[Johnnyboysmac]

Hi All,

I'm a newbie to these forums, and Macs in general. I'm saving for my first mac, and trying to make up my mind between the 17"Imac, and the DP867 Tower. As the forum seems a little divided into the tower and the Imac groups, and having asked some questions over in the Imac camp, thought I'd be the devils advocate, and rather than make a general, (and probably repetitively boring enquiry for a lot of you here) request for thoughts/advice etc, would try and approach it a bit differently.

So here goes.

The G4 tower is big, and VERY noisy. True, I could try and conceal it under a desk, but then it'll suck in lots of dust. And still be noisy. (Very)

I figure cost as much as anything will probably negate my getting into photoshop, dual monitors etc anytime soon, so don't see much need for PCI slots. Ditto high end audio/video.

Yes it has better system architecture, dual processors, L3 cache, faster bus, better graphics card etc, BUT for the sort of basic stuff (lots of web surfin, email, chatting,basic photo editing, letters etc) is that power going to be of any real benefit. Sure, DP's are nice IF you're running programs optimized for them, a-la-photoshop etc, but what about the basic mundane day to day stuff?

I figure by the time ($$ and learning curve) I can take advantage of what it has to offer, it'll be outdone by the newest whatever G6.

So why would I/should I buy one over an Imac? (17") Will it have a longer life, and thus better repay my initial investment? Certainly it'll cost a lot more in the short medium term, as I'll need to buy a monitor as well, which means putting up with another CRT, which I'd prefer not to, or going to the 17" Studio LCD (which I'd love) but would then be paying approx Aus$1700 more over the 17"Imac for the privelidge.

And, speaking as a PC user, why do mac's sort of divide the range into consumer/pro? Does this mean the Imac is built for the sort of people who can't operate the timer on a VCR? Does it mean that the towers are only for serious gamers,IT professionals, or those whose early adventures in life have so far only encompassed the computer, and consequently appear to have little, or no interest/time for anything else, ie computer geeks?

Anyway,please don't misunderstand me here, as I'm merely trying to be a little thought provoking , and wish no offence to anyone. I'm simply trying to figure out what's the best machine for me to go for, and trying to get some interesting and hopefully illuminating debate here, rather than the what do ya think, kind of post. But hey, you're all much more familiar with Macs than I could ever be, and probably a lot more knowledgeable about computers generally, so I look forward to all and any constructive comments/thoughts etc.

Thanking you all in advance, and hoping not to have indavertantly trod on anyones toes. Ahem, I burn easy when flamed! :-))

Cheers,

Johnnyboy.

[businezguy]

I really asked myself the same questions you did, although my needs could be different from your own.

I was considering between the 17 inch iMac, the Dual 867 with the 22 inch Cinema display, or the Dual 867 with the 17 inch flat panel. Obviously I had a fairly large budget to work with, so I had a wide variety of choices. The fact that I was still considering the iMac is certainly a compliment to how much I love the screen along with the fact that it can be adjusted for a great viewing angle.

Since I am looking to purchase a video camera, and since I plan to shoot a lot of footage, and since I want to be able to catalog a lot of what I take footage of, I began to realize the iMac was not for me. I was limited to an 80 gig hard drive. This really does not translate into a lot of video storage, and firewire hard drives are not that inexpensive. So, some of the value of the iMac was really depreciated for me since I would be spending more on hard drives in the future versus the Powermac.

I didn't like the fact that the iMac had a fixed screen that really could not be upgraded. Sure I could plug another monitor into the iMac but than I'd really defeat my main love of the iMac, the fact that the screen is adjustable. So, what I love about the iMac, its elegant, simple, integrated design, is also a disadvantage for my needs.

I went into the store and "test drove" the Powermacs, and they were quite fast. In fact, they had awesome power. I determined that it would not matter if faster models came out in the future. That would not change the fact that I my Powermac would meet my needs. The fact that I could purchase new monitors in the future for my Powermac (never underestimate the importance of a good display) really appealed to me. The fact that I could also purchase relatively inexpensive hard drives for future expansion was also a huge plus. I could upgrade the video card also, etc, etc.

With the Powermac, I felt I was getting a longer term investment. I am pleased with my purchase even though it was significantly more expensive than the iMac. I feel that I have purchased something that will allow me to store my huge MP3 collect, soon-to-be-huge video collection, the games I love to play, along with all of the programs I will load in the future. An 80 gig hard drive wasn't going to cut it, and I sure as heck didn't want to plug firewire hard drives into my computer.

The Powermac was more expensive, but it was a better value for me. Your needs may be different. You need to make your purchase based on your needs.

[Cipher13]

They're not that noisy...

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
They're not that noisy...

Oh yes they are.

Try running the processor on high for a little while, you will go mad.

[OreoCookie]

What kind of user are you?

For example, if my sister had asked, I'd definitely say the iMac.
So if you surf the net, watch DVDs, make a little iMovie, etc. get an iMac.

If you are a user that likes to expand the machine a little, then I'd say the PowerMac. There is no �right' and 'wrong'. I'd personally go for a PowerMac, but there are about 2000 reasons against it right now

No, seriously, if you plan to upgrade your machine with memory above 1 GByte and you want to put in a second harddrive, get the PowerMac.

[Luca Rescigno]

Personally, I don't like how Apple really limits expandability on their consumer computers, so when I wanted to get a new computer, I looked at used pro machines rather than new consumer machines. I figured that a used pro machine (in my case a dual processor G4/500 with a 17" CRT) would cost about the same as a similarly equipped iMac (Combo drive model). The difference is that in three years, the G4 tower can possibly have a dual 1000-1250 MHz processor upgrade in it, as well as a GeForce 4MX and three 120GB hard drives. Probably not the best technology for 2005, but way better than a single 700 MHz G4 with a 60GB hard drive and a GeForce 2MX.

My laptop (a PowerBook G3 series) is getting a bit long in the tooth, without any modern ports on it, but because it was built for the professional, I can still replace the hard drive by removing three screws. None of Apple's consumer line have had replaceable video cards, expansion slots, replaceable hard drives, or upgradeable processors (with only a few exceptions, and of course some people willing to void their warranty).

[Maflynn]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:


Oh yes they are.

Try running the processor on high for a little while, you will go mad.

Mine isnt, I cant speak to any other machine but I barely notice my dual gig (non-mirrored doors), I'm coming from a cube which was whisper quiet and its on all day.

Mike

[Johnnyboysmac]

Hi All,

Well my mail just told me I had some replies, so quickly came to macnn, and was most greatful to read your well thought out and reasoned replies. Thank you, and it's really helpful.

"What kind of user are you? "

Well that was a good question, but the hardest I find to define. I did a basic entry level computing course mid last year, and purchased a 2nd hand P11 around Dec. with a 17" CRT display. At first, I was very cautious, but as my experience grew, I gradually became more adventurous, and have multiple browsers, chat clients, email clients, etc, etc. But in terms of like, what do I actually do with it? - well, I'm ashamed to say, not much more than web surfin, chatting and email etc. The reason is, although I had few major troubles with the PC, I've literally spent hours, days, and weeks at times learning and dealing with the OS (I'm running win98SE) to the point that I became almost heartily sick of it. About the only things I don't have experience with, and frankly don't want to, is editing the registry, or playing with the bios, installing cards etc.

I got interested in technology/computing back when it was the mac v's Dos, and always liked the Mac, but didn't buy as I didn't really see a need for a computer in my life at the time. A few years back, to upgrade my work skills, I did a short course in what was then, win 3.11, word 6, and excel 5. It was ok, but I really just didn't like the PC, the blue screens, crashes, lock-ups nada, nada, nada. Consequently, I didn't buy a computer, and it was again only because of work needs that I did a course mid last year, as I'd pretty much forgotten most of what I'd learnt, and a bit later had the opportunity to get this PC really cheap, towards the end of last year.

I CANNOT EVEN BEGIN to tell you how much I want a Mac. The only reason I have this is because it was CHEAP, and my interest/wants about a computer in my life have been outstripped by my needs.

I have difficulty with the Mac, in that I don't know a single person who owns one, all my friends use PC's, and well meaning tho' they are, give me grief all the time about the Mac. So on one hand, whilst I'm a bit of a dab hand on a PC now, I simply don't particularly like the Win platform period, or MS politics AT ALL, and so my user profile is really just basics as I've mentioned, and keeping the thing running, stupid as that probably sounds.

Trying something new, usually results in all sorts of misbehavior etc, ad nauseum, and quite frankly I believe it's somewhat soured, dare I say it, my early computing experiences, such that at times, if I didn't actually need it, I would almost prefer to be without it. Frustration, anger, and a shrinking away from trying different apps. etc seems to be what's happening at the moment re my usage pattern. I want to try stuff like Iphoto, and get myself a new digital camera, and try things like photoshop elements etc, but I just would not dare on the PC. Like, hey, I have a life here! I don't want to be a PC nanny, holding it's little MS hand, and dealing with all its tantrums and wayward misbehaviour!

So I JUST DONT know how good a Mac could be for me, and just what I may be able to accomplish on it. Maybe heaps. Certainly just playing with them in the shop, I JUST LOVE IT, and I kick my self for not following my instincts and just going with the Mac in the first place, but I guess I thought I was doing the right thing at the time with the PC. Well, to be fair, at the price I got it at, I was, as a first computer experience.

Being realistic, $$$ would probably be the limiting factor re my advancement, with the purchase of software and peripherals etc, such as would be one of the key points in the purchase of the tower. However, as my financial position is somewhat impecunious, getting the right machine, and the best life out of it is also fairly important.

Anyway, rant over!! I JUST REALLY DISLIKE PC's Grrrrrr.

Anway, I've ranted long enough, hope that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from with this, and I guess as a newbie to the forum, where I'm coming from there as well. I think I must be the PC cuckoo in the Mac nest, but hey, it feels real comfortable here, and I like it.

Thanks for putting up with me ranting, hope to hear some more comments if anyone would like to add some more thoughts.

Cheers All,and thanx once again,- I feel like I have some new Mac friends at last!

Johnnyboy.

[godzappa]

I'd say getting an iMac (I was really tempted to pick up one of the 17" 800's after Macworld) would probably be the best choice.

Although Powermacs are expandable internally, Apple's consumer machines are very versatile, you can add almost anything you want via USB or Firewire these days.

If you're happy with the iMacs screen size, and its power, which 800mhz G4 is still a fast puppy, then the question would be why wouldn't you get an iMac, they're simply great machines.

I bought my G4 400 3 years ago and use it daily for all my computing needs, being a power user and being able to use a machine I bought 3 years ago without needing to constantly upgrade it, is a testament to Apple's products. When I purchase my next mac in the next few weeks, I'll be getting another Powermac, but if it wasn't for my design business and the 2 processors being a big help in the software I frequently use, I'd be looking long and hard at getting the iMac myself.

[OreoCookie]

OK, just how much money do you want to spend (gimme numbers if you can)?

I highly recommend a Mac with a G4 CPU as I am stuck with a G3 iBook.

So IMHO, I'd leave all old CRT iMacs where they are, don't buy one. The CRT display can be run (without hurting your eyes that is) at 800 x 600.

Then the question whether or not to buy a used Mac. If you can afford a new one, go for a new one.

You sound pretty much like a user that isn't into taking a screw driver and playing with the guts just for fun. An all-in-one would be perfectly fine for you.

If you can afford a new one, there is the eMac and the iMac. If your budget is kinda tight, get an eMac -- make sure it has a combo drive or at least a burner, not the CD-ROM model.

But if you decide that you like the style of the iMac better, go for it. I certainly do. It has a nice LCD which is easier on the eyes and you won't miss anything (that's just an issue for professionals that need color proof monitors, gamers, etc.).
There are two models that are interesting (for me): the 15" combo drive model and the 17" Superdrive model (a Superdrive is a DVD burner, i. e. for home made videos).
If you are not into video editing or so, you can safe the extra cash (except you like the large screen that much that you �have' to have it ).

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
They're not that noisy...

Wrong, mine is noisy! Subjective opinion from the owner of a quiet Mac (Cube 450)

[tooki]

Re: Dual vs single processors.

If you run Mac OS X, then all applications will benefit from the second processor. Only Mac OS 9 requires multiprocessor-aware applications.

One other advantage to the Power Mac is that you buy a screen once, and then keep it even as you get new computers. Computers become obsolete much faster than displays. With an iMac, you're paying for a pricey flat panel which cannot be separated from the computer, so when you want a faster computer, you will have to buy a new display as well.

tooki

[daydreamer]

you should listen to tooki, much reasons there why i bought a PowerMac...

[Luca Rescigno]

Yes, one big advantage of OS X to recent buyers of the older dual 450s and 500s is that even the OS itself takes advantage of the second processor. So those who bought a dual machine before OS X came out actually saw a speed increase within the first year, rather than a slowdown.

I don't think that all applications will take advantage of dual processors though. It depends on how they're threaded. I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I think that if an application is multi-threaded (like OS X or iTunes) it'll be able to divide the work between the two processors. If it's single-threaded (like Mozilla or most games), it'll put its load on one processor. But even with non-dual processor applications, you will still see an increase in speed because other applications will be put on the other processor. So dual processors are excellent for multitasking.

[lebannen]

Just going to pipe in here to clarify some stuff, which may or may not be useful depending on how much of a newbie you are

Apple divides its' computers into two lines (consumer and professional) according to what you want and how you want to use it. Aside from the obvious price difference, the split seems to be:
Consumer
- Locked configurations; you can't change much later, beyond hard disk and RAM.
- Arguably better design; without needing to leave expansion space, everything can be designed to fit just so. More compact machines, and some very nice extras - like the iMac's swivel monitor.
- Tends to be slower.

Professional
- Expandable. This is the big one. Change processors, change graphics cards, add extra hard disks, add extra features like firewire-X on PCI card later. Change the monitor. A owermac can have a much longer lifespan, as you've got the ability to upgrade it a bit-at-a-time.
- Bigger, louder, heavier. Gotta pay for power.
- Tends to have an edge in speed. Dual processors, etc.

But the main thing to remember is that there's not actually that much of a difference from a user perspective. you can normally plug the same things into each, the software running on each is the same; you can only browse the web on a dual-1.25, or you can make a living out of photoshop on a three-year-old iMac. There is a difference in how fast you can do things; but I've put together A2 300dpi posters on this iMacDV, edited 250-page graphic-heavy pamphlets on it, encoded video. You'll eventually hit a limit (mine is video editing), but whatever machine you buy will be able to do a lot for years to come.

The dual processors can give a big boost, whatever programs you're running. Even if you'rerunning a poorly-programmed beast which isn't multi-threaded, the computer still benefits from being able to devote a full processor to it, and put all the overhea on the other processor - that overhead ranges from the systems needed to run the computer, to you leaving an email program or itunes in the background.

Ultimately, every bit of power you have will help on something you do in the future. But you don't always need it. I bought this iMacDV three years ago, within a couple of months, and have happily learnt a wealth of programs and used programs from textedit to final cut pro on it. My next machine will be a powermac, because I want to be able to swap graphics cards and processors every couple of years, but I don't really need to, I just want the extra power.

This devil's advocate is far too sensible, but will whisper a last insiduous message into your ear... power is goooooood.

[Kiddo311]

But the main thing to remember is that there's not actually that much of a difference from a user perspective. you can normally plug the same things into each, the software running on each is the same; you can only browse the web on a dual-1.25, or you can make a living out of photoshop on a three-year-old iMac. There is a difference in how fast you can do things; but I've put together A2 300dpi posters on this iMacDV, edited 250-page graphic-heavy pamphlets on it, encoded video. You'll eventually hit a limit (mine is video editing), but whatever machine you buy will be able to do a lot for years to come.

man you are a masochist

[lebannen]

Originally posted by Kiddo311:


man you are a masochist

Mmm, yeah, ok, so poster editing is slow when you use any filter at all But hey, that's the beauty of OS X, I just switch to omniweb and browse some forums for a while

Slower, but definitely doable. OS X made a *real* difference here, doing something no longer locks up the computer. That alone means I would never go back to 9... but that's a different matter

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i have a "slow" g4 500 tibook

i will upgrade to the new processor whenever that comes out. i'm guessing 2 years from now. but definatly, masochism rules for now

i dont even feel a lag most of the time though

[one]

JohnnyBoysMac, re-read BiznessGuys post - w/ your thread-starter, you've got the answer to your question ('why consumer & pro lines?').

The demands you make (& expect to make) on your computer are modest enough that the iMac should be a first-rate choice for you; Firewire & USB should be perfectly adequate for expansion until your needs, or technology leap-frogs your 3 or 4 times & you decide it's time for a new computer.

BiznessGuy, on the other hand, will be very demanding of his system both in speed and in expansions / upgrades. The ability to handle computer and display as separate issues is a plus for him. The PowerMac suits him and his (pro) needs perfectly...just as the iMac suits your (consumer) needs perfectly.

[Secret Vampire]

I faced a similar dilema when switching (Though from Linux, not Windows) but the playing field has changed considerably in the ~5 months since then.

At the time, there was only the 15" iMac, and the Dual GHz machines were still quite new, I couldn't live with a 1024x768 display on a desktop machine, especially if dual-head operation wasn't possible, and I also wanted SCSI to plug some peripherals into, the USB/Firewire-scsi converters were expensive items, on top of an already expensive system.

On the other hand, the Low end of the powermac line was even more expensive, and offered only small gains on top of the iMac (still no L3 cache, marginal increase in CPU speed, slightly faster graphics), however I had a nice 17" display,and a SCSI card that could be flashed with a Mac rom, so there was some advantage.

Anyway, I eventually investigated the used market, hoping to get a good deal on one of the previous generation machines, eventually getting a dual 500, which was only slightly newer than the PC it was going to replace. I'm very glad I did, I don't think I'd have been happy with the iMac on offer at the time.

Back to the present, it's not an easy decision at all, the 17" iMac, and eMac both fix the stupidly small display issue, and the eMac offers a very nice low cost entry point, however the new PowerMacs offer better value-for-money than they've ever done before, personally I think I'd go for the dual 867, the price is definitely right, but then I'm using it for a variety of things, all at once . If you aren't ever going to do anything intensive with it, and aren't going to want to put a PCI card in it at some point (Right now the Formac ProTV is the only thing I'd want to add, but for the lack of OSX drivers) then there's no point, and the iMac is way cooler.