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Israel's green light
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Logic
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Nov 2, 2004, 12:57 PM
 
Israel's green light

Very good article on the continued occupation and destruction of Palestine.

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
Logic  (op)
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Nov 4, 2004, 03:10 PM
 
*bump*

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
PacHead
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Nov 4, 2004, 04:08 PM
 
Stupid mistake # 1: Don't start a war you can't win, even though you get a whole crapload of countries to join you. If you lose, too bad.

Stupid mistake # 2: After losing the first war, don't attempt the same thing again. Didn't those silly people learn anything the first time ?

Stupid mistake # 3: After losing the second war, don't attempt it for the third time you silly warmongering, revengedriven arabs.

Stupid mistake # 4: Act as if stupid mistake #1 never happened, and start the process all over again.
     
Splinter
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Nov 4, 2004, 06:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
Israel's green light

Very good article on the continued occupation and destruction of Palestine.
After seeing the source I almost closed the page but you have to give them a chance they cant ALWAYS exagerate things but no... my bad I stopped reading after the first few lines in which "most of the 100 dead were innocent civilians" and the "defensless refugee camps"

The civilian casualties were very high and pisses me off cause its not what either side needs is more dead civilians. But they were not the majority.

as for the defensless refugee camps... depends on if you consider militants with guns and what not firing at you a defence... *shrug*
     
CreepingDeth
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Nov 4, 2004, 07:24 PM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
After seeing the source I almost closed the page but you have to give them a chance they cant ALWAYS exagerate things but no... my bad I stopped reading after the first few lines in which "most of the 100 dead were innocent civilians" and the "defensless refugee camps"

The civilian casualties were very high and pisses me off cause its not what either side needs is more dead civilians. But they were not the majority.

as for the defensless refugee camps... depends on if you consider militants with guns and what not firing at you a defence... *shrug*
Defenseless�compared to a Merkava.


These threads are always humorous.
     
Splinter
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Nov 4, 2004, 08:34 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Defenseless�compared to a Merkava.


These threads are always humorous.
as much as I would love to belive those tanks are invulnerable and such out of foolish pride... you gotta know. They are jsut big hunks of metal ones that will go boom when hit by an RPG perhaps? oh yes the militants have those.

But then look at it another way... would you really send your men into a hostile situation purposfully under protected just to say you didnt have any advantage if a fire fight broke out?
     
CreepingDeth
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Nov 4, 2004, 10:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
as much as I would love to belive those tanks are invulnerable and such out of foolish pride... you gotta know. They are jsut big hunks of metal ones that will go boom when hit by an RPG perhaps? oh yes the militants have those.

But then look at it another way... would you really send your men into a hostile situation purposfully under protected just to say you didnt have any advantage if a fire fight broke out?
Actually, my point was a little more about Logic's view of Israel. A tank is a leviathan compared to a "poor, defenseless civilian," and, at least in Logic's mind, conjures up an image of domination over the "innocent." The tank is supposed to be a symbol.

Of course, Logic is also the man who sees rallies crying "Kill the Jews" for PSM groups, many arms of terrorist groups, as non-racist.
Come on Logic, you know the picture with the deformed Jewish man running to the megaphone after reading about a meeting of those in solidarity of the freedom fighters�aka the PLO.

I sure wish those hunks of metal were invulnerable.
     
Taliesin
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Nov 5, 2004, 05:57 AM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
The tank is supposed to be a symbol.
Eventhough israeli tanks destroy a lot of palestinian property, homes, streets and harvests, I think there are much more dangerous tools used by Israel in the occupied areas: Military airplanes that throw bombs or rockets down are much more lethal than tanks. Tanks are loud and slow and everyone sees them coming and can run away and even can destroy it with a goodaimed anti-tank-grenade, but rockets and bombs from airplanes is a whole other story.

Taliesin
     
Splinter
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Nov 5, 2004, 07:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Eventhough israeli tanks destroy a lot of palestinian property, homes, streets and harvests, I think there are much more dangerous tools used by Israel in the occupied areas: Military airplanes that throw bombs or rockets down are much more lethal than tanks. Tanks are loud and slow and everyone sees them coming and can run away and even can destroy it with a goodaimed anti-tank-grenade, but rockets and bombs from airplanes is a whole other story.

Taliesin
slow? I wouldnt call 60kmph or whatever they do "slow" http://video.nrg.co.il/lib/2004/news/mark4.wmv

nice vid of them moving... unfortunatly in WMV format 8.9mb
     
Taliesin
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Nov 5, 2004, 07:45 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
slow? I wouldnt call 60kmph or whatever they do "slow" http://video.nrg.co.il/lib/2004/news/mark4.wmv

nice vid of them moving... unfortunatly in WMV format 8.9mb
Compared to a jet that has supersonic-speed, that is slow and an attack from that one can come out of nowhere and is way more destructive.

Taliesin
     
Splinter
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Nov 5, 2004, 12:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Compared to a jet that has supersonic-speed, that is slow and an attack from that one can come out of nowhere and is way more destructive.

Taliesin
true but its not how fast it is its how you use it
     
Isaac
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Nov 6, 2004, 03:05 PM
 
yea... but can a F-16 or F-15 even stay airborn at 180 mph?

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Saad
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Nov 6, 2004, 06:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
Israel's green light

Very good article on the continued occupation and destruction of Palestine.
It seems that Israel has given up on defeating the terrorists, and now just hopes that if they kill enough Arabs, some of them might be a terrorist. Kind of funny that accusations of racism are brought up so early in these types of threads, but shunned everywhere else by the same people.
     
Isaac
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Nov 6, 2004, 11:32 PM
 
100 dead, mostly civilians... attacking a non-specific personel target in a densely populated urban area... wouldn't surprise me... I'm not sure if you have a source for saying that of the 100 dead, less then 50 were "innocent" civilians... then of coarse you run into the issue of what's a civilian and what's innocent...

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Saad
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Nov 6, 2004, 11:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Isaac:
100 dead, mostly civilians... attacking a non-specific personel target in a densely populated urban area... wouldn't surprise me... I'm not sure if you have a source for saying that of the 100 dead, less then 50 were "innocent" civilians... then of coarse you run into the issue of what's a civilian and what's innocent...
How many innocent people can Israel afford to kill in its endeavors to protect itself?
     
CreepingDeth
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Nov 6, 2004, 11:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
How many innocent people can Israel afford to kill in its endeavors to protect itself?
How many innocent people blown up by spineless murders does it take for a country to stand up against them?
     
Saad
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Nov 6, 2004, 11:56 PM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
How many innocent people blown up by spineless murders does it take for a country to stand up against them?
How many attacks does it take for a country to realize that attacking an entire society is neither productive or humane?
     
CreepingDeth
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Nov 7, 2004, 12:08 AM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
How many attacks does it take for a country to realize that attacking an entire society is neither productive or humane?
How many people have to be blown up for you to realize who started the whole mess in the first place?
     
Isaac
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Nov 7, 2004, 12:17 AM
 
how many people are willing to die for there cause? I don't just mean fight knowing there is a 1 in 1,000,000 chance that there going to survive; but go into there fight knowing that they are going to die, intending to die.

ohkay, killing non-combatants by people on either side, isn't ohkay, it's bad and reprehensible...

now, I know I'm going to sound like a kindergaten teacher, but that just kinda has to say something about you, but one wrong doesn't justify another...


I just really wish the Palisteinians would get better at killing soilders....

"Capitalism is man exploits man, in communism it's the other way around" -- some guy...
     
CreepingDeth
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Nov 7, 2004, 12:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Isaac:
I just really wish the Palisteinians would get better at killing soilders....
There's the fundamental difference.
Terrorists from Palestine aim for civilians. That's their target. It's like hitting a watermelon with a tennis racket. There's no protection.
Israel tries to attack the terrorists and their leaders. Now obviously, they have more firepower, but it is necessary since the terrorists are hidden in buildings, not in public areas or on buses.

Now you tell me who;s being the real bad guy.
     
Saad
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Nov 7, 2004, 12:31 AM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
How many people have to be blown up for you to realize who started the whole mess in the first place?
And how many years will it take a self-proclaimed humane state to see the ineffectiveness of targetting civillians. I wish Israel would get better at serving its own residents, rather than attacking them.

Perhaps some day, Israelis and Palestinians can coexist in two friendly and progressive states, from the west bank of the river Jordan, to the Mediterranean Sea. It'll take a dramatic change on either side, but those changes cannot occur when an entire society is under siege.
     
Saad
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Nov 7, 2004, 12:35 AM
 
Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
There's the fundamental difference.
Terrorists from Palestine aim for civilians. That's their target. It's like hitting a watermelon with a tennis racket. There's no protection.
Israel tries to attack the terrorists and their leaders. Now obviously, they have more firepower, but it is necessary since the terrorists are hidden in buildings, not in public areas or on buses.

Now you tell me who;s being the real bad guy.
From the statistics, it would appear that Israel is the badder of the two:

     
Splinter
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Nov 7, 2004, 06:26 AM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
From the statistics, it would appear that Israel is the badder of the two:

American civilians targeted and killed in 911? almost 3000 was it?
How many civilians have lost thier lives in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Just because one side has more deaths, depending on the situation, has little to no part in the judgement on who is justified in the conflict or "bad guys/good guys".
     
PacHead
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Nov 7, 2004, 06:38 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
Just because one side has more deaths, depending on the situation, has little to no part in the judgement on who is justified in the conflict or "bad guys/good guys".
A silly, statistical graph over "deaths" means nothing.

If one side = good and the other side = bad, then the ratio can be 1:1,000,000 for all I care. Look at amount of American deaths in WW2 compared to German deaths. Using the pro-palestinian, pro-terrorist logic, then those lovable Nazis were the "good" side, while we, the Allies were "bad", since a whole lot more Germans bit the dust, millions more as a matter of fact.

It's a good thing that the Palestinian bar is taller than the Israeli one.
     
Splinter
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Nov 7, 2004, 06:43 AM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
A silly, statistical graph over "deaths" means nothing.

If one side = good and the other side = bad, then the ratio can be 1:1,000,000 for all I care. Look at amount of American deaths in WW2 compared to German deaths. Using the pro-palestinian, pro-terrorist logic, then those lovable Nazis were the "good" side, while we, the Allies were "bad", since a whole lot more Germans bit the dust, millions more as a matter of fact.

It's a good thing that the Palestinian bar is taller than the Israeli one.
well actually depends if you include the jews and others killed in the concentration camps... but yeah I get what you mean.

However if the ratio was 1:1,000,000 to begin with I doubt we would have to hunt down many terrorists over one death
     
PacHead
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Nov 7, 2004, 06:53 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
well actually depends if you include the jews and others killed in the concentration camps... but yeah I get what you mean.

However if the ratio was 1:1,000,000 to begin with I doubt we would have to hunt down many terrorists over one death
Yes, true, I was thinking just about American deaths. Of course, if one were to tally all Allied deaths, and civilian deaths, concentration camps etc. then that figure is in the tens of millions of course.

And yes, my 1:1,000,000 ratio was a slight exaggeration.
     
Saad
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Nov 7, 2004, 04:25 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
A silly, statistical graph over "deaths" means nothing.

If one side = good and the other side = bad, then the ratio can be 1:1,000,000 for all I care. Look at amount of American deaths in WW2 compared to German deaths. Using the pro-palestinian, pro-terrorist logic, then those lovable Nazis were the "good" side, while we, the Allies were "bad", since a whole lot more Germans bit the dust, millions more as a matter of fact.

It's a good thing that the Palestinian bar is taller than the Israeli one.
There have been far more Palestinian civillian deaths than there have been Israeli deaths. Israel's actions do not inspire younf Palestinians to submit to its authority. The Intifada has lasted for more than a decade, but neither side has clearly defeated the other. Despite Israel's huge resources, it is unable to stop the war. How many 'geurilla' wars has a major power been able to win in the past century?
     
Splinter
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Nov 7, 2004, 05:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
There have been far more Palestinian civillian deaths than there have been Israeli deaths. Israel's actions do not inspire younf Palestinians to submit to its authority. The Intifada has lasted for more than a decade, but neither side has clearly defeated the other. Despite Israel's huge resources, it is unable to stop the war. How many 'geurilla' wars has a major power been able to win in the past century?
Unable? without commiting mass genocide yeah considering where the terrorists reside and hide out. but unable? that like saying you cannot jump off a cliff... you can. but your just not stupid enough.
     
Isaac
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Nov 8, 2004, 01:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
There have been far more Palestinian civillian deaths than there have been Israeli deaths. Israel's actions do not inspire younf Palestinians to submit to its authority. The Intifada has lasted for more than a decade, but neither side has clearly defeated the other. Despite Israel's huge resources, it is unable to stop the war. How many 'geurilla' wars has a major power been able to win in the past century?
Soviet Union Vs. Hungrey 1956
Soviet Union+Germany+Austria+remaints of the white army+others vs. Ukrainian anarchist 1917-1921
Spainish Fascist+German Army+Italian Army+British arms+Soviet arms+US arms vs Spanish Anarchist 1936-1939
US arms+british troops+greek troops vs. greek communist and anarchist
US troops+US backed and armed dictators vs. just about every latin american country
Saddam Hussein+US/UK military aid+US/UK targeting of mutinying troops vs. Iraqi insurgencys

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