which is more reliable and secure than Windows in his spare time, and yet they did.

But whatever. This last post has me convinced: you really are just a troll. You can't back up a single argument with facts, and you don't even try. You just write flamebait to piss people off. You don't even fake defending your own inconsistencies. You just parrot them over and over, as if you ran out of original ideas, which is probably the case now that I think about it.

OK, I'm done. This thread is now about cheese. I like Camembert.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by james9490

No users have to be forced to manually install a piece of driver software for a basic device such as mouse.

Totally.
Logitech doesn't even make drivers for their mice. They don't need them.

Originally Posted by james9490

Did you know that those open source projects are most often managed by a bunch of geek-wannabe teenagers with too much time on their hands?

I did know that. In fact, I was up at IBM in Raleigh a couple weeks ago and met some of their open source 'engineers' and they were all a bunch of pimple faced teens. Ok, so they might have been a little over 40, but I guarantee you at least one of them was under 30, and that's pretty much the same as a teenager.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Except, of course, that the user is not aware that any menu necessarily exists. No indication is given. Contextual interviews are clear and intuitive, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength...

But he/she would know that there are two buttons, and since there are two they must have different purposes. So he/she would first experiment with both buttons to see what each button does.

Mighty Mouse doesn't tell you there is a second button, so most users won't even realize they have something to experiment with. That's what I call a hidden interface, and it is a huge loss.

Originally Posted by Millennium

You assume too much by assuming it's conscious. You may know this, because you're used to it, but it is not intuitive. Two identical unmarked buttons never are. Pull ten users off the street right now, and I'll bet you that at least nine of them don't know that there's supposed to be a difference between left-clicking and right-clicking.

Actually, 9 out of 10 people on the street right now have already used or bought a Windows machine, so they surely know what the second mouse button does.

Your comment indicates that you haven't gotten out of the Macintosh sandbox that much. Ignorance is bliss, indeed....

Originally Posted by Millennium

Only if a two-button mouse is truly necessary. On a Mac, it's not. Since you don't need the second button, what does it matter that the user doesn't know it exists, when it will often only serve to provide confusion anyway?

How do you know that it will often only serve to provide confusion? You are the one assuming things way too often.

[james9490]

Your comments below:

Originally Posted by Millennium

Well, I've got my MM now. Having used it for a couple of days, my observations:

- The right-click thing does take getting used to....

- The side buttons are extremely difficult to hit accidentally

- Verdict: This mouse definitely takes getting used to, but it's not bad at all.

..... really proves that Mighty Mouse has serious user interface issues. Congratulations on finding out yourself.

Originally Posted by Millennium

Oh, and I'm now convinced that James is a troll.

I notice you are a moderator, yet you don't care about numerous offensive posts by Railhead, etc. You have no right to label me as troll when numerous others here in this thread have posted so many offensive pictures and comments. THEY are trolls. I've been the only one being consistent with serious user interface discussions.

Just how offensive can these people get?

[loki74]

Originally Posted by james9490

Your comments below:





..... really proves that Mighty Mouse has serious user interface issues. Congratulations on finding out yourself.





I notice you are a moderator, yet you don't care about numerous offensive posts by Railhead, etc. You have no right to label me as troll when numerous others here in this thread have posted so many offensive pictures and comments. THEY are trolls. I've been the only one being consistent with serious user interface discussions.

Just how offensive can these people get?

mmmmhmm... Railhead is an established member who has engaged relevant, intruiging, and logical discussion. You currently have 57 posts, all of which are spread out between two threads: this one and "Open source = Lame excuse for incompetent programmers." Majority of these posts are in this thread. I do not know how you behaved in that thread, but in this one, Mellenium's assessment is more than accurate.

[Cadaver]

Are we done yet??

[DeathToWindows]

Meh. Played with one for a bit at University Computers (my campus computer store) and was underwhelmed. I'll stick with my $20 kensington mouse-in-a-box.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by james9490

Your comments below:

.... really proves that Mighty Mouse has serious user interface issues. Congratulations on finding out yourself.

All this and your other thread proves are you are a glutton for punishment and a troll.
Welcome to being found out.

I notice you are a moderator, yet you don't care about numerous offensive posts by Railhead, etc. You have no right to label me as troll when numerous others here in this thread have posted so many offensive pictures and comments. THEY are trolls. I've been the only one being consistent with serious user interface discussions.

Just how offensive can these people get?

If you cared to be more than a troll you would know that moderators only express their powers when the mischeivious person, like yourself is a jerk in their forum. Otherwise they are like you or me and they just express their opinions.

The people you label as trolls have been here for a while and are simply crapping in your thread, because you are a troll. Like the man said. You have 50 plus posts in a forum you have little knowledge about. We are fairly tight but fight amongst each other as well. One thing we do not tolerate are people like you coming in and pushing their weight around... call us a 'club' of sorts. Now play nice, and maybe some of them will warm up to you, or maybe not.

"How offensive can they get?"

Based on your other thread, I'd say you asked for it.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by james9490

By the way, this is the kind of stuff that makes me think the quality of the Macintosh crowd, particularly at this forum, is all time low. This is also why Macintosh has never been and will never bee the first class citizen in the IT world.

Think before ridiculing people.

Just saw this winner of a post by you Mr. Troll.

Now kindly STFU and go back to your web site and play lapdog for M$... Mr. Thurrott.
Think before trolling a Mac forum.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by james9490

... I've been the only one being consistent with serious user interface discussions.

You have been consistent in quite a few things throughout this thread ... funnily enough though, "serious user interface discussion" is not one of them

Originally Posted by james9490

Just how offensive can these people get?

Huh?

They're not "people" - they're commonly referred to as "smilies". And as far as "offensive" is concerned, I'd like to see you having your head smashed against a brick wall all day and not get offensive in the process.

Lay off the smilies, I say!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

No users have to be forced to manually install a piece of driver software for a basic device such as mouse. On Windows two-buttons are clearly visible, and both buttons are enabled by default, and Mr. Angry, THAT'S THE WHOLE ****ING POINT.

Well, it certainly hasn't been your point up to now, Mr Smarty-Pants.


Regardless, the driver WON'T have to be installed from the very next system update Apple supplies.

And yes a driver DOES need to be installed in order for the mouse buttons to be programmable.

You may have noticed that the buttons are NOT programmable on Windows - why? For lack of specific drivers.

I don't think I can trust you to do the math, but I really don't feel like spelling it out AGAIN.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

.....And Apple hasn't even released 10.4.3 as of today, and it's been how many weeks since they released 10.4.2? Microsoft, on the other hand, has been releasing all sorts of updates every week, firmly taking care of their customers' machines.

AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAaahahahahahaaaaah. *sniffle*

Last I heard, Zotob "took care" of their customers' machines real good.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

Besides, most audio editing applications do have horrible interfaces, or you wouldn't have to buy a bunch of 1,000-page computer books just to figure out how to use them.

Actually, most professional recording studios have horrible interfaces, or you wouldn't have to go through years, if not decades, of training just to figure out how to use them.

I'm sorry, but you are most certainly among the most ill-informed, ignorant trolls I have yet seen crawl out from under a Microsoft-sponsored rock onto this forum.

And I suppose that's putting it mildly.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by james9490

How do you know that it will often only serve to provide confusion? You are the one assuming things way too often.

Do yourself a favor and at least read the responses people post in your own thread, huh?

If there is one thing in user interface research that has been documented time and again, it is that the second button and context menus are the #1 point of confusion for novice users of Windows.

This has been pointed out above, and you have ignored it, just as you've ignored tha question about how context menus, being hidden interface, are somehow not a problem, while a second mouse-button that doesn't even exist on a standard install, somehow is.


Mill, this guy won't even answer when you nail him down. I say you either ban his slithery ass or at least close this thread.

It's not going anywhere.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by analogika

...least close this thread. It's not going anywhere.

Don't say that, it's only been 6 pages, 278 replies, 2897 views! I really don't think we should give up on James that quickly - plus, I'd almost be willing to bet a nickel that this thread provides very real therapeutic value for him.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by effgee

Don't say that, it's only been 6 pages, 278 replies, 2897 views! I really don't think we should give up on James that quickly - plus, I'd almost be willing to bet a nickel that this thread provides very real therapeutic value for him.

6 pages, 278 replies, 2897 views simply means that people do realize there is something very wrong with Mighty Mouse and its user interface.

Besides, so far a few people and I are the only one who really get it. Others can't counter-argue my points so they go the trolling route and paste all those offensive graphics.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

Actually, most professional recording studios have horrible interfaces, or you wouldn't have to go through years, if not decades, of training just to figure out how to use them.

I'm sorry, but you are most certainly among the most ill-informed, ignorant trolls I have yet seen crawl out from under a Microsoft-sponsored rock onto this forum.

And I suppose that's putting it mildly.

Okay, then explain logically and thoroughly why I am the most ill-informed, ignorant computer expert and stop being rude in public.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by analogika

Do yourself a favor and at least read the responses people post in your own thread, huh?
If there is one thing in user interface research that has been documented time and again, it is that the second button and context menus are the #1 point of confusion for novice users of Windows.

Do yourself a favor and at least list those researches you claim have actually been done.

Originally Posted by analogika

This has been pointed out above, and you have ignored it, just as you've ignored tha question about how context menus, being hidden interface, are somehow not a problem, while a second mouse-button that doesn't even exist on a standard install, somehow is.

Do yourself a favor again and at least read my counter-arguments before posting your half-ass reply. I didn't ignore those points. I defended them by explaining why contextual menus are not always hidden.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by budster101

Just saw this winner of a post by you Mr. Troll.

Now kindly STFU and go back to your web site and play lapdog for M$... Mr. Thurrott.
Think before trolling a Mac forum.

Now, would you kindly STFU and go back to your own Macintosh sandbox if you can't discuss like a mature adult?

[james9490]

I deserve a lot of apologies from these offensive people. Mac users, what is your problem? You don't even feel secure enough to point out and discuss Mighty Mouse problems because Apple made it? Are you so afraid of Apple abandoning the Mac platform and just focus on iPod?

[esXXI]

Originally Posted by james9490

I deserve a lot of apologies from these offensive people. Mac users, what is your problem? You don't even feel secure enough to point out and discuss Mighty Mouse problems because Apple made it? Are you so afraid of Apple abandoning the Mac platform and just focus on iPod?

You think this is an actual discussion. It's not. It's you trolling, spouting rubbish and ignoring anyone who posts a valid point.

Where's that dancing lock when it's so fitting?

[MaxPower2k3]

In order for my grandmother to be confused by the Mighty Mouse, she must:

1) Decide that she is not satisfied with the stock 1-button Apple Mouse for some reason.

2) Go to an Apple Store and purchase the Mighty Mouse, which looks nearly identical to the mouse she already decided she was dissatisfied with.

3) Get home, plug it in, and, despite the fact that it works fine, (she can click down the top just as she did with her old mouse, plus she can scroll through documents with the ball) she decides to install the driver program. (Once 10.4.3 comes out, the drivers will be pre-installed, but it'll still be configured as one button by default)

4) Find her way into system preferences, go to the mouse pane, go to the Mighty Mouse button configuration tab, and assign Secondary Click to the right side of the mouse.

5) Then, even once it is set up as two buttons, she has to consciously lift her index finger off of the mouse so she's only touching the right side when she clicks to perform a secondary click; if she just rests her hand on the top and presses down, it will simply register as a primary click.

If my grandmother has gone through all of that, I think she probably has some idea of what she's doing. Chances are, however, that if she does find herself in possession of a Mighty Mouse, she'll be happily clicking away like she always did; that is, with one button. There is simply no requirement for a two-button mouse in OS X; it's completely unnecessary. Anything that can be done via a contextual menu can be done in a more traditional manner. It's a convenience that more advanced users can take advantage of to speed up their workflow, but it isn't (and shouldn't ever be) the only way to perform a task.

That's why Apple stuck to a single button mouse for so long. With the Mighty Mouse, they're catering to their more advanced users who do understand and do use the feature, but at the same time, they won't alienate any of their more novice users who might buy it for the scroll ball, or, if, down the road, Apple does phase out the regular single-button mouse, buy it because it's their only option. These users won't have a problem, because, to them, it's just a regular, easy to learn, easy to understand, single button mouse. Even if one of these users does happen to find their way into the Mighty Mouse preferences, and sets up that right mouse button, Apple can't be blamed for that. There's hundreds of preferences that can cause confusion to a user who is just randomly playing around with settings; that user can just find that preference again and disable it. If they don't know what they did, then they shouldn't have been messing around in system preferences in the first place (and that's true of any OS).

That's my $0.02. Apple knows what they're doing, and, James, you have yet to really show us that you do, too.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by james9490

I deserve a lot of apologies from these offensive people. Mac users, what is your problem? You don't even feel secure enough to point out and discuss Mighty Mouse problems because Apple made it? Are you so afraid of Apple abandoning the Mac platform and just focus on iPod?

Why do you project all the time?

Your intentions are clear. You are clearly a anti-Apple zealot. Which is just as bad as being a pro-Apple zealot.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by james9490

Now, would you kindly STFU and go back to your own Macintosh sandbox if you can't discuss like a mature adult?

I wish you would kindly STFU and get OUT of my Macintosh sandbox! Go back to your MS sandbox...

(Guys, I really think he's just jealous that our sand is better his sand)

[budster101]

Originally Posted by james9490

Now, would you kindly STFU and go back to your own Macintosh sandbox if you can't discuss like a mature adult?

[paul w]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

In order for my grandmother to be confused by the Mighty Mouse, she must:

1) Decide that she is not satisfied with the stock 1-button Apple Mouse for some reason.

2) Go to an Apple Store and purchase the Mighty Mouse, which looks nearly identical to the mouse she already decided she was dissatisfied with.

3) Get home, plug it in, and, despite the fact that it works fine, (she can click down the top just as she did with her old mouse, plus she can scroll through documents with the ball) she decides to install the driver program. (Once 10.4.3 comes out, the drivers will be pre-installed, but it'll still be configured as one button by default)

4) Find her way into system preferences, go to the mouse pane, go to the Mighty Mouse button configuration tab, and assign Secondary Click to the right side of the mouse.

5) Then, even once it is set up as two buttons, she has to consciously lift her index finger off of the mouse so she's only touching the right side when she clicks to perform a secondary click; if she just rests her hand on the top and presses down, it will simply register as a primary click.

If my grandmother has gone through all of that, I think she probably has some idea of what she's doing. Chances are, however, that if she does find herself in possession of a Mighty Mouse, she'll be happily clicking away like she always did; that is, with one button. There is simply no requirement for a two-button mouse in OS X; it's completely unnecessary. Anything that can be done via a contextual menu can be done in a more traditional manner. It's a convenience that more advanced users can take advantage of to speed up their workflow, but it isn't (and shouldn't ever be) the only way to perform a task.

That's why Apple stuck to a single button mouse for so long. With the Mighty Mouse, they're catering to their more advanced users who do understand and do use the feature, but at the same time, they won't alienate any of their more novice users who might buy it for the scroll ball, or, if, down the road, Apple does phase out the regular single-button mouse, buy it because it's their only option. These users won't have a problem, because, to them, it's just a regular, easy to learn, easy to understand, single button mouse. Even if one of these users does happen to find their way into the Mighty Mouse preferences, and sets up that right mouse button, Apple can't be blamed for that. There's hundreds of preferences that can cause confusion to a user who is just randomly playing around with settings; that user can just find that preference again and disable it. If they don't know what they did, then they shouldn't have been messing around in system preferences in the first place (and that's true of any OS).

That's my $0.02. Apple knows what they're doing, and, James, you have yet to really show us that you do, too.

You might as well be talking about my Mom and 2 grandmothers. The one button mouse is STILL brilliant for many users' needs. I love my mighty mouse, but then again I'm using Photoshop and Illustrator and stuff.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by james9490

6 pages, 278 replies, 2897 views simply means that people do realize there is something very wrong with Mighty Mouse and its user interface.

Besides, so far a few people and I are the only one who really get it. Others can't counter-argue my points so they go the trolling route and paste all those offensive graphics.

Can't counter-argue your points? Seems that I did that about 4 or 5 pages ago, and you still haven't responded.

You, meanwhile, claim that "hidden UI" is a bad thing, yet you love context menus. You don't seem to want to talk about the difference between UI guidelines for on screen and physical items.

Context menus are hidden UI on screen. Something that someone would have to know about before they can use. The Mac, while having context menus is still fully usable without those menus. That is part of the Mac's UI guidelines. This can't be said for Windows.

A mouse/keyboard/etc. are physical items. They don't have to conform to the same UI guidelines. Do you look at your mouse when you click? Do you look at the keyboard while you type?

I used a MM the other day. The scroll ball is great. And I've come to the opposite conclusion of many about the "lift the left finger in order to right click" thing. I think it's a good thing. Because until you lift your left finger and press with the right, it's still a one button mouse. Even a right click if your left finger rests on it registers as a left click.

And by your very own argument, if once you KNOW that something exists in order to use it, it's not bad interface. And you have to know to lift the left side to click the right.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Context menus are hidden UI on screen. Something that someone would have to know about before they can use. The Mac, while having context menus is still fully usable without those menus. That is part of the Mac's UI guidelines. This can't be said for Windows.

Not to mention that an MS fanboy trolling on a Mac forum has NO chance at arguing UI. I mean, do we even want to get started on how faithfully Windows ingores Fitt's Law, which is perhaps one of the most important things to consider when trying to achieve UI effeciency?

Also Not to mention that the MM UI is not hidden--they need to know about it to buy it. And even then, they need to know about it to enable it. Furthermore, they need to know about it to use it!

Hello? Our sand is still better than yours!!

[sek929]

This guy is still arguing for M$'s design team?

Two swift kicks in each nut for you.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by loki74

Not to mention that an MS fanboy trolling on a Mac forum has NO chance at arguing UI. I mean, do we even want to get started on how faithfully Windows ingores Fitt's Law, which is perhaps one of the most important things to consider when trying to achieve UI effeciency?

I brought up Fitts' Law to james on page 1 or 2... no response.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by james9490

No way it can match the damage done by Katrina.

I mean, seriously, most of those are user errors. Did you install anti-virus software? How about firewall?

Why do I need to do any of those? If someone can't figure out a mouse they sure as hell won't even know what spyware or a firewall is.

You are really talking to the wrong crowd of people here.

The Mac OS is the Ferrari of OSes, Windows is the Yugo.

Mac designs have been stolen by every PC and peripherial maker in history. You don't like the MM, so what is your point? You go off on several tangents trying to show Mac users as fool, hahaha, man you couldn't be more wrong. In my 6 years of being a member of these boards I've come to realize that the Mac community holds itself to one hallmark....The computer should help you, not the other way around.

My roomate can barely even start his computer up now due to spyware and popups through IE, its a 2.8ghz Athlon and my 733 gives it the smackdown in every category. My machine is running free of all that PC world BS and I didn't have to do a thing except buy a superior product to begin with.

I hope you do stick around and post more M$ fanboy statements, its really quite enjoyable to see someone so mis-informed.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by sek929

Why do I need to do any of those? If someone can't figure out a mouse they sure as hell won't even know what spyware or a firewall is.

Any statistics to back up your claim?

Originally Posted by sek929

You are really talking to the wrong crowd of people here.
The Mac OS is the Ferrari of OSes, Windows is the Yugo.

No, I would say the Mac OS is the BMW of the OSes, and Windows is the Lexus. The BMW is regarded as more prestigious yet it is unnecessarily more expensive, and meaningless reputation (built on people's uncertainty and ignorance) is the only thing it's hanging onto. Toyota, on the other hand, is much cheaper, runs much better, offers much better gas milage, it offers much better reliability rating (see the Consumer Report), and therefore it offers the best overall value to us consumers.

Now, it goes way beyond that. You could put a turbo charger on BMW but it's MUCH more expensive, there is much less selection and so on. On the other hand I can choose a turbo charger out of a huge selection for Toyota. Toyota would just blow BMW out of water once it is tuned up with those upgrade parts.

In the same manner I can build my own PC but I can't build my own Mac. It's just impossible because the platform is closed and proprietary. The end result? Users are stuck with Apple-endorced peripherals such as Mighty Mouse. I have the freedom Mac users don't have. I can choose the best video card for various different situations, needs and budget, I can choose the best wireless LAN card, sound card, etc. etc. via PCI/AGP slots. Heck, I can even choose a case! I custom-design my own PC, it's an art, and believe it or not, I can do it better than Apple or any Mac users out there claiming their machines are better than PCs.

Originally Posted by sek929

Mac designs have been stolen by every PC and peripherial maker in history.

Wrong again. Apple stole the Taskbar idea and created the Dock. Windows has had something similar to Finder's Column View for years before Apple came up with the OS X. (i.e. Click on a folder in Windows Explorer's folder tree pane, and its content/preview appears in the right pane.)

Originally Posted by sek929

I've come to realize that the Mac community holds itself to one hallmark....The computer should help you, not the other way around.

Oh, so according to your logic I guess nobody should have to learn how to drive a car in order to actually drive one since car should be easy to operate. No, you are so dead wrong that it's not even funny anymore.

I tell you the truth: The problem with the Mac crowd is that they somehow expect everything to be just automatic. You can get that to a point but in reality it's technically impossible at the end. Take Plug & Play, for example. Yes, I can plug in a two-button mouse and it would work without my intervention but I still have to know what USB (or PS/2) is, what sort of devices can be plugged into, and so on. The right approach is this: Our education system must start teaching children how to use a PC, all the basic protocols and how that works (i.e. what "IP Address" is, where to find it, etc.) much like they started teaching kids how to type back in the old days when typewriters came out in the consumer market.

Originally Posted by sek929

My roomate can barely even start his computer up now due to spyware and popups through IE, its a 2.8ghz Athlon and my 733 gives it the smackdown in every category. My machine is running free of all that PC world BS and I didn't have to do a thing except buy a superior product to begin with.

Just what "superior products" has Apple come up with anyway? Any new innovative software? I say, "NOTHING!!" Just one example: Before iTunes we had MusicMatch, which offered more features. We had Adobe Premiere before iMovie came out, and after it came out Microsoft released Windows Movie Maker which offered FAR more features and effects.

Your roommate's PC problem is an isolated incident, and it doesn't mean that all other PCs are going down. My professional guess is that he just didn't have his anti-virus software updated daily (you don't have to do it manually... his software would've done it automatically via scheduled update), or forgot to check disk errors. Besides, it's really an user error that he didn't keep a clone backup of his hard drive. With a tool like DriveMagic recovering from disaster is just a matter of running such clone software, and it would be just a matter of half an hour.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by loki74

Not to mention that an MS fanboy trolling on a Mac forum has NO chance at arguing UI. I mean, do we even want to get started on how faithfully Windows ingores Fitt's Law, which is perhaps one of the most important things to consider when trying to achieve UI effeciency?

Also Not to mention that the MM UI is not hidden--they need to know about it to buy it. And even then, they need to know about it to enable it. Furthermore, they need to know about it to use it!

Hello? Our sand is still better than yours!!

Instead of making fun of me why don't you take a close look at this:

Let's say your mouse is within 10 pixels of the exact center of a large, 1600 X 1200 screen. You have a single-pixel target on the screen, and you must point and click precisely. How would you do that quickly? The answer is the pixel immediately at the current cursor location: Click the mouse and you're done.

Contextual menu works in this fashion, and that's why Windows OS uses it extensively. Everything on the desktop is visible, and the right button on the mouse is also visible and easily identifiable. So, two visible objects are combined to execute a "hidden" menu, and that is NOT what you call a "hidden" interface.

Now, Mighty Mouse is extremely troublesome because there is no visible and identifiable "right button," so user is destined to get confused.

By the way, you need to realize that you are missing good things because you choose to make yourself get stuck in the Mac sandbox. Most Mac users are very ignorant of how Windows works. It's always the Mac users complaining about how they can't use many web services and so on. Why would you want to use a machine that is so incompatible with the rest of the world and torture yourself using it?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by james9490

In the same manner I can build my own PC but I can't build my own Mac. It's just impossible because the platform is closed and proprietary. The end result? Users are stuck with Apple-endorced peripherals such as Mighty Mouse. I have the freedom Mac users don't have. I can choose the best video card for various different situations, needs and budget, I can choose the best wireless LAN card, sound card, etc. etc. via PCI/AGP slots.

I'm too lazy to make a picture, so I'm just going to type it here:
HA! HA! james9490 has NO IDEA WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT!!1!

Apple did not endorse (or oppose, or really take notice of) my third-party mouse, but it works just fine. Not that it matters, because you're just a troll, but I want to set the record straight in case anybody is doing a search.

Originally Posted by james9490

Windows has had something similar to Finder's Column View for years before Apple came up with the OS X. (i.e. Click on a folder in Windows Explorer's folder tree pane, and its content/preview appears in the right pane.)

That's hardly the same, and column view comes from NeXTstep anyway.

Originally Posted by james9490

Your roommate's PC problem is an isolated incident, and it doesn't mean that all other PCs are going down. My professional guess is that he just didn't have his anti-virus software updated daily (you don't have to do it manually... his software would've done it automatically via scheduled update), or forgot to check disk errors.

His roommate's PC being the common case is the reason there's an entire antivirus and repair industry for Windows. Oh, and you don't get any professional opinion, because you are obviously not a professional in any matters relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by james9490

Besides, it's really an user error that he didn't keep a clone backup of his hard drive. With a tool like DriveMagic recovering from disaster is just a matter of running such clone software, and it would be just a matter of half an hour.

So if a user is too dumb to use a freakin' two-button mouse, that's the designer's fault. But if a user's system is completely destroyed by its own inherent insecurity and he didn't have the presence of mind to protect his data from the shitty OS, that's his fault. You really are a piece of work. I'm so glad this thread wasn't locked.

[james9490]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Can't counter-argue your points? Seems that I did that about 4 or 5 pages ago, and you still haven't responded.

Specify the page and I will look. There are so many people posting here now that I don't always respond to every single posts. Some of them are not worth dealing with because they are simply trolling for the sake of being offensive to me.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

You, meanwhile, claim that "hidden UI" is a bad thing, yet you love context menus. You don't seem to want to talk about the difference between UI guidelines for on screen and physical items.

Why should I be obligated to do so when you haven't either?

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Context menus are hidden UI on screen. Something that someone would have to know about before they can use. The Mac, while having context menus is still fully usable without those menus. That is part of the Mac's UI guidelines. This can't be said for Windows.

Any examples? I can use my Windows machine without hardly using my right button, but why should I have to do that while I can shortcut all the way with contextual menus? Contextual menus increase productivity, and interestingly, Windows use it extensively. No wonder 99% of the world use Windows.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

A mouse/keyboard/etc. are physical items. They don't have to conform to the same UI guidelines. Do you look at your mouse when you click? Do you look at the keyboard while you type?

Yes, once in a while, and guess what, everyone does, especially novice users (remember, most people are not geeks) and elderly people. Are you saying they are not worthy of using computers because they aren't geeks??

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

And you have to know to lift the left side to click the right.

Well, you won't have to on Windows. There is a visible, clickable right button. You don't have to lift your finger to click the right button. Windows way wins.....