[von Wrangell]

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/st...937059,00.html

I'm sure this will cheer some of the Islamophobes up, but I hope the moderates will be able to bring this up and discuss it.

I have to say that IMO it's unbelievable that an elected official would say this and not retract it. It shows too well the direction the US is taking.

[Atomic Rooster]

"Facing mounting criticism, Rep. Tom Tancredo on Monday refused to apologize for suggesting the United States could target Muslim holy sites if radical Islamic terrorists set off multiple nuclear attacks in American cities."

I would think Muslim countries would cease to exist.

And I'm a Libby.

[yakkiebah]

You can download a piece of the interview here.

I need to get off this planet, fast. There are too many idiots on this one.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

You can download a piece of the interview here.

I need to get off this planet, fast. There are too many idiots on this one.

Nah. They just get louder from time to time. This guy isn't much worse than the whole Alabama legislature that once voted overwhelmingly to establish the value of pi as 3.00.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Nah. They just get louder from time to time. This guy isn't much worse than the whole Alabama legislature that once voted overwhelmingly to establish the value of pi as 3.00.

Please tell me this is a joke

[Weyland-Yutani]

Funny thing is that there is a limit to what the Western world can and will take. I agree with Atomic rooster, that if the psychopath "islamics" will cross the line muslim countries will cease to exist. Multiple atomic detonations in major western cities would be crossing that line for instance.

This is not something the islamic nutters will do of course, it doesn't serve their interests to get wiped out. They are into terrorism (i.e. creating fear) not an all out war against the West. Even though they like to talk big like that.

cheers

W-Y

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Please tell me this is a joke

I'm not sure if ghporter meant it as a joke, but it isn't true.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Funny thing is that there is a limit to what the Western world can and will take. I agree with Atomic rooster, that if the psychopath "islamics" will cross the line muslim countries will cease to exist. Multiple atomic detonations in major western cities would be crossing that line for instance.

This is not something the islamic nutters will do of course, it doesn't serve their interests to get wiped out. They are into terrorism (i.e. creating fear) not an all out war against the West. Even though they like to talk big like that.

cheers

W-Y

I have to disagree. One of the major gripes they have is that the majority of Muslims aren't taking their side. If this(bombing Mecca) would be the official policy Al Qaida & co would do everything they possibly could to do something to make the US do that. Because the second the US would do that we would have WWIII on our hands and it would mean the end of the world as we know it. An escalation like that is something the OBL crew(and unfortunately the extreme right in the West) wants. USA(or anyone else) bombing Mecca would make every single Muslim on this world rise up against the West. And that is exactly what OBL wants

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I have to disagree. One of the major gripes they have is that the majority of Muslims aren't taking their side. If this(bombing Mecca) would be the official policy Al Qaida & co would do everything they possibly could to do something to make the US do that. Because the second the US would do that we would have WWIII on our hands and it would mean the end of the world as we know it. An escalation like that is something the OBL crew(and unfortunately the extreme right in the West) wants. USA(or anyone else) bombing Mecca would make every single Muslim on this world rise up against the West. And that is exactly what OBL wants

A sovereign nation has much to lose in farking with the US. A crazed ideologue bent on sacrificing himself and everyone else for his religious belief has only the icons of that belief to fear losing.

When it was thought NOTHING would stop these fanatics or could possibly deter them, we find there IS something after all.

Ahhh, Mutually Assured Destruction, my old friend. How have you been???

So, now we can all settle in to a decades long crouch, duck and cover as we say farewell to the nightmarish scenario depicted in the movie, FAILSAFE and hello to a new nightmare.

FEZ-SAFE???

[loki74]

You know, normally I'd say "fine, bomb the hell out of them!" But not all muslims are fanatical anti-American, anti-freedom, etc. (ie a number of them put fatwas or whatever on the terrorists). those people arent bad, but the holy places are still significant to them.

If all islamics were extremists/terrorists/terror sympathizers, then sure, blow up all the places. But alas it is not that simple.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Please tell me this is a joke

A very bad one that floated around for a LONG time. Check here for the details. Suffice to say that it rang true when it came out WAY before the Internet sighting on Snopes. Note their reference to a mention of the Tennessee lege doing the same thing in Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land," which came out in the early '60s. The point is that it is extremely easy to believe a state legislator would come up with this sort of stupidity, and even easier to believe that a bunch of 'em would vote for it. Point of my mentioning it? It is the loud and idiotic that we notice, while the thoughtful and intelligent go without this sort of sensational notice. Case in point, Rep. Tom Tancredo, who is even as we speak bringing humiliation and scorn upon his constituents. Way to go TOM!™

[CreepingDeth]

Um…yeah, if any terrorist bastard sets off an explosion much larger than 9/11 in a large American city, or a chem/bio/nuclear attack of equal proportions, here will be at least threats to destroy Mecha. I'm sorry, but if they think they're going to usher in some worldwide Islamic Revolution by killing tens of thousands of people, then bombing one of their holiest sites is not out of the question. We've bombed beautiful monasteries, churches and whatnot in the past…what makes this any different? It's just a building. Even when you say the same thing about some Christian city it is still within reason. Suppose the Vatican turns out to hold a bunch of killer aliens or something (just play along, ) and they attack large cities like New York or London. Well…it's just a cathedral. If bombing it will make a point or limit their offensive abilities, or even their morale, then…tell me when to press the button.

[ghporter]

We DO NOT bomb religious sites just because they are religious sites. Monte Casino was full of German soldiers who were, in direct violation of the Geneva and Hague conventions, using the monastery as a fortress. Note that we did not bomb or even fire on the various mosques that insurgents and Fedayeen Sadam fighters holed up in and SHOT AT OUR TROOPS FROM, even though such activities remove the protected status of religious sites.

However, that does not mean that places that harbor the planners or perpetrators of such attacks would be spared. Mecca is off limits for many reasons. Some jerkwater village that harbors the big bosses of some al Qaida cell squatting in a mud hut is NOT at all off limits. Think Tom Clancy here...

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by ghporter

A very bad one that floated around for a LONG time. Check here for the details. Suffice to say that it rang true when it came out WAY before the Internet sighting on Snopes. Note their reference to a mention of the Tennessee lege doing the same thing in Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land," which came out in the early '60s. The point is that it is extremely easy to believe a state legislator would come up with this sort of stupidity, and even easier to believe that a bunch of 'em would vote for it. Point of my mentioning it? It is the loud and idiotic that we notice, while the thoughtful and intelligent go without this sort of sensational notice. Case in point, Rep. Tom Tancredo, who is even as we speak bringing humiliation and scorn upon his constituents. Way to go TOM!™

Humiliation and scorn???

Methinks you are bending over a bit too far in your attempt to be fair and earnest. There's much to be gained (as any observer of the Reagan administration would attest) by not taking any response off the table.

That's bad poker.

Besides, who else has anything to offer that might possibly give nuclear terrorists reason to stop before we see Houston or Denver or St. Louis or D.C. or...vaporized?

Certainly the thought hasn't escaped OBL. And MAYBE, JUST MAYBE he has positioned these guys with these suitcase nukes in the US cities as a pre-emptive deterrent.

How would the US, even in it's most Cowboyish moment, possibly THINK of attacking Median or Mecca, for example, knowing our cities would go up, like (snaps finger) that!

[Macrobat]

This thread is a blatant troll, Logic. Tancredo has no real power to "promise" anything of the sort. He gave his personal opinion what the US should do if Islamist Terrorists successfully nuked anything in America.

Get real.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

This thread is a blatant troll, Logic. Tancredo has no real power to "promise" anything of the sort. He gave his personal opinion what the US should do if Islamist Terrorists successfully nuked anything in America.

Get real.

Did I say promise?

I brought this up because I'm amazed an elected official would say irresponsible things like this.

[Macrobat]

Not irresponsible in the least. He was given a nightmare hypothetical situation, with no preparation or forethought, and he gave his personal opinion off-the-cuff, what he would do.

Again, nice try.

Where, exactly, do you store this righteous indignation of yours every single time an Islamist terrorist actually does bomb a church or synagogue, or one of your fellow Muslims knifes to death one of your own Holy Men, or stores his weapons in and makes use of these very same religious sites as a redoubt or ammo dump?

[NaplesX]

This kind of thing needs to be said so that US friendly muslim countries will realize the "terrorists" are hurting them and putting them in jeopardy. It's hard enough to separate the "terrorists" from the terrorist supporting nations and governments.

Read my blog at http://insideiraq.blogspot.com to see how the majority of Iraqis feel about the US, strait from a soldier that's been there and interacted with the people. It's always a small percentage of the population that ruins things for everyone.

[CreepingDeth]

[Judges, does that qualify as getting owned?]

[mitchell_pgh]

The great thing about terrorism is... after a nuclear attack from a terrorist group, every country that has been aiding them will say "wasn't us, and we condemn the attacks" while people cheer in the streets.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Nah. They just get louder from time to time. This guy isn't much worse than the whole Alabama legislature that once voted overwhelmingly to establish the value of pi as 3.00.

Stupidity still multiplies. By 3, and not 3.14159...

[Mark Larr]

Here is a heartwarming piece.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ror/index.html

[Wiskedjak]

What sort of strategic value would be gained by bombing a religious site? The only value I can see is for revenge and will only serve to generate a global version of the Israeli/Palestine tit-for-tat attacks.

[CreepingDeth]

I think I agree with Atomic Rooster for once. Logic, you're being sort of an ass, if I may say so. How many people do you think would die from several nuclear explosions in large cities? Millions? And I'm not even counting cancer and fallout effects. You know something's gonna get a bunch of daisy cutters if a million people die.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

What sort of strategic value would be gained by bombing a religious site? The only value I can see is for revenge and will only serve to generate a global version of the Israeli/Palestine tit-for-tat attacks.

Well... If you bomb mecca then all the islamics will start fighting - it'll be all-out war. Once this war is over, the problems associated with islamic terrorism will be gone forever.

[Wiskedjak]

Or the problems associated with America will be gone forever ...

Or, the problems associated with the Earth will be gon forever ...

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Or the problems associated with America will be gone forever ...

What, you mean freedom and stuff?
I concur.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy

What, you mean freedom and stuff?
I concur.

What I mean is there is no guarantee that the US would win such a war. The US military is extremely effective at indentifiable targets, but there would be few such targets in this war (which is possibly what leads to the identification of religious sites as potential targets)

Most likely, both sides would lose.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

What I mean is there is no guarantee that the US would win such a war. The US military is extremely effective at indentifiable targets, but there would be few such targets in this war (which is possibly what leads to the identification of religious sites as potential targets)

Most likely, both sides would lose.

I don't believe that you've quite imagined what this war would entail. It'd be right on your doorstep, you against your neighbour, not restricted to military targets hit by military personnel.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I don't believe that you've quite imagined what this war would entail. It'd be right on your doorstep, you against your neighbour, not restricted to military targets hit by military personnel.

Exactly. That's not the kind of war that the US can win easily ... if at all. You will be fighting people willing to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

Not irresponsible in the least. He was given a nightmare hypothetical situation, with no preparation or forethought, and he gave his personal opinion off-the-cuff, what he would do.

Again, nice try.

And he's an elected official which would then probably work towards this policy incase it happens. Again, it's irresponsible and dangerous. Not to mention disrespectful to the Muslims living inside America as peaceful lawful citizens.

Where, exactly, do you store this righteous indignation of yours every single time an Islamist terrorist actually does bomb a church or synagogue, or one of your fellow Muslims knifes to death one of your own Holy Men, or stores his weapons in and makes use of these very same religious sites as a redoubt or ammo dump?

To my Muslims friends and colleagues. I don't need to p.m. you and tell you about it. You're not that important to me.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by CreepingDeth

I think I agree with Atomic Rooster for once. Logic, you're being sort of an ass, if I may say so. How many people do you think would die from several nuclear explosions in large cities? Millions? And I'm not even counting cancer and fallout effects. You know something's gonna get a bunch of daisy cutters if a million people die.

If I'm being an arse when worrying about innocent civilians then so be it. If I'm being an arse when worrying about the response a comment like this can bring then so be it. If I'm being an arse in trying to make sure this will never be done because there are about 1.5 billion Muslims in this world and the majority of them would never accept attacks like those mentioned in this thread then so be it.

At least I am an arse who understands history and the importance of religious symbols. Something you Americans obviously don't understand(as long as it isn't Christian symbols).


Tell me, what would be gained from bombing Mecca and Madinah?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Exactly. That's not the kind of war that the US can win easily ... if at all. You will be fighting people willing to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in

Unfortunately that is exactly the war Sherwin wants. If this happened his dream of expelling all Muslims from "his" country and the slaughter of millions(actually the whole of 1.5 billion) Muslims around the world would come true.

And now just watch him not deny anything I said in this post and at best try to spin it.

[Millennium]

This is one of the more idiotic ideas I've ever heard. The terrorists wouldn't care much, even if Mecca is leveled. My old catchphrase describing them as 'false Muslims on a false jihad' comes to mind. Of course, real Muslims would care, and even Bush isn't stupid enough to incur their wrath. Others have mentioned World War III, and although that has been predicted (and never panned out) many times, I think this is one of those things which really could touch off such a horror.

All of this said, life would go on, even for real Muslims. The important artifacts would be recovered, museum/temples would be built on or very near the site to house them, sites for the other rituals would be rebuilt, and the hajj would be back up and running within a year or two. Those who died during that time period having never completed the hajj would face no penalty according to their faith; Islam forgives those who genuinely cannot make the pilgrimage and "Mecca not having been rebuilt yet" would certainly qualify as a valid reason.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Unfortunately that is exactly the war Sherwin wants. If this happened his dream of expelling all Muslims from "his" country and the slaughter of millions(actually the whole of 1.5 billion) Muslims around the world would come true.

And now just watch him not deny anything I said in this post and at best try to spin it.

Expelling you guys from my country? No, my continent. Just like we had to 1,000 years ago when you took a bite out of Spain.

And I'm not into slaughter. I'd prefer it if you guys stopped your invasion and just stuck to your own lands (and we'll stick to ours).

Now, here's a question for you to try and spin the answer to:
Do you wish for all of the World to be under allah's control (i.e. islam is the only religion everywhere)?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'd prefer it if you guys stopped your invasion and just stuck to your own lands (and we'll stick to ours).

Europe?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Europe?

And the Americas, I guess. The invasion of the western world by islam will, sooner or later, lead to pain all around.

(note: I have no problem with other religions in the west. But then I haven't heard of a Sikh, Hindu or Buddhist suicide bomber yet)

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Expelling you guys from my country? No, my continent. Just like we had to 1,000 years ago when you took a bite out of Spain.

And I'm not into slaughter. I'd prefer it if you guys stopped your invasion and just stuck to your own lands (and we'll stick to ours).

Now, here's a question for you to try and spin the answer to:
Do you wish for all of the World to be under allah's control (i.e. islam is the only religion everywhere)?

What makes Europe a Christian continent? There were religions here before. "Your" continent as a Christian is the area around Betlehem and Jerusalem. Is that what you mean?

The World is already under God's control. But if you are referring to Islam then yes. I'd like the whole world to revert to Islam.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And the Americas, I guess.

The Americas are only "your lands" by invasion. It's kinda silly to ask Muslims to stop what you perceive to be an invasion of the lands that you invaded first.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And the Americas, I guess. The invasion of the western world by islam will, sooner or later, lead to pain all around.

(note: I have no problem with other religions in the west. But then I haven't heard of a Sikh, Hindu or Buddhist suicide bomber yet)

Yeah, don't you just hate freedom of religion. Such freedoms can only harm Europe in the long run.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Now, here's a question for you to try and spin the answer to:
Do you wish for all of the World to be under allah's control (i.e. islam is the only religion everywhere)?

Now, here's a question for you to try and spin the answer to:
Do you wish for all the world to be under American control? (ie: democracy and capitalism everywhere?)

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The World is already under God's control. But if you are referring to Islam then yes. I'd like the whole world to revert to Islam.

See, there ya go.
What do you think is going to happen when your unstoppable force meets the west's immovable object?

Oh... ...and "revert" to islam? You're obviously delusional.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yeah, don't you just hate freedom of religion. Such freedoms can only harm Europe in the long run.

Perhaps you should be beaten about the head and shoulders with a copy of the US Constitution, then you just might assmiliate the knowledge through osmosis that the United States, not Europe, has always been a champion of religious freedom. Or maybe you should simply pay attention tot he FACT that your Muslim brethren here have MORE freedom than even the Islamic practitioners in the ME.

But then, you couldn't engage in a little gratuitous America-bashing, could you? But, then again, you've never been one to let a little something like facts stand in your way.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Now, here's a question for you to try and spin the answer to:
Do you wish for all the world to be under American control? (ie: democracy and capitalism everywhere?)

No.
Just my little bit of it. There's enough room on this rock for different ideologies - I just don't think that certain ones mix (so should be kept apart).

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

See, there ya go.
What do you think is going to happen when your unstoppable force meets the west's immovable object?

Oh... ...and "revert" to islam? You're obviously delusional.

What do you mean by "immovable object"?

And again you turn to the personal attacks. What a surprise. Muslims believe that every single human born is a Muslim. Meaning a child born is pure. I know this might come as a surprise for you who believe every child born is un-pure and full of sin but hey, that's just a difference between our religions.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Yeah, don't you just hate freedom of religion.

Like they have in muslim countries?



Admit it Logic - if you had your way every religion except islam would be outlawed.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

Perhaps you should be beaten about the head and shoulders with a copy of the US Constitution, then you just might assmiliate the knowledge through osmosis that the United States, not Europe, has always been a champion of religious freedom. Or maybe you should simply pay attention tot he FACT that your Muslim brethren here have MORE freedom than even the Islamic practitioners in the ME.

But then, you couldn't engage in a little gratuitous America-bashing, could you? But, then again, you've never been one to let a little something like facts stand in your way.

Did you quote the wrong post or? I said nothing about America. There's no need to be so insecure.

If there is anyone that should be beaten about the head with the US constitution it's Sherwin. He's the one against freedom of religion. Not me.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Like they have in muslim countries?



Admit it Logic - if you had your way every religion except islam would be outlawed.

No. Outlawing it wouldn't make sense. People wouldn't believe just because it's the law that you should be a Muslim. It wouldn't help anyone.

Now, do you consider freedom of religion to be a bad thing? Or do you just believe that everyone who converts to a certain religion should move to an area with a majority of people of that religion?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

What do you mean by "immovable object"?

What do you think I mean?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And again you turn to the personal attacks. What a surprise.

So calling you delusional is a personal attack? You're a bit sensitive these days aren't you?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Muslims believe that every single human born is a Muslim.

If you believed that there'd be no need to affirm your religious affiliation in front of witnesses, would there?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

What do you think I mean?

I was thinking about something but that would probably lead to this thread being locked and I don't want that as I think it's important for people to see what you say. It's a good reminder for people that racism and bigotry still exists in Europe.

So calling you delusional is a personal attack? You're a bit sensitive these days aren't you?

How is it not a personal attack?

If you believed that there'd be no need to affirm your religious affiliation in front of witnesses, would there?

You just don't understand why it is done. But that is in line with most of your knowledge about Islam. Nothing new here