[Scientist]

I have a question that has been on my mind a lot lately. Maybe some of the wonderful people who populate this board can assist me by answering the poll question.

I went to a Catholic High School from preschool through 8th Grade. My father was an atheist and my mother a semi-devout Christian. When I was younger, perhaps as a third grader, I grew a little frustrated when the teachers would talk about God. At that point in my life I could not remember a point in my life were I believed in God. I found the entire concept so dubious that I assumed, probably incorrectly, that many of my classmates shared my disbelief. I had never actually talked to my classmates about such matters. Religion wasn't the sort of thing that we children talk about in our spare time. It didn't matter to me; they were just like me in so many ways; obviously they didn't believe in God. It seemed very obvious to me. Yet, strangely my teachers did appear to believe. How strange. For a long time I pondered revealing to them that we didn't believe. I thought perhaps our religious study time could be better spent reading, writing or playing tag. If I wasn't so shy I probably would have told them.

I soon realized that most or all of these students did believe in God. At the very least, by that point, the seeds of religion had been planted and were beginning to grow. Still I often wondered how deeply their belief had taken root. Did they really believe or did they somehow, subconsciously or otherwise, recognize that they were probably wrong. Did they struggle daily to convince themselves of its truth? Did they look for signs of God everywhere in life and selectively filter out evidence against their belief? Wouldn't they be at least somewhat conscious of the fact that they were fooling themselves, and that doing so that would skew their results? Why were they always "sinning" and doing things that their religion forbade. If they really believed wouldn't they try a little harder?

Fast forward 15 years. I have come to accept that religious people, at least many of them, truly do believe in God. Perhaps many of them are as confident in their positions as I am about my position (which is skepticism about almost everything). I'm still a little hesitant to grant them this.

I don't really want to create another inane discussion about the merits about different belief systems. I simply want to know what people with one belief system tend to think about the confidence of people with an opposing belief system. To simplify the situation I will use only two general groups, theists and nontheists.

If you are a nontheist the question is: "Does a typical theist truly believe in their specific god(s) or do they have a lot more inner doubt and conflict than they will admit to?"

If you are a theist the question is: "Does a typical nontheist truly not believe in any god(s) or do they have a lot more inner doubt and conflict than they will admit to?"

I ask this because I see a lot of religious people accuse nontheists here of secretly believing in yet hating or rejecting god. Many have similar concerns regarding theists. So what do you think?

[lurkalot]

Deleted.

[Millennium]

Nontheist or atheist?

There are several types of nontheists, and many of them aren't truly atheist. Of course there are agnostics, who don't believe either way, either because they don't know or believe it's unknowable. Then there are animists (Shinto being an example of an animistic faith), who believe in spirits but wouldn't call them gods in the same way we understand them to be.

Then there are pantheists, who see God in all things; do these count as theists or not, given that the pantheist "God" isn't distinguishable from anything else because it is in everything?

Why do I ask this? It depends on the answer. I'd imagine that most agnostics, animists, pantheists, and so forth truly believe what they profess. Among those who call themselves atheists, there are the ones who truly have faith in no gods, and the ones who are really agnostics but call themselves atheists because it's trendy. They're generally easy to tell them apart, because a real atheist will admit that their beliefs are a kind of faith, while the atheist-but-really-agnostics will reject that assertion and may even feel insulted by it.

[mikellanes]

I am a nontheist and I think most theists truly believe in their god, as I once did.

I predict 2 and 3 will have the most votes, seems most nontheists believe that theists DO truly believe else why would they be theists. I would guess most professing theists believe they are correct 100% and think nontheists are hiding some belief or trying to make excuses, etc.

I truly believe it is a small part nurture and a whole lot of genes that makeup your theists leanings.

[BRussell]

My guess is that atheists most definitely think "theists" believe in God. I can't speak for the theists, but maybe they really do think atheists, deep down, believe in God.

[Scientist]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Why do I ask this? It depends on the answer.

The purpose of my questioning is to determine if proponents of one belief system are generally able to accept that proponents of a radically different belief system believe as confidently as they do. For the purpose of the poll we can leave it up to the animists and pantheists to decide which label fits them best.

The poll isn't terribly useful because I haven't done a very good job of defining what "truly believe" and "truly not believe" really mean.

I also wonder if there are many theists out there who deny that many of their fellow theists of the same (or different) religion "truly believe".

Hopefully this thread will spawn some more interesting discussion.

[ebuddy]

I think the question is worded with a juvenile pre-supposition in that it is too black and/or too white. Don't take offense, it's hard to be diplomatic in the written word. Let me put it this way; Faith or Non-Faith as it were, is more a continuum ranging from 0% faith to 100% faith. It is neither all, nor none. Most, I would imagine (if it were measureable) would fall somewhere between 20-90% faith in an ultimate being, a God. Those closer to 90% may be pastors, missionaries, clergy of some type or others that have dedicated thier lives with intent to serve their God. It should be noted that even those walking among Jesus for example, experienced a wavering of faith. It can be assumed then among humankind, that 100% faith is rare if not non-existent.

Those closer to 20% may simply live their lives neither defending nor practicing their faith and are often times more immersed in what religion may call 'sinful nature'. Those below 20% may find themselves more focused on discrediting the faithful adherents in the realm of 70-90%. While many of those closer to 0% may find religion truly dangerous and worthy of great movements toward agnosticism, I find many more simply wanting to be antagonistic. I find religion as such creates accountability. Humankind has a very specific distaste for accountability even for those ranging from 50-90% faith. We waver in faith depending upon our circumstances, our ability to accept accountability, and our desire to act on our belief. Some hold on to that minute amount of faith "just in case" and that faith grows as the individual ages.

In short, I find most to fit within the continuum of 20-90% faith and generally their actions are either in accordance with faith in mankind or faith in God with equal degrees.

[CreepingDeth]

Messed up poll. I really don't fit into any of those said categories.
I'm somewhere between agnostic and a deist or something like that. I am sure there is a God, but what religion I don't know. From a previous thread, most of my views matched up with Orthodox Judaism (100%) and Islam (95%), then Christianity (75%) in that order.

But do I think the so called "notheists" believe in God? If I break it down to whether I think atheists believe in God, there is a simple saying that goes "There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole." Quite a bit of truth to that. While they are anti-religious zealots, when things turn into absolute **** (Like that part in Band of Brothers where that twitchy guy is behind some dirt when the Germans attack), they will do something, whether it be prayer for themselves or praying to God, etc.

Little story. When I was examining the punks (to see how messed up they really are), I went out on one of their little things where they take Carpet Fresh and light stuff (like playgroun equipment) on fire. One of the old ladies said she was going to call the cops. These guys are screwed up. They hate Jews and Christians, they call cops pigs and their parents shove that crap down their throats. These guys would piss on a manger if they had the chance right now. So one of them says, "Damn, I hope she doesn't call the cops." Hope? Hope? Who else would he be referring to? A leaf? He was basically praying that God would keep her from getting the cops on his ass. That's what ti seemed like. Now, this does not apply to all. But from most of the so-called atheists I have met, it seems that when they are in trouble, they start hoping, praying, etc. for a way to stay out of trouble.

The poll is fundamentally screwed up, so I can't say anything about "nontheists".

[Shaddim]

I'm a firm believer in the old adage, "in a foxhole there are no atheists". Usually, when a person is in a comfortable space (when they're healthy, not being threatened, loved ones are secure, etc.) the possibility a person will claim to be an atheist is much higher. However, lower the comfort level or put them in jeopardy and they're quick to reevaluate their position.

An elderly gentleman once told me, "When I was young, I had the stones to not believe in a god. But, as I've grown older, my stones shrunk to a size that my faith could handle".

[budster101]

It's not my place to judge other people, weather they believe or not. It is my obligation to show them why I do believe. I look at it this way, if you are going to believe in yourself and your fellow man, then how can you leave God out of the equation? If you do not believe in yourself or your fellow man, then it is only natural that you have left God out of the equation.

I use terms like equation, because I have noticed in my post viewings about religion, and politics that many in here are quite young and 'non-theists'. This I attribute to outside influence to the derrogatory, and not as much introspection and observation of the world around them. If you are going to judge the world in which you live, take a long hard look in the mirror on a daily basis prior to that endeavor. I think you will find your criticism being adjusted in favor of those you would normally attack and belittle because they don't think like you do.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
I find religion as such creates accountability. Humankind has a very specific distaste for accountability even for those ranging from 50-90% faith. We waver in faith depending upon our circumstances, our ability to accept accountability, and our desire to act on our belief. Some hold on to that minute amount of faith "just in case" and that faith grows as the individual ages.

Decent enough answer to what you think...

As for the accountability part, what makes you think I don't see myself as accountable? I have children I am accountable for them, I am accountable to the human race as well, Morals aren't religion, yet I have morals of being a good person, leave this world better than when you came in it is my philosophy.

[mikellanes]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
But do I think the so called "notheists" believe in God?

Sounds like your are a #2? What is the big confusion here, you even expand on that below...

But from most of the so-called atheists I have met, it seems that when they are in trouble, they start hoping, praying, etc. for a way to stay out of trouble.

How does hope = God? I can hope that you don't key my car but do I believe in God? no. Do think hope is going to make God intervene? no. Hope is not God hope is not religion, hope is nothing and does nothing except comfort the mind.

The poll is fundamentally screwed up, so I can't say anything about "nontheists".

I believe you did?

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I'm a firm believer in the old adage, "in a foxhole there are no atheists". Usually, when a person is in a comfortable space (when they're healthy, not being threatened, loved ones are secure, etc.) the possibility a person will claim to be an atheist is much higher. However, lower the comfort level or put them in jeopardy and they're quick to reevaluate their position.

I believe the adage like most of them, is horse shiat. I have been at both ends of your spectrum and never called on God or even though of a God.

You people are affirming my belief that if you believe in God you can't see anyway that someone can TRULY not.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
If you are going to believe in yourself and your fellow man, then how can you leave God out of the equation? If you do not believe in yourself or your fellow man, then it is only natural that you have left God out of the equation.

Why do you need God in the equation, are you not capable of caring or believing in your fellow man on your own? Do you people need fire and brimstone and a hell to make you good people or to care? I don't think so, I think it is a delusion that you have been led to believe.

[budster101]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Why do you need God in the equation, are you not capable of caring or believing in your fellow man on your own? Do you people need fire and brimstone and a hell to make you good people or to care? I don't think so, I think it is a delusion that you have been led to believe.

I don't need him to be there. I'm saying he *is* there, or he is not. You cannot make water with a little thing called oxygen and *two* hydrogen molecules. I like that analogy because I think of it like this. You have this representation of a fundamental element for life to exist. It contains everything you need. Seperately they are all very volatile, but together they are in harmony. Two hydrogens and one oxygen. If I may take this analogy a bit further, to it's limit. One hydrogen represents evil, the other represents God, and the oxygen represents us.

I don't think of hell-fire or brimstone, as I am not affraid of what I believe to be a near imposibility. I'm not motivated by fear as many wish to put it, but by optimism and 'hope'. I'm good because God is in me and I allow him to shine through. It's my choice. One way or the other.

As for your thinking of something as delusional. I can give you many examples of science that would have been considered delusional to believe in as well, but you don't require me to point them out now do you?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Why do you need God in the equation, are you not capable of caring or believing in your fellow man on your own? Do you people need fire and brimstone and a hell to make you good people or to care? I don't think so, I think it is a delusion that you have been led to believe.

What makes you think that all of us believe in a physical "hell"?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
I believe the adage like most of them, is horse shiat. I have been at both ends of your spectrum and never called on God or even though of a God.

You people are affirming my belief that if you believe in God you can't see anyway that someone can TRULY not.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I've seen it too many times already in my life to not believe that it's true.

BTW, I have "seen God", I don't have a choice but to believe... though, I suppose I could live in denial, but that's just a waste of effort.

[itai195]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I'm a firm believer in the old adage, "in a foxhole there are no atheists". Usually, when a person is in a comfortable space (when they're healthy, not being threatened, loved ones are secure, etc.) the possibility a person will claim to be an atheist is much higher. However, lower the comfort level or put them in jeopardy and they're quick to reevaluate their position.

To appropriate someone else's words, I've always thought that phrase to say more about foxholes than about God.

[budster101]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
How does hope = God? I can hope that you don't key my car but do I believe in God? no. Do think hope is going to make God intervene? no. Hope is not God hope is not religion, hope is nothing and does nothing except comfort the mind.
I believe you did?

I am going to use another analogy to get my point across here. I think of God as autonomic just like breathing. Nobody had to tell me I had to 'need' to breath, yet I still do it. When I am thirsty, I drink some water. He is there, and doesn't need for me to do anything in particular except have the will and desire to live a good life. This just might go against the grain of some religions, but that doesn't bother me. When a person meditates and breaths a certain way, he is in fact communing with God. Now, I'm not a particularly outwardly religious person. You won't see me handing out pamphlets or prostelitising to 'sinners' on a street corner, but I'm only more than happy to relate my own observations and thoughts on the topic, and if you feel the better for it, then that would be wonderful. If not, then I'm not going to say, 'you're going to h-e-double-hockey-sticks'. I can see God in everything. He's there for the drinking.

Beverage anyone? I'll have a pint tonight and give this some more thought.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
I don't need him to be there. I'm saying he *is* there, or he is not.

You said "if you are going to believe in yourself and your fellow man, then how can you leave God out of the equation?"

What does he have to do with the equation? I leave him out yet I believe in myself and fellow man, what is the problem?

I can give you many examples of science that would have been considered delusional to believe in as well, but you don't require me to point them out now do you?

Surely not! Perfection? no.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
What makes you think that all of us believe in a physical "hell"?

What makes you think I think that? heh

Replace hell with God still works.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Sorry, I don't buy it. I've seen it too many times already in my life to not believe that it's true.

BTW, I have "seen God", I don't have a choice but to believe... though, I suppose I could live in denial, but that's just a waste of effort.

Truth is not 100% you should know that.
You have seen God? I have seen smurfs, doesn't mean they are real. Mind is powerful, remember it can control smell, touch, taste, vision, thought and memory among other things.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
I am going to use another analogy to get my point across here. I think of God as autonomic just like breathing. Nobody had to tell me I had to 'need' to breath, yet I still do it. When I am thirsty, I drink some water. He is there, and doesn't need for me to do anything in particular except have the will and desire to live a good life.

I am saying God is not required belief in him is not required to do any of the things you are saying, you can be a good person, you can be an example to people and not believe in God at all.

[budster101]

Originally posted by itai195:
To appropriate someone else's words, I've always thought that phrase to say more about foxholes than about God.

Who said that anyway? I think I know. <tapping my chin> Oh, he's probably done with any more oxygen or water in his life now anyway, and is probably more concerned with the foxhole he's currently buried in.

Sorry for the sharp words. That was a funny turn of phrase, and it would suit to explain the thought that stress would induce someone to believe in a God more so than someone who demonstratedly is well off, safe, and quite contented in his life. It could also explain how some of the <diverging topic> best music and art are created in conditions of let's say lessor value and comfort? I call it divine inspiration, others might call it a good and fertile environment for a muse to speak and be listened to.

If one could be relaxed in the most strenuous of circumstances, I think that is the time to be looking for God, because it is then when he is most visible. He is always there, mind you, but we aren't always open to seeing or hearing his word.

Now, don't come down on me about seeing things or hearing voices, because I doubt anyone with any amount of life experience has not had some sort of visionary experience. I would highly recommend it, you can only become more open to self-awareness and growth.

[budster101]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
You said "if you are going to believe in yourself and your fellow man, then how can you leave God out of the equation?"

What does he have to do with the equation? I leave him out yet I believe in myself and fellow man, what is the problem?



Surely not! Perfection? no.

I'm saying, you leave him out. That's ok. He's just there anyway, you just don't see or hear him.

I don't mean to challenge any scientific explorers, because I firmly believe they are seeking the ultimate goal, and they will discover that someday, but not necessarilly in how they seek it. I'm not sure where you mention perfection or why, but it isn't necessary, and as a matter of import, I would insist that perfection be left out, as it is part of the equation as well. There will always be a missing variable or one that is askew, but that is all part of the big picture. Nothing is perfect, except God, and I'm ok with that.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
Truth is not 100% you should know that.
You have seen God? I have seen smurfs, doesn't mean they are real. Mind is powerful, remember it can control smell, touch, taste, vision, thought and memory among other things.

I'm just saying you haven't been pushed to that point yet. Logic isn't 100%, you should know that.

Well, not "God" per se, but almost countless numbers of "His" agents. It's the reason I'm in this line of work, and they aren't smurfs... not even close. Though, I suppose I could try a smurf invocation at the next opening, could be amusing.

[mikellanes]

Well that is a whole other topic.

Looking at the poll, I will say not one person says they believe in God and can conceive that another can NOT.

Rather judgmental to me to think you know the true heart of a person better than they.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I'm just saying you haven't been pushed to that point yet.

I have been at that point, don't tell me, watching your brother die them come back to life. qualifies me.

Well, not "God" per se, but almost countless numbers of "His" agents. It's the reason I'm in this line of work, and they aren't smurfs... not even close. Though, I suppose I could try a smurf invocation at the next opening, could be amusing.

What line of work would that be, psychic hotline? Kidding... what makes you think these minions have anything to do with God? Do others see these or just you? Got any evidence?

So far just a lot of words... words show me nothing.

[budster101]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
I am saying God is not required belief in him is not required to do any of the things you are saying, you can be a good person, you can be an example to people and not believe in God at all.

I agree with you. He is not required until the time is right, and then he'll make himself known to you. It isn't for me to say when, where, or how. I don't insist that you believe in him because I don't think it is necessary. I know that there are specific weights and measurements in the world that represent many different materials, and I accept this because it makes perfect sense. A pound of feathers is the same as a pound of anything else. Ok, that was weird, but I'm not gong to delete it because I'm on a roll here.

I think you are an example of why I beleive in God. Don't take that the wrong way, because I think you are a good person. If you see yourself as good, then so does God.

I say, continue being a good person, and don't worry about having to believe in that God fellow.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
I agree with you. He is not required until the time is right, and then he'll make himself known to you. It isn't for me to say when, where, or how. I don't insist that you believe in him because I don't think it is necessary. I know that there are specific weights and measurements in the world that represent many different materials, and I accept this because it makes perfect sense. A pound of feathers is the same as a pound of anything else. Ok, that was weird, but I'm not gong to delete it because I'm on a roll here.

I think you are an example of why I beleive in God. Don't take that the wrong way, because I think you are a good person. If you see yourself as good, then so does God.

I say, continue being a good person, and don't worry about having to believe in that God fellow.

I see your point. Yet it is your opinion, I can say there is no God, there is no Jesus, the bible is a collection of history books and have been, over the years turned into fables for amusement.

God id not required in life, just live life, if you want to live life in an evil way, fine but our society will enforce rules. If you want to live a Good life and help people all the better! no rewards for you later, you will soon be dead and probably forgotten about, make your change count. That is IMHO.

You don't NEED a God EVER to be a good person, my grand father never professed or talked about a God, never sparked my interest in a God, yet had a profound impact on my life, has left parks in suburban areas for children to enjoy, has left a legacy behind him and never did it with God in mind. Perhaps he though of God on his death bed? I am not sure, I was there but he was mostly quiet.

[budster101]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
I have been at that point, don't tell me, watching your brother die them come back to life. qualifies me.

What line of work would that be, psychic hotline? Kidding... what makes you think these minions have anything to do with God? Do others see these or just you? Got any evidence?

So far just a lot of words... words mean nothing.

Glad you have your brother around for some more time. I lost my dearest friend at a very young age, and I think it is then when God poked his head in and gave me a little tap on the shoulder. I wasn't ready to see him then, so I shut him out for a while.

I can't respond for whom you direct the question of evidence, but I'd like to send it out anyway. The evidence you seek is only going to be known to you when the time comes and will make little sense to anyone else. Quite the puzzle right? Isn't life one grand puzzle? If it were going to be as simple as defining God in so many easy steps, then he would have been discovered and proven to exist long ago. How boring would that be? Well, are you up to the challenge of discovering God? Don't answer that.

Words mean everything. For instance, when I give my word, that I won't judge you, and then I write it. It takes on a whole new kind of importance. When I use words to give analogies, they represent important ideas that can enlighten others as to what I am describing. Words are the most powerful things, and they should be used with the utmost of care and reference. Especially when you are writing them down. You are sharing yourself with others, your thoughts; feelings; likes; dislikes, beliefs; disbeliefs.

Oh, yes. Words are wonderful things, and when someone gives me the honor of reading mine, giving them thought and then responding to them, it makes me feel very good.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
I can't respond for whom you direct the question of evidence, but I'd like to send it out anyway. The evidence you seek is only going to be known to you when the time comes and will make little sense to anyone else. Quite the puzzle right? Isn't life one grand puzzle?

How awesome. Life one great puzzle? No, people try to make life mean more than it does. "What is the meaning of life?" is always a question, for you perhaps "God" is a reason. Why can't you accept that for me there is no reason, just live and forget about it.

You seem to think I will be enlightened or see God one day, I once believed in God for many years, I realized I was manipulating myself to believe and I looked for truth and found it. Did I find what I was looking for? Perhaps.. perhaps not.

Maybe I will see God soon, my time is almost up!

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
Words are wonderful things, and when someone gives me the honor of reading mine, giving them thought and then responding to them, it makes me feel very good.

Agreed, I have fixed my "words" to better represent what I was trying to say. Perfection, me, no.

[budster101]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
How awesome. Life one great puzzle? No, people try to make life mean more than it does. "What is the meaning of life?" is always a question, for you perhaps "God" is a reason. Why can't you accept that for me there is no reason, just live and forget about it.

You seem to think I will be enlightened or see God one day, I once believed in God for many years, I realized I was manipulating myself to believe and I looked for truth and found it. Did I find what I was looking for? Perhaps.. perhaps not.

Maybe I will see God soon, my time is almost up!

I think I was less than accurate with my words as well. <responding to both posts>

What I intend to point out is, it is ok with me if you never believe in God, but live a good life. For me, that is enough, and that is showing God through your life. If you wish that it not be represented as such, then this of course is your own perogative.

I'd like to think you'll see him one day, but it is not the pinnacle of my point. You may well have been manipulating yourself into believing in him, and that just wasn't necessary. It's like forcing a dry well to give up some water, sometimes it's best to move on to the next location and start digging again, or wait until the ground is more forgiving <sorry for that pun> and dig at a later date.

Your time is never almost up, it's always almost up. wink and a nod from here.

[itai195]

Originally posted by budster101:
Who said that anyway? I think I know. <tapping my chin> Oh, he's probably done with any more oxygen or water in his life now anyway, and is probably more concerned with the foxhole he's currently buried in.

Sorry for the sharp words. That was a funny turn of phrase, and it would suit to explain the thought that stress would induce someone to believe in a God more so than someone who demonstratedly is well off, safe, and quite contented in his life. It could also explain how some of the <diverging topic> best music and art are created in conditions of let's say lessor value and comfort? I call it divine inspiration, others might call it a good and fertile environment for a muse to speak and be listened to.

If one could be relaxed in the most strenuous of circumstances, I think that is the time to be looking for God, because it is then when he is most visible. He is always there, mind you, but we aren't always open to seeing or hearing his word.

Now, don't come down on me about seeing things or hearing voices, because I doubt anyone with any amount of life experience has not had some sort of visionary experience. I would highly recommend it, you can only become more open to self-awareness and growth.

Don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what your point is

My point was that people will reach out for anything that gives them hope and comfort at a time of extreme distress. And even if one doesn't buy that, it still stands to reason that it's equally possible someone in a foxhole will begin to question their faith in a being that would allow such a horrible thing to happen to them. After all, the rise of 'mainstream' atheism and disenchantment with organized religion is largely a reaction to 20th century warfare.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by budster101:
Your time is never almost up, it's always almost up. wink and a nod from here.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
I have been at that point, don't tell me, watching your brother die them come back to life. qualifies me.



What line of work would that be, psychic hotline? Kidding... what makes you think these minions have anything to do with God? Do others see these or just you? Got any evidence?

So far just a lot of words... words mean nothing.

"Got proof?" Got 2-3 years? Because that's how long it takes to go through the outer order of most esoteric lodges and temples. Needless to say, it's not something that I can just "whip out" on an Internet forum. "Here, I can show you God, *Tada*!" Would be nice, but it doesn't function that way, and for very good reasons.

I've worked in this for about 20 years and have seen more than enough to put my mind at ease... Most times I believe I've seen too much, probably enough to put most people in a mental ward. As for the "minions", as you put it, some are "of God", some aren't. There are ways a person can tell. I'm not going to go into more detail than that, at least not here.

As for my line of work. I'm a professor of Theology (and occassionally some languages) at a local Univ.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
How awesome. Life one great puzzle? No, people try to make life mean more than it does. "What is the meaning of life?" is always a question, for you perhaps "God" is a reason. Why can't you accept that for me there is no reason, just live and forget about it.

You seem to think I will be enlightened or see God one day, I once believed in God for many years, I realized I was manipulating myself to believe and I looked for truth and found it. Did I find what I was looking for? Perhaps.. perhaps not.

Maybe I will see God soon, my time is almost up!

Perhaps you will, or maybe it'll be next time around. Who knows?

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
"Got proof?" Got 2-3 years? Because that's how long it takes to go through the outer order of most esoteric lodges and temples.

Thanks, thats all I need to know. Call it God if you like, dosen't change what it is.

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Perhaps you will, or maybe it'll be next time around. Who knows?

I have a feeling I won't know about it.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by itai195:
My point was that people will reach out for anything that gives them hope and comfort at a time of extreme distress. And even if one doesn't buy that, it still stands to reason that it's equally possible someone in a foxhole will begin to question their faith in a being that would allow such a horrible thing to happen to them. After all, the rise of 'mainstream' atheism and disenchantment with organized religion is largely a reaction to 20th century warfare.

I agree with you and mike. The guy in the foxhole and the guy with $5,000 on the line at the craps table are relying on the same thing: luck. Nature is cruel, so we appeal to unseen forces for good luck.

The aphorism about foxholes is quaint but has no more substance than the joke "As long as there are math quizzes, there will be prayer in schools." It proves nothing other than that we're vulnerable, emotional beings. It also ignores the less romantic truth: appealing to God doesn't do much for the guys who get their heads blown off. That's just bad luck.

Funny how when an atheist says "God is basically an emotional crutch, the adult version of an imaginary friend," he gets jumped on, but here we see theists admitting that that is exactly what God is: a way to cope with nature's cruelty and inscrutability, something people turn to in distress. I have no problem with emotional crutches - we all need them - I just think it's prudent to see them for what they are.

It's also difficult to keep track of what believers are talking about. I keep hearing that God is a matter of faith, while other people claim to have seen God, and then there are all the different versions. Whatever floats your boat, but it hardly increases the likelihood that I'm going to view it as anything other than a product of the human imagination.

There's clearly a wide gulf: believers don't appear to be able to grasp that some of us simply don't believe in things for which we have seen no evidence. As we can see from this thread, they assume that disbelief is a matter of "faith," or that atheism is merely trendy, or that we're merely hostile to religion. But it's really quite simple: if someone tells me there's an apple in front of me and I can't see or feel or hear or smell an apple, I have no reason to believe there's an apple there. That doesn't mean that I have "faith" that there's no apple or that I'm an anti-apple-ist or an Apple Hater or that I'm "just not ready to see the apple" or some such psycho-babble - all it means is that you need to show me positive evidence of an apple. There's nothing trendy or antagonistic or complicated about it.

[ebuddy]

As for the accountability part, what makes you think I don't see myself as accountable?

Please don't misunderstand. I realize you can be a moral and trustworthy person without Christianity or without God, but consider the words of one atheist;
Atheism has changed my life for the better. I no longer need to tell people they're doomed to hell.

Why one believes an obligatory trait of Christianity is telling another they are doomed to Hell is entirely beyond me. That doesn't sound like spreading 'the Good News' rather, sounds like he was driven to disseminate bad news. I should be concerned enough about my own spiritual well-being and driven to commit acts of good will to my neighbor. I can see why this atheist was turned off by religion, but I must say the pessimism was rooted in ignorance. It also appears the pessimism remains, but I couldn't know for certain.

I can appreciate other mythologies. I understand people better now that I don't see them as sinners.

I don't comprehend how 'appreciating other mythologies' puts you at risk in any religion. I appreciate atheism, Islam, and Buddhism- I don't adhere to it, but I appreciate the challenges people bring forth. I appreciate all people to one degree or another.

People who work with me have remarked again and again how calm I am now in the face of frustrations. I feel that the burden to to please an unpleaseable god has been lifted.

It was lifted upon Christ's death according to Christianity. This burden may have been lifted had this 'prior believer' tried to learn anything at all. I might also ask if any prescription drugs entered the equation at any point, but given this person's pessimistic mindset-it doesn't surprise me that he was burdened to this degree. I am sometimes saddened by how Christians indoctrinate the minds of many, falsely. This individual for example learned nothing about Grace and a spiritual existance. You see, it's more than being 'a good person' in the natural. There is also spiritual enlightenment. Things that can occur for you in a supernatural sense. These things are revealed over time and according to faith. Let me put it as simply as this; coincidences that occur at a rate other than can be logically assigned 'coincidental'.

This has helped me to keep my wife close to her wayward daughter.
I wonder what is 'wayward' about her daughter. I wonder why any belief would restrict one from their daughter.

I have children I am accountable for them, I am accountable to the human race as well, Morals aren't religion, yet I have morals of being a good person, leave this world better than when you came in it is my philosophy.

I can't be clear enough about this; I'd be absolutely happy to be your neighbor Mikellanes. You strike me as a trustworthy individual and a good person. You don't need God to be a good person, but you need God to be a Spiritual person. These things are not revealed to one in the natural, but one in the supernatural. I believe you were created to be great and upon realizing this, you may become even greater! For me, there was a large void. An inherent desire to worship God. I cannot speak for others, but I've witnessed a similar void in those I know who don't believe. It is not for me to tell them this or to indict them or damn them to Hell, but for me to show them this in my daily life. When I pray for someone, the opportunity for witness arises naturally and in their time, not mine. I am not one's personal savior nor judge, but when asked can hopefully point them to who is.

[ebuddy]

If you don't mind me asking Mikellanes; Your time is almost up? Are you being serious or was this meant in a rhetorical sense that I may have missed?

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
I understand people better now that I don't see them as sinners.

I will say, this is something I now understand. I used to see people as sinners, as heathens as people who were unwilling or not called by God and were leading an sinful life, now that my views are widely altered I agree there is a huge amount of understanding of most people when you now see them as a person. A person with little reason to be nice, after all survival of the fittest is the call to duty, our ability to fight our genes, to show compassion, for altruism is quite an amazing thing. You see this in animals as well, and not only through training, through love as well.

As for the rest of the quotes, when you have a spiritual breakdown it is common to lash out at the force you feel as oppressing, while unfounded and not particularly great thoughts I can understand the frustration.

The same thing you feel when you "get" religion and feel you have a relationship with God is the same feeling you have when you "loose" religion, and realize you were living a lie. look at it that way and you will understand. I spend much time on another board who deals with mostly Cult survivors, I see this all the time, with time they realize it is not the fault of the religion or of a God if they choose to believe in one, we can change much just by changing our view.

I think with this in mind we can both understand each others passion and each others views, I certainly understand and respect yours I have been there, perhaps you have been were I am too.

Originally posted by ebuddy:
You don't need God to be a good person, but you need God to be a Spiritual person. These things are not revealed to one in the natural, but one in the supernatural.

I had a void during religion, it was filled when I broke from that and had a personal awakening. Seeking "spirituality" implies there is a spirit, once that was gone I truly became full of what this is all about, utter peace.

You can use the word "spiritual" in many different ways, Buddhists don't need God to be spiritual, in the sense they define spiritual, it is all just peace in your own mind, looking to fill something we have created mostly through nurture. Do you truly believe a person who has never heard or thought of the concept of God is "missing" something? Is feeling unfulfilled, has a void?

I realize I am here, an animal who gets to partake in this great world, it is amazing, yes! Do I need anything else, am I missing something? No matter how many times I am told I am, I am not. I had a personal relationship with God at one point in my life, I felt fulfilled, yet now I am more fulfilled more content and happier than I have ever been.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
If you don't mind me asking Mikellanes; Your time is almost up? Are you being serious or was this meant in a rhetorical sense that I may have missed?

We have a certain amount of time here. I will assume, with no immediate developments in science, I am closer to the end the the start.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by mikellanes:
The same thing you feel when you "get" religion and feel you have a relationship with God is the same feeling you have when you "loose" religion, and realize you were living a lie.

that's exactly how i felt as well. except when i started seeing things for what they are, my understanding of the world became more complete. it was almost like waking up from a dream, where little made sense, and everything was viewed from a 'single perspective'.

but in 'essence', i have stayed the same 'person'. and now, since i know what the 'language' constructing religion actually 'means', i can very quickly tell who is a TRULY spiritual person and who only pays lip-service. and from everything i've experienced in my life, there are very few who actually travel that path. that's the way it was always meant to be, imho.

[ebuddy]

Were you a Jehovah's Witness Mikellanes?

That is not where I am. I don't have religion, I have Faith. I don't see people around me as 'heathens' and sinners. I see them as children of God. Why? Because I too am a heathen and a sinner. This is not damnation, it's truth. We've also been redeemed of this sin-nature and should go forth without the type of guilt I see so prevalent among those who "lost religion." You had to lose religion to lose that guilt. That's unfortunate IMHO, but I'm satisfied with your answers and as always wish you the best.

You may or may not have a void. I truly wouldn't know for certain. I will take your word on it, that you don't have a void. I see, at least in your posts; a focus on Christianity and God which I find interesting, but not necessarily enlightening in pointing out void or lack thereof. I'm glad to see that you are at least able to separate what God alledgedly said to us, from how people bastardize that communication. i.e. I'm glad you don't necessarily indict God as such, but realize these are 'people institutions' and generally serve 'people agendas'.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Were you a Jehovah's Witness Mikellanes?

I think this is a great question, as I see quite a few JWs seperate from their beliefs. At times they move on to other religions, but more often than not, when they leave they become atheists or non-theists. Their extremist form of Arianism, compounded with their weak theology, combine to create a great deal of disillusionment.

[dfiler]

Back to the topic!

I am an atheist who believes that most religious people truly believe in their faith. Simply being different from the majority of people around me has lead to some rather heated discussions on the subject. As an atheist, I am careful to not tread on religious toes, as I don't really care too much about what I view to be mythology. However, religious behavior and themes are frequently exhibited around me. Seems to me that most believe in their faith...

It must be different for religious people to approach the same question from their perspective. Atheists are generally 'in the closet' and certainly don't have ceremonies at public gatherings like graduations, dedications, meals, etc. Basically, it is difficult for an atheist to express conviction in their belief without being ostracized.

For these reasons it seems that atheists are more likely to accept the conviction of those who disagree with them. They are faced with it on a daily basis. This isn�t a fault of the theists. It�s hard to stay informed about a culture that they aren�t exposed to on a regular basis.

[budster101]

Originally posted by dfiler:
Back to the topic!

I am an atheist who believes that most religious people truly believe in their faith. Simply being different from the majority of people around me has lead to some rather heated discussions on the subject. As an atheist, I am careful to not tread on religious toes, as I don't really care too much about what I view to be mythology. However, religious behavior and themes are frequently exhibited around me. Seems to me that most believe in their faith...

It must be different for religious people to approach the same question from their perspective. Atheists are generally 'in the closet' and certainly don't have ceremonies at public gatherings like graduations, dedications, meals, etc. Basically, it is difficult for an atheist to express conviction in their belief without being ostracized.

For these reasons it seems that atheists are more likely to accept the conviction of those who disagree with them. They are faced with it on a daily basis. This isn�t a fault of the theists. It�s hard to stay informed about a culture that they aren�t exposed to on a regular basis.

You make some wonderful points in your post. I especially appreciate the line that states: "Basically, it is difficult for an atheist to express conviction in their *BELIEF* without being ostracized." Isn't this what most religious people get from many atheists? There are two shoes to both feet. It's all about respecting another's right to believe as they wish. Nobody is pushing religion on antheists, just like nobody is pushing gayness on straight people. Is it necessary to bring up the issue of no religion in public schools? If this is the case then why not, no gay people in public schools? or athesists? Where does it end? I've read so many times that you cannot become gay by common contact or ifluence of a gay person, but doesn't that apply to religion as well? It's not contageous is it? One of my hopes is that someday man will find consistency towards one another.

I think back to when the nazis wanted to march in Skokie, and I thought to myself, so what? Let them. It is up to those who live there to ignore them. The only reason a group of that type would do so, is just to insight anger. Their desired outcome is simple, as was the solution to circumvent it. People want to hate, and hate back. It's almost empowering in an otherwise unempowering world.

I think I'll just leave it open ended.

[dfiler]

Originally posted by budster101:
Isn't this what most religious people get from many atheists?

Actually no. Atheists rarely communicate their beliefs to anybody. Doing so, no matter how well intentioned, seems to work out badly for them in the end.

Edit: Granted, some atheists can be combative. Yet they are a small percentage. Atheists are a silent minority because disagreeing with the majority and/or organized religion has never easy. If anyone is keeping quiet about their beliefs... it is the atheists.