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Write Mac software and get rich, according to Wil Shipley (Page 2)
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tylor
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Jun 27, 2005, 12:27 AM
 
why are icons so expensive?
     
DeathMan
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Jun 27, 2005, 12:50 AM
 
You should say: Why are *good* icons so expensive.

Try to make one, and first, see how long it takes, and second, see if its any good.

A good icon is not just a pretty picture. I has to work like a logo, but at the same time, Aqua icons have to look somewhat photorealistic, often produced in some type of 3D environment. It requires the culmination of several fairly specialized skills to come up with a good icon. Some icons are free.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like I read that Panic paid under $1000 for each their icons, and they are pretty smoking nice. So their not *that* expensive.
     
tylor
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Jun 27, 2005, 12:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by DeathMan
You should say: Why are *good* icons so expensive.

Try to make one, and first, see how long it takes, and second, see if its any good.

A good icon is not just a pretty picture. I has to work like a logo, but at the same time, Aqua icons have to look somewhat photorealistic, often produced in some type of 3D environment. It requires the culmination of several fairly specialized skills to come up with a good icon. Some icons are free.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like I read that Panic paid under $1000 for each their icons, and they are pretty smoking nice. So their not *that* expensive.
1000 per icon? where do i learn how to make 'em? yeesh
     
goMac
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Jun 27, 2005, 01:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by DeathMan
You should say: Why are *good* icons so expensive.

Try to make one, and first, see how long it takes, and second, see if its any good.

A good icon is not just a pretty picture. I has to work like a logo, but at the same time, Aqua icons have to look somewhat photorealistic, often produced in some type of 3D environment. It requires the culmination of several fairly specialized skills to come up with a good icon. Some icons are free.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like I read that Panic paid under $1000 for each their icons, and they are pretty smoking nice. So their not *that* expensive.
I've managed to get some nice icons for cheap. $1000 is pretty expensive for me.

Panic, however, is one of the other very successful OS X shareware companies.
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Jan Van Boghout
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Jun 27, 2005, 01:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac
I've managed to get some nice icons for cheap. $1000 is pretty expensive for me.

Panic, however, is one of the other very successful OS X shareware companies.
I try to make all my icons myself. Definitely a big cost saver when making software.
     
goMac
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Jun 27, 2005, 03:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jan Van Boghout
I try to make all my icons myself. Definitely a big cost saver when making software.
I would but using Photoshop to make icons for me is like hammering nails with a wrench. I actually managed to make a pretty nice icon in Illustrator/Photoshop once, but it was a rare event. Usually I try to stick to 3D renderers.
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ambush
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Jun 27, 2005, 03:40 AM
 
ok.. I was away for like 2 days on mini-vacations... anyway.

First of all, Matas left school after like HS (he says he would never go back to school), if I'm not mistaken. I think software development is his passion, and that he loves money even more (look at his consumer blog.) Most of people who do shareware don't want to end up like Matas: someone without an university education.... Those guys live for money and fame, and hey, we can say they succeded (how many "me"s and "car"s in the slideshow?). Matas is an egocentric person, it is well known in the small community. He will never help anyone if you don't pay him like 1000 bucks or more. I know people like Adam Betts and Jasper Hauser who really help(ed) the community (Jasper is a TALENTED artist who does not charge much, when compared to Matas. Also, he does open source icons in Camino. Adam Betts is a very kind person who used to design top quality icons for cheap, when the clients were poor shareware developers.) While Matas focuses on monetary wealth, profit optimization and fame, some other designers and artists (David Lanham, Joe Loy, Louie Mantia, Piotr Gajos) really help the community.

What I didn't like was the tone used in his discourse. Look at ME. I'm so RICH, I'm so FAMOUS.

It's a generic capitalist discourse: you CAN be rich if you really work for it. "You will succeed." - "Follow your dreams", etc. The facts are as follows: more people fail, less people succeed. Not anyone can get rich. And the fact that you're developing for the Mac does not change the rules, at least for now (maybe there will be a penury of OSX programmers sometime, though). I'd say it's tougher, because Mac users demand more quality than, say, windows users (well known fact), so you have to spend more resources on GUI design, which costs ass loads of money. There are not 38971987 talented/cheap aqua artists out there, anyway.

I personally would not want to end up like Matas: I value university education. I use shareware to pay for my expenses. I don't want to do it as a living.

PS.: Panic probably gets their icon for free from Iconfactory. Or at least, at a discount rate.
     
ambush
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Jun 27, 2005, 03:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by mrfrost
I don't agree. Of course it all comes down to what you define "a lot of money".
Living off your software is very much possible, even without any kind of degree.
very much possible, but not very easy to do. for instance, I know the Kavasoft CEO (iConquer fame) does not have a lot of money -- at all.
     
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Jun 27, 2005, 03:52 AM
 
To be fair, I'm surprised Mike even does icon design anymore, with him working for Delicious Monster and all. All the other graphics artists you listed just do graphics.

I don't think this is the place to air out personal feelings about developer's personalities. I will say however, Omni treated developers exceptionally well. They opened a lot of source code and provided mailing lists. Delicious Monster was actually covered on the local news here. I wasn't in town to see it however.

Yeah, Panic's relationship with Iconfactory had slipped my mind. Lucky dogs.
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wjsdelicious
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Jun 27, 2005, 03:59 AM
 
Ambush: I truly apologize that my slides didn't say, "Work your hardest, and you'll probably fail." Clearly, they should have invited you to talk instead of me. You're an inspiration to us all.
     
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Jun 27, 2005, 05:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by wjsdelicious
Ambush: I truly apologize that my slides didn't say, "Work your hardest, and you'll probably fail." Clearly, they should have invited you to talk instead of me. You're an inspiration to us all.
     
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Jun 27, 2005, 06:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by wataru
Some of this backlash against Shipley sure looks to me like jealousy. As a person who's published an app or two but would still not describe himself as a "developer," I found it entertaining. The people who found that it rubbed them the wrong way here all seem to be "real" developers themselves. Just an observation.

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Jun 27, 2005, 06:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Superchicken
Fah, for your first version I'm sure you could find people to photoshop up icons if you had a good product for free and let you pay them later if ever. I'd do it.
Exactly, I couldn't tell you HOW many icons I have did for shareware apps just to get the app for free.
Originally Posted by wataru
I was able to get a great up-and-coming icon artist, Kenichi Yoshida, to do two icons for free, partly because we bartered services. Icons don't have to be expensive.
Yes I LOVE the barter system. Not just online but IRL too.

I'd rather do that than exchange money.

That way everyone gets what they want, and they don't feel ripped off.
Originally Posted by Jan Van Boghout
I try to make all my icons myself. Definitely a big cost saver when making software.
This is true, and the thing is, devs should do this. If your app is good and worth a darn, there WILL be artists offering to redo your icons for you for a free app.

I used to do it all the time.
Originally Posted by wjsdelicious
Ambush: I truly apologize that my slides didn't say, "Work your hardest, and you'll probably fail." Clearly, they should have invited you to talk instead of me. You're an inspiration to us all.
( Last edited by KevinK; Jun 27, 2005 at 06:24 AM. )
     
ambush
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Jun 27, 2005, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by wjsdelicious
Ambush: I truly apologize that my slides didn't say, "Work your hardest, and you'll probably fail." Clearly, they should have invited you to talk instead of me. You're an inspiration to us all.
Well, if you were not so centered on money and fame, it would have been OK

I don't adhere to the capitalist myth (YOU too can be as rich as me!!!), it makes me want to puke my guts out.

Otherwise, thank you for your contribution to the community (OmniFrameworks, game ports, etc.) I enjoy using Omni apps and I enjoyed beta testing DL.
     
Kevin
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Jun 27, 2005, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by ambush
Well, if you were not so centered on money and fame, it would have been OK

I don't adhere to the capitalist myth (YOU too can be as rich as me!!!), it makes me want to puke my guts out.

Otherwise, thank you for your contribution to the community (OmniFrameworks, game ports, etc.) I enjoy using Omni apps and I enjoyed beta testing DL.
And this is why he is more successful than you.

More tact.

BTW Ambush, you need to sell your computer. It was made and designed by evil capitalists. We wouldn't want you puking your guts out on that capitalist Macintosh of yours.
     
goMac
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Jun 27, 2005, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by ambush
Well, if you were not so centered on money and fame, it would have been OK
I don't think it's Wil's reputation you should be worried about right now. Criticizing his presentation is a lot different than criticizing him personally. Delicious Monster is a very popular company and this is a publicly read forum. I'm sure a lot of developers are looking at this too.
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selowitch
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Jun 27, 2005, 01:53 PM
 
Shipley makes some valid points. I have some advice for him:
  1. Run spell-check on your presentations before delivering them.
     
DeathMan
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Jun 27, 2005, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jan Van Boghout
I try to make all my icons myself. Definitely a big cost saver when making software.
And I must say, you do a great job, Jan.
     
Hugi
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Jun 27, 2005, 05:42 PM
 
Excellent presentation, very inspirational. Just what I needed to push myself over a certain edge.

That's one helluva ugly car, though (spits out sour grapes)
     
tylor
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Jun 27, 2005, 05:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hugi
Excellent presentation, very inspirational. Just what I needed to push myself over a certain edge.

That's one helluva ugly car, though (spits out sour grapes)
me too. it's made me want to code... a lot. but i must first learn how. hmmmm, how
     
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Jun 27, 2005, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by DeathMan
You should say: Why are *good* icons so expensive.

Try to make one, and first, see how long it takes, and second, see if its any good.

A good icon is not just a pretty picture. I has to work like a logo, but at the same time, Aqua icons have to look somewhat photorealistic, often produced in some type of 3D environment. It requires the culmination of several fairly specialized skills to come up with a good icon. Some icons are free.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like I read that Panic paid under $1000 for each their icons, and they are pretty smoking nice. So their not *that* expensive.
$1000 icons? I should probably re-negotiate the deal I made with Adriaan for making the icons for Ecto (yes, I did it for the registration...)

[ fb ] [ flickr ] [] [scl] [ last ] [ plaxo ]
     
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Jun 27, 2005, 10:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by selowitch
Shipley makes some valid points. I have some advice for him:
  1. Run spell-check on your presentations before delivering them.
I didn't see any misspellings that weren't obviously intentional.
     
DeathMan
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Jun 28, 2005, 12:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
$1000 icons? I should probably re-negotiate the deal I made with Adriaan for making the icons for Ecto (yes, I did it for the registration...)
Great Icon, though. The problem seems to be, as a designer, if you want too much, they'll find someone who will do one for the registration. There seem to be enough visual people interested in shareware that Aqua Icons aren't at as much of a premium as I thought.

I could be way off track with that, but it seems like maybe they were $500 or thereabouts, and I guessed high. Less than $1000. I should have said less than $1,000,000. Maybe someone from Panic can clarify, or Iconfactory. (If you ever see this.)
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 01:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by wataru
I was able to get a great up-and-coming icon artist, Kenichi Yoshida, to do two icons for free, partly because we bartered services. Icons don't have to be expensive.
Those are nice...
If anyone wants to use this icon for something:


Just gimmie a mail at isalty on gmail. That one took a few hours to design. But icons aren't that hard if you're decent with Photoshop. Though I will say that trying to make one that actually compares well to Apple's while in your dock is very difficult.
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 06:30 AM
 
You can buy a Lotus, too, if your company office is the local coffee shop!

Delicious Library is one of those apps that anyone who has a mild OCD about media organization and neat-o technology (me!) causes them to get all giddy. After showing DL to a friend who is a Windows user (and fellow media OC), they went out and bought a Mac to run DL - no kidding!
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 08:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by DeathMan
Great Icon, though. The problem seems to be, as a designer, if you want too much, they'll find someone who will do one for the registration. There seem to be enough visual people interested in shareware that Aqua Icons aren't at as much of a premium as I thought.

I could be way off track with that, but it seems like maybe they were $500 or thereabouts, and I guessed high. Less than $1000. I should have said less than $1,000,000. Maybe someone from Panic can clarify, or Iconfactory. (If you ever see this.)
You wouldn't be far off - thats roughly the price for individual icons for major developers. Shareware developers usually are charged much less. Flat rates are great for both the designer and the customer, but sometimes it works out better for all involved if you charge by the hour. Icons takes a looong time to make...
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Jun 28, 2005, 10:34 AM
 
It's a $45,000 car, calm down people.

Yes, these guys have done well and they should be proud of their work. They're making more money than most small developers, and they're making good products. But let's not blow this out of proportion.

I do think the presentation would be quite motivational to kids, so it does the job. There's a reason for the perceived "cockiness" and exaggeration.
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 11:16 AM
 
Most motivational speakers are...
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Superchicken
Those are nice...
If anyone wants to use this icon for something:


Just gimmie a mail at isalty on gmail. That one took a few hours to design. But icons aren't that hard if you're decent with Photoshop. Though I will say that trying to make one that actually compares well to Apple's while in your dock is very difficult.
Sorry but that doesn't look particularly tasty.
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by esXXI
Sorry but that doesn't look particularly tasty.
Looks great in my dock. I made it to match pages. The two apps look great side by side (I use it for PS Elements 2).

And for the record,
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
     
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Jun 28, 2005, 06:52 PM
 
This entire thread hits close to home: I'm a college student and (sort of) developer, and I appreciate the comments all around, from Ambush, wataru, and Wil.

I cannot profess to be an expert on teaching methods, but I consider them very important and have always considered myself a fairly good communicator with people of my same age. Since this Powerpoint was shown at a developer's conference to college students, I think this presentation was probably a good one to attend. I get the feeling that it was primarily intended to re-energize and boost the students' morale about programming. From others' reports, that's what WWDC (and many other conference) are primarily meant to do: re-energize.

Given this, I think the presentation was effective. And, overall, I agree with a lot of the points, and don't feel it was presented in an overly obnoxious way. I'm assuming, from Wil's attitude, that it was all done rather humorously.

The Mac versus Windows statistics are entirely true... too true, true in a detrimental way. One would think marketing to a bigger portion would help sales, but it simply doesn't; the majority of my sales, even after putting my Windows game under scrutiny to make sure I have bugs shook out (or at least on par with my Mac version), my Mac sales are infinitely greater than Windows.

I get a small sensation of sour grapes with some of posts, as wataru mentioned, but not overly much. I wouldn't say Wil has been more tactful than Ambush (as KevinK says), but I think Wil has a more positive attitude that will get him more sales. Especially this statement:
Originally Posted by Ambush
I don't adhere to the capitalist myth (YOU too can be as rich as me!!!), it makes me want to puke my guts out.
Then, as someone else said, stop using a computer. Stop selling anything, really. Why are you trying to sell software if you don't believe in capitalism? And if you "sort of" do, but just don't think you really can become hugely rich... why have such a negative attitude? What's stopping you?

(The $2500 investment number by goMac is absurd, by the way... I think having a Mac is a given, and a paid dev. membership is absolutely unnecessary. I've never had one, and have helped pay for some college and got spending money for high school.)


For the presentation's facts: I agree, Mac development is way better than Windows, but don't quit college.

For the presentation's tone: it invigorated and encouraged my programming spirit, and makes me want to sit down at my Mac and code, even though I'm not using Cocoa. That means it did its job, if I'm interpreting its purpose correctly... what do you think, Wil?
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 01:00 AM
 
I need to learn to control my awesomeness.
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 01:12 AM
 
Of course Will is nicer than Ambush... everyone knows Ambush is an ass...
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 01:20 AM
 
I'm not a developer and I don't program anything, but I do know this: It is fairly easy to see who the unsuccessful, jealous people are on this thread, and they will never ever make it, not with that bitter attitude. There's a word for such people> Losers

     
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Jun 29, 2005, 01:26 AM
 
Now Pachead, where is your good sports-man-ship?

     
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Jun 29, 2005, 01:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by jamil5454
I need to learn to control my awesomeness.
ha.
     
goMac
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Jun 29, 2005, 04:45 AM
 
Funkboy, you're talking about the difference between having some money in high school, and having a company that can pay the bills. I spent all my time coding on a Power Mac G3 until two years ago. Yes, it got me some extra money. But, I mean, this isn't talking lets just do some coding on your own. This is saying, hey, lets form a company to make some serious money. It's very different. Having done both, I can say, doing my own thing was a lot more fun than forming some company. Companies have politics. Companies need resources to maintain (unlike a lone person programming). Companies need to set priorities. Companies demand their own hardware (servers anyone?). I mean, one thing about Delicious Monster is they started out with a lot. I'm sure some money was infused from what they made at Omni. They had contacts with Apple. They probably had a few ex-Omni people. I mean, you have to admit, this isn't like what your average broke student has to go through starting a company. Not to mention, this was a college student crowd. I don't know about other computer science majors on here, but we're kinda tight on time, and can't really worry about these things. And dropping out of college to work on Mac software is kinda sorta a huge risk. I mean, Mike for example didn't go to college. And it worked out well for him. But like I said, he had a lot behind him and could afford to take risks. The rest of us can't.

If it were magical goMacLand (which it isn't, and would probably be a scary place anyway), I probably would have told students that they can drive the future of Macintosh software and left money out of it. Because, quite honestly, money isn't the reason we write Mac software. We do it because it's fun. Like I said before, I'd do it for free. Instead of encouraging students to write Mac software to make money, and burn them out when they realize it's a rare occurrence (if I had a dime for every student developer that didn't make it big, I'd probably be able to buy a nice car myself). But I know like myself, other student developers aren't in it for the money. Most of us are in it to try new things no one has done before, and leave a mark. We want to play with what Apple gives us and take it to the max. Money has nothing to do with it. I would have just told students "You're the future, push the Mac to the limit, students like you change the Mac every day".

So yeah, thats my argument in a nutshell. Concentration on business and money, not so cool. Coding tips and follow your dreams stuff, was cool.
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Jun 29, 2005, 05:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by ambush
You can always do everything yourself.

My point is that, usually, programmers are not Aqua designers.
Ranty teenage Québécois "programmers" are not entrepreneurs.
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 05:20 AM
 
I think you guys are missing the point that Omni and Delicious Monster software ain't your average shareware. Those are very well designed and inspiring programs. I can't think of another "shareware developer" with that much functionality, polish, and overall design excellence except for maybe David Watanabe and the Quicksilver guy. Any other shareware I use is not even in the same league but it does the job.
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 05:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by ambush
very much possible, but not very easy to do. for instance, I know the Kavasoft CEO (iConquer fame) does not have a lot of money -- at all.
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? I have actually seen the figures at a point in the past, but I'm not going to discuss them here for obvious reasons.
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 05:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Nick
It's a $45,000 car, calm down people.

Yes, these guys have done well and they should be proud of their work. They're making more money than most small developers, and they're making good products. But let's not blow this out of proportion.
It should also be noted that Omni are not just some students peddling shareware on the side whilst enrolled in full-time education. They're an established company, they've been at it for 10 years or more, they have many full-time employees. WJS didn't get to where he is overnight. They had enough money to bankroll the start-up of Delicious Monster and development of their first product, and enough friends to contribute out of their own free time because they wanted to (various other Omni people were hacking on Library during their vacation, I seem to remember) to see the project through.

Being "successful" takes a lot of time, effort, skill and motivation. Most of the people here seem to be upset because they don't have one or more of those.
     
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Jun 29, 2005, 08:32 AM
 
Some people don't want to work hard for it. They want it handed to them.

No wonder ambush is all for socialist ideals.
     
sanity assassin
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Jun 29, 2005, 08:41 AM
 
I'll never own my own company ever again, well not in the field I work in. When I did, I spent more time administrating the whole thing rather than doing what I loved.

In any case, where I work now, I'm making more in a year than I did in 5 when I was self-employed.
Rockstar Games - better than reality.
     
goMac
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Jun 29, 2005, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by lngtones
I think you guys are missing the point that Omni and Delicious Monster software ain't your average shareware. Those are very well designed and inspiring programs. I can't think of another "shareware developer" with that much functionality, polish, and overall design excellence except for maybe David Watanabe and the Quicksilver guy. Any other shareware I use is not even in the same league but it does the job.
See Angus's post.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
ambush
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Jun 29, 2005, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Angus_D
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? I have actually seen the figures at a point in the past, but I'm not going to discuss them here for obvious reasons.
Well I talked with the owner, and he told me that it's not a lot of money.
     
tylor
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Jun 29, 2005, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Nick
It's a $45,000 car, calm down people.
best 45k you can spend
     
Superchicken
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Jun 29, 2005, 11:11 PM
 
Not to mention... ambush is complaining that people didn't buy his software... his biggest app is a menuling... I hate menulings...
     
budster101
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Jun 29, 2005, 11:43 PM
 
Actually, the care is closer to $50,000 USED right now.... not when he bought it. He may have paid $80,000 for the car, not that it would command any more respect from this lot. (pun intended)

     
lngtones
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Jun 30, 2005, 01:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by ambush
very much possible, but not very easy to do. for instance, I know the Kavasoft CEO (iConquer fame) does not have a lot of money -- at all.
That's probably because Kavasoft doesn't make any software that is actually useful for something. iConquer doesn't look too exciting, why spend $15 on that. Shoebox is basically an ugly iPhoto. The other things are very basic projects that don't offer anything special.

It just reaks of college kid trying to make some pocket money. I applaud him for his efforts. Actually creating something and releasing it takes quite a bit of work and he has done a lot more than most people.

However, the world of business in most cases rewards people proportionally and appropriately to how much effort and talent they put into it relative to the competition.

On topic, I don't see how you can really compare Kavasoft to what Omni and Delicious Monster have done. Not in the same league.
     
 
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