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Downtown Toronto - 40ish arrested today so far, police cars torched. (Pix) (Page 2)
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subego
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Jun 28, 2010, 12:16 PM
 
Assuming this was precipitated by anarchists though, and not some sort of agents provocateur or just "assholists", one would presume they were of the (self-identified, mind you) left-leaning varieties. No?
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 28, 2010, 12:34 PM
 
Perhaps to a certain extent, but we were specifically correcting his incorrect suggestion about "no government" = left and "communists". Anyways, some probably are left anarchists, but many are probably just assholes looking to do some damage without any true ideologic purpose would be my guess. Anyways, most lefties, and even most communists aren't anarchists obviously.

We'll find out more once they actually get prosecuted. Over 900 people were arrested, but only a handful will likely get prosecuted.

The point here is not to paint people with the same brush, which is what some are trying to do. I personally don't have a huge problem with flower-child type communists for example, as long as they stay out of people's way, and don't expect handouts from the government so they can sit on their asses and sing kumbaya.

ie. I support the right to protest peacefully, regardless of ideologic persuasion. One of the policewomen on her beat interviewed on TV said it best. It went something like this: "We support peaceful protest. I am a woman, and I can vote, because some brave women in history protested for my vote. Therefore I understand the importance of peaceful protest. However, I am also a member of the police. We have to protect the public, and we will do all that we can to protect ourselves and the public from the violent hooligans." No mention of communists. No mention of fascists.

Speaking of flowers... I hate to admit it but... When I saw the police marching through the public parks driving the protestors back, the very first thing I thought of was all the poor flowers being trampled. Lame I know...
( Last edited by Eug; Jun 28, 2010 at 01:00 PM. )
     
besson3c
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Jun 29, 2010, 02:21 AM
 
Check out this protester, guys... Crazy:

YouTube - Retail Rage - Eaton's Center closed, guy has meltdown


I guess he doesn't understand that a private business can close their doors whenever they want providing that they are not discriminating against particular races/genders/sexes/etc.?
     
Phileas
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Jun 29, 2010, 06:43 AM
 
Awesome. Nothing like an aging Queen with retail rage.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 29, 2010, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Perhaps to a certain extent, but we were specifically correcting his incorrect suggestion about "no government" = left and "communists".
If by "correcting his incorrect suggestion about no government = left" you are referring to me, you are inserting words into my posts that I never wrote. I never claimed that all anarchists are left-wing. I simply pointed out to besson that anarchism and leftism are not mutually exclusive as he claimed, and as evidence I pointed to Marxist utopian communism which is anarchistic and also left wing.

As was pointed out anarcho-capitalism is an example of ideologically right-wing anarchy; I never claimed there can't be anarchy on the right. It's just very unusual to see pure anarcho-capitalists. Very pure libertarian thought comes close, but most of the time it still envisions some very limited role for government. Pure anarchy on the right is rare In comparison to left-wing anarchists who, I would argue, can be seen at every one of these international economic cooperation forums.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 29, 2010, 07:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
aging Queen
I hate to admit it, but that very same thought popped into my mind too.

And that kid in the grey shirt just kills me. Icing on the cake.
     
Phileas
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Jun 29, 2010, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I hate to admit it, but that very same thought popped into my mind too.
Uncle Monty.
     
subego
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Jun 29, 2010, 09:42 AM
 
We want to shop!
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 29, 2010, 11:29 AM
 
Captured weapons.





Cordless drill?
     
macaddict0001
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Jun 29, 2010, 11:50 PM
 
I'm guessing the drill was found with some actual weapons, or was being used incorrectly.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
 
I dunno. You could whack someone pretty hard over the head with a cordless drill ...

     
-Q-
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Jun 30, 2010, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Captured weapons.

WTF is up with those arrows? Was Green Arrow a part of the protest?

     
besson3c
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Jun 30, 2010, 12:12 AM
 
Why hasn't there been a Green Arrow movie make and/or modern remake? I would like to see Matt Damon be Green Arrow.
     
subego
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Jun 30, 2010, 12:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Cordless drill?
Don't take another move copper, or the drywall gets it!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 30, 2010, 03:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why hasn't there been a Green Arrow movie make and/or modern remake? I would like to see Matt Damon be Green Arrow.


MATT DAMON.

(heh)
     
Koralatov
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Jun 30, 2010, 03:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Because the Left is associated with violent, disorderly riots. Some leftists use similar tactics, have similar goals and openly ally themselves with the "anarchists." I call them anarchists because their obvious goal is to destroy property and harm civil society.
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
1. Regarding abortion clinic bombers, that's a pretty rare phenomenon that has become even rarer in recent years, aside from a couple of high profile slayings and ensuing murder trials. There are only a handful of violent abortion incidents listed on Wikipedia, and the phenomenon is predominately an American one. In contrast, violent anarchist-leftist protests happen every single G20 meeting internationally.

2. My search of right-wing violent protesters didn't yield much at all. The majority of the hits referenced white supremacist marches, and given their affinity for the National Socialist Party I don't consider them right-wing at all. They're not on the far right, as the liberal media likes to claim. In actuality they are on the far left-wing of the spectrum and have much more in common with other violent leftists. The only meaningful distinction is that they have at their core racist agendas that aren't found overtly among the normative radical left.
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Eug, are you and besson one and the same by any chance? There's nothing pseudo about my analyses. Besides, it's your thread that's pointing to all the violence. I'm just framing it in the proper political context.
I was going to try to argue with you, but the above makes it patently clear that this would be a complete waste of my time and yours. I will, however, say that it’s total hypocrisy to conflate anarchists with the left whilst simultaneous making spurious, bullshit distinctions like “their affinity for the National Socialist Party I don't consider them right-wing at all”. If that helps you sleep better at night, go for it, but the distinction you make there is total horseshit.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
[…] Correction. You are just framing it in your own predetermined political beliefs.

Since you seem to want to harp on this, I would suggest starting a new thread in the poli-war forum.
Amen.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Check out this protester, guys... Crazy:

YouTube - Retail Rage - Eaton's Center closed, guy has meltdown
That. Is. Awesome. If I ever get caught in the middle of a G8 and/or G20 protest, I’m definitely going to throw a hissy-fit because my favourite shop is closed.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Don't take another move copper, or the drywall gets it!
Also awesome. Perhaps not wise, though: they could add property damage and carrying out structural works without a license to the list of charges against you.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 30, 2010, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
I will, however, say that it’s total hypocrisy to conflate anarchists with the left whilst simultaneous making spurious, bullshit distinctions like “their affinity for the National Socialist Party I don't consider them right-wing at all”. If that helps you sleep better at night, go for it, but the distinction you make there is total horseshit.
Uh, on what rational basis do you make that claim? All you posted there in response to me is angry rhetoric. Calling my words "bullshit distinctions" don't make them so. Calling them "horseshit" do not make them so. I don't see any underlying argument here. I'll restate what I wrote previously: White supremacists usually embrace Nazism. Nazism is explicitly Socialism. Therefore, calling Nazi white supremacists "ultra-right" is invalid. Do you have an actual argument against that line of thinking, or is the only thing you can do is call things "bullshit" and "horseshit." I'm seeing a recurring theme around here right now - people who don't agree with me call my ideas shit, but they don't have any substantive arguments against my arguments. Interesting.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 30, 2010, 04:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Uh, on what rational basis do you make that claim? All you posted there in response to me is angry rhetoric. Calling my words "bullshit distinctions" don't make them so. Calling them "horseshit" do not make them so. I don't see any underlying argument here. I'll restate what I wrote previously: White supremacists usually embrace Nazism. Nazism is explicitly Socialism. Therefore, calling Nazi white supremacists "ultra-right" is invalid. Do you have an actual argument against that line of thinking, or is the only thing you can do is call things "bullshit" and "horseshit." I'm seeing a recurring theme around here right now - people who don't agree with me call my ideas shit, but they don't have any substantive arguments against my arguments. Interesting.
This doesn't belong here.

And we've been over this a dozen times.

But National Socialism was CALLED "socialism" solely and explicitly to make it appealing to the people who were jilted and felt that nobody cared for them. The idea of a fascist state, rigidly and hierarchically controlled by a strong leader, and actual SOCIALISM, which proposes equal rights and duties for all (according to needs and capabilities), are diametrically opposed.

Fascism is a right-wing ideology, regardless of what it's CALLED. The People's Republic of North Korea is neither the people's, nor a republic.



What obviously confuses people like you again and again is that you believe that the political spectrum is a straight line, with two extremes.

It's not. The political spectrum is a circle, and both extremes - the left and the right, meet up at the back, right around near Stalinism.
     
besson3c
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Jun 30, 2010, 05:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post


MATT DAMON.

(heh)

If Matt Damon wouldn't take on this role, another good option might be Jeff Goldblum.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2010, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
And we've been over this a dozen times.
And you've been wrong every time.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
But National Socialism was CALLED "socialism" solely and explicitly to make it appealing to the people who were jilted and felt that nobody cared for them. The idea of a fascist state, rigidly and hierarchically controlled by a strong leader, and actual SOCIALISM, which proposes equal rights and duties for all (according to needs and capabilities), are diametrically opposed.
Man, go read the 25-point plan. If they still let you do that kind of thing.
Note point 9.

Then check to see if 7, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 are in any way compatible with what you perceive to be "right wing" thought.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Fascism is a right-wing ideology, regardless of what it's CALLED.
No no no.
We've been through this.

left/collectivism <-----------------------------> right/individualism

That's all there is.

Let's go to ye olde inventor of facism himself, Il Duce...
Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato
Does that sound even remotely like your average small-government conservative outlook?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Koralatov
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Jun 30, 2010, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Uh, on what rational basis do you make that claim? All you posted there in response to me is angry rhetoric. Calling my words "bullshit distinctions" don't make them so. Calling them "horseshit" do not make them so. I don't see any underlying argument here. I'll restate what I wrote previously: White supremacists usually embrace Nazism. Nazism is explicitly Socialism. Therefore, calling Nazi white supremacists "ultra-right" is invalid. Do you have an actual argument against that line of thinking, or is the only thing you can do is call things "bullshit" and "horseshit." I'm seeing a recurring theme around here right now - people who don't agree with me call my ideas shit, but they don't have any substantive arguments against my arguments. Interesting.
I say again (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
I was going to try to argue with you, but the above makes it patently clear that this would be a complete waste of my time and yours.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 30, 2010, 08:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
That. Is. Awesome. If I ever get caught in the middle of a G8 and/or G20 protest, I’m definitely going to throw a hissy-fit because my favourite shop is closed.
Mall actually. Mind you the Apple Store is in that mall. Perhaps he wanted an iPad real bad? Not the iPhone 4 cuz it's not yet available in Canada.

     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 30, 2010, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No no no.
We've been through this.

left/collectivism <-----------------------------> right/individualism

That's all there is.
     
Phileas
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Jun 30, 2010, 08:52 AM
 
Enough of this political BS.

Looks like the Toronto police is increasingly ending up with egg on their face. The "weapons" displayed in the picture that Eug posted were, apparently, confiscated from a war reenactment group. Ouch.



In addition it turns out that the cops purposefully and knowingly broke the law when arresting people who were getting close to the security fence.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 30, 2010, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Nazism is explicitly Socialism.
So, Nazism is "socialism" because its founders were smart enough to NAME it "national socialism".

But words are such fickle things, aren't they?

You see, oddly, Hitler LOVED railing on the Bolshevists, often equating them with "the Jew" or claiming that they were secretly controlled by a Jewish conspiracy. (It's all over "Mein Kampf" if you can stomach wading through that heap of condensed bullshit.)

Hitler HATED Communists. In fact, he threw every one he could find into concentration camps. (A distant relative of mine was jailed for running a bar in which a handful of Communists had allegedly met on occasion.)

National Socialism was expressly and fervently ANTI-Bolshevik.

Socialism and Fascism came from completely OPPOSITE ends of the political spectrum and met round the back.

Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Britannica
Fascism, in its National Socialist form, was primarily a counterrevolutionary movement that mobilized middle- and lower middle-class groups to pursue nationalistic and militaristic goals and whose sole principle of organization was obedience to the Führer. By contrast, Soviet communism grew out of a revolutionary theory of society, pursued the goal of revolutionary overthrow of capitalist systems internationally, and employed the complex bureaucratic structures of the Communist Party as mechanisms of governmental organization.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 30, 2010, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Enough of this political BS.
Sorry, yes.

Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Looks like the Toronto police is increasingly ending up with egg on their face. The "weapons" displayed in the picture that Eug posted were, apparently, confiscated from a war reenactment group. Ouch.


Wrong place, wrong time.
     
ThinkInsane
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Jun 30, 2010, 10:08 AM
 
And off it goes...
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 30, 2010, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Looks like the Toronto police is increasingly ending up with egg on their face. The "weapons" displayed in the picture that Eug posted were, apparently, confiscated from a war reenactment group. Ouch.
Yes and no. For example, the foam capped arrows were from the role playing guy as was the chain mail suit (obviously), but the machete wasn't.

'Weapons' seized in G20 arrests not what they seem - The Globe and Mail

However, the arrows belong to Brian Barrett, a 25-year-old landscaper who was heading to a role-playing fantasy game when he was stopped at Union Station on Saturday morning. Police took his jousting gear but let Mr. Barrett go, saying it was a case of bad timing.

In addition to the arrows – which Mr. Barrett made safe for live-action role playing by cutting off the pointy ends and attaching a bit of pool noodle covered in socks – police displayed his metal body armour, foam shields and several clubs made of plastic tubing covered with foam and fabric.

Mr. Barrett said he was “appalled” at the placement of his chain-mail beneath a machete. He regularly takes public transit from his Whitby, Ont., home to Centennial Park to play the game, called Amtgard, while wearing the 85-pound armour and is worried people will think: “Oh my God, that’s one of the terrorists from G20.”

Police also displayed a crossbow and chainsaw seized in an incident on Friday that they said had no ties to the summit. When asked, Chief Blair acknowledged they were unrelated, but said “everything else” had been confiscated from demonstrators.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 30, 2010, 10:25 AM
 
As expected, given what was in the thread, the thread has been moved into poli-war.

Anyways, I found this ironic. Smash the evil corporate buildings… and pick up some swag:



I guess it's nice to see he's not an Apple fan.
     
ort888
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Jun 30, 2010, 10:56 AM
 
I've had extended dealing with many of these Anarchist smashy-smashy protestor kids. My best friends little brother is one. I used to hang out with a bunch of these cats when I was in my early 20s.

I feel pretty comfortable in saying that 99% of them are spoiled whiney idiots.

All they ever do is whine about the system and how everything is stacked against the little people... but none of them actually want to work toward anything or do anything beyond leach off of the work of others. They are a hypocritical bunch of lazy losers who cling to this ideology in order to feel like their laziness and disconnection from the normal world has some sort of greater meaning... but the truth is that most of them are nothing more then a drag on society and are only able to sustain themselves thanks to the hard work of others. All they really want to do is drink and not work. They need to either move off the grid to a farm in the middle of nowhere, or shut the **** up.

Go work on a farm loser and stop begging people for money on the street. Where do you think that money came from anyway? Who benefits when they use that money to buy goods? They are as much a part of "the system" as any of us... the only difference is that they contribute nothing.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Doofy
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Jun 30, 2010, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Spher can't read a reply to this because he's had himself banned from the PL. So what's the point?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
 
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