[ctt1wbw]

I just "stumbled upon" another, yet another, 9/11 conspiracy theory website. This one dealt with supposed "nano thermite" dust in the ashes of the WTC 1 and 2 buildings. Whatever nanothermite is... Anyway, all these people say 9/11 was an inside job, planned and orchestrated by then President Bush and VP Cheney... and NOT Islamic terrorists.

So I got to thinking, would there be all these "inside job" wacko websites if 9/11 had happened on Obama's watch? Would most of the Obama haters be saying the same things under these circumstances, just like most of the Bush haters say it was an inside job? Follow me here?

[ghporter]

Tinfoil comes in both blue and red... It's not politics, it's paranoia and mistrust of government that fuels these things. And it's not too much of a stretch to say that mistrusting our government is easy to do; our government has goofed so many times on so many things.

But here's the crux of why these theorists are wrong: those goofs are because "government" is a bunch of humans, acting on their own drives and with their own internal rules. It's not some monolithic thing that moves as one, "Borg-like" machine, it's a lot of work-a-day schlubs trying to make a living, managed by a bunch of C-student business majors trying to "make their mark." That's why there are so many screw ups; those C-students aren't adept at making the right call.

I worked for "the government" in the military for a LONG time. In my experience, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have any sort of widespread secret operation remain secret. UFOs stored in the desert? There would have been LOTS more leaks and evidence walking out of storage. Our government going to very complex extremes to kill a lot of Americans just to push into an anti-Islamic crusade (that didn't really have a focus)? There would have been a ton of people blurting out that they'd been involved. And the "coverups" that these theorists report are way too wimpy for an organization that sacrificed 3,000 lives-all this so-called evidence they're pointing out would never have seen the light of day, and the people outing it would have disappeared.

By the way, Occam's Razor says that the World Trade Center towers were brought down by high temperature damage to the steel structures supporting the top third or so of the towers, not some extremely complex, Byzantine conspiracy. Oh, and "thermite" is actually a combination of finely divided aluminum powder and finely divided iron powder, so finding traces of burned iron (from steel) and aluminum (from the airplanes) in the debris of the towers is VERY logical and easily consistent with the official (and WITNESSED) events.

[Eug]

ctt, Why do you even bother wasting your time with that? They're just wackjobs.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Tinfoil comes in both blue and red... It's not politics, it's paranoia and mistrust of government that fuels these things. And it's not too much of a stretch to say that mistrusting our government is easy to do; our government has goofed so many times on so many things.

But here's the crux of why these theorists are wrong: those goofs are because "government" is a bunch of humans, acting on their own drives and with their own internal rules. It's not some monolithic thing that moves as one, "Borg-like" machine, it's a lot of work-a-day schlubs trying to make a living, managed by a bunch of C-student business majors trying to "make their mark." That's why there are so many screw ups; those C-students aren't adept at making the right call.

I worked for "the government" in the military for a LONG time. In my experience, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have any sort of widespread secret operation remain secret. UFOs stored in the desert? There would have been LOTS more leaks and evidence walking out of storage. Our government going to very complex extremes to kill a lot of Americans just to push into an anti-Islamic crusade (that didn't really have a focus)? There would have been a ton of people blurting out that they'd been involved. And the "coverups" that these theorists report are way too wimpy for an organization that sacrificed 3,000 lives-all this so-called evidence they're pointing out would never have seen the light of day, and the people outing it would have disappeared.

By the way, Occam's Razor says that the World Trade Center towers were brought down by high temperature damage to the steel structures supporting the top third or so of the towers, not some extremely complex, Byzantine conspiracy. Oh, and "thermite" is actually a combination of finely divided aluminum powder and finely divided iron powder, so finding traces of burned iron (from steel) and aluminum (from the airplanes) in the debris of the towers is VERY logical and easily consistent with the official (and WITNESSED) events.

That's exactly what they want you to think!

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I worked for "the government" in the military for a LONG time. In my experience, it's IMPOSSIBLE to have any sort of widespread secret operation remain secret. UFOs stored in the desert? There would have been LOTS more leaks and evidence walking out of storage. Our government going to very complex extremes to kill a lot of Americans just to push into an anti-Islamic crusade (that didn't really have a focus)? There would have been a ton of people blurting out that they'd been involved. And the "coverups" that these theorists report are way too wimpy for an organization that sacrificed 3,000 lives-all this so-called evidence they're pointing out would never have seen the light of day, and the people outing it would have disappeared.

The basic rule to remember when maintaining a conspiracy is that if you double the number of people who know a secret, you square the chances said secret will fnord be revealed.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by subego 

The basic rule to remember when maintaining a conspiracy is that if you double the number of people who know a secret, you square the chances said secret will be revealed.

This is why the true conspiracy in only known to the Cabal, who mobilizes the resources of the Shadow Government on a need-to-know basis. Even if several squares divulge what they know, the square root of the sum of all the secrets revealed doesn't add up to the whole picture....fnord^2

[SpaceMonkey]

Au contraire, it's easy to maintain a conspiracy if all of the conspirators are trans-dimensional extraterrestrials. Don't think for a second that these people aren't a part of it, either.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Eug 

ctt, Why do you even bother wasting your time with that? They're just wackjobs.

Oh, I know they are wackjobs. It's just that everyone of those wackjobs hates Bush, so they blame him for planting explosives and ****. So, logic would say that with all the slathering love and "cum on my tits, Obama" love affair with Obama, nobody would blame him like they did Bush. It's just an opinion I was thinking about.

[sek929]

I think the majority of 9/11 conspiracy theorists distrust all government, not just Bush per se. There is most certainly a subset of the aforementioned wackos that were in it for hating on Bush, but I doubt he was the driver of the theory.

...and just for sh!ts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-Fe-IwAPA8

Skip to around 1 minute.

[ctt1wbw]

Ha, that's hilarious.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Oh, I know they are wackjobs. It's just that everyone of those wackjobs hates Bush, so they blame him for planting explosives and ****. So, logic would say that with all the slathering love and "cum on my tits, Obama" love affair with Obama, nobody would blame him like they did Bush. It's just an opinion I was thinking about.

It may just be your perception of things. Granted, Obama (esp. because he's new) is overall more popular than Bush was near the end of his term, but there are plenty of wackjobs out there who think Obama is a Osama-loving terrorist.

Don't you remember the time where even McCain had to defend Obama from the wackjobs?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Tinfoil comes in both blue and red... It's not politics, it's paranoia and mistrust of government that fuels these things.

...And lack of 757-shaped holes on the Pentagon lawn.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

...And lack of 757-shaped holes on the Pentagon lawn.

Bad camera angles do not negate the fact that PARTS of the aircraft were found inside the D Ring/E Ring greenway, nor that independent witnesses SAW the airplane fly into the building, nor that the terrorist flying that plane managed to get the nose of the plane in contact with about the 7-foot level of the outside of the building (it didn't slide much).

Sensitive about this? Me? YOU BET I AM. People I KNOW (including one I served under) were there that day and saw what happened. Considering how much evidence there is about this and the other three hijacked planes, I get really riled up when people suggest that either something other than these planes (loaded with 11.5 THOUSAND GALLONS (or almost 80,000 POUNDS) of jet fuel) destroyed the WTC towers-especially the sub-group that claims that the airplanes were actually remotely controlled and that the "hijackers" were secreted off to somewhere in the Midwest. I SAW the second plane hit the second tower on live TV for crying out loud. I've seen the parking lot surveillance video showing the aircraft flying by (at about 2 feet off the dirt) into the Pentagon. And yet people with no scientific training whatsoever, without the slightest idea about how much it cost the people who stormed the terrorists on the fourth plane, without any trust in ANYTHING, have to come up with far-fetched suppositions about how almost three thousand people died that day. They are pathetic.

Oh, I got carried away a bit there, didn't I. Sorry.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It may just be your perception of things. Granted, Obama (esp. because he's new) is overall more popular than Bush was near the end of his term, but there are plenty of wackjobs out there who think Obama is a Osama-loving terrorist.

Don't you remember the time where even McCain had to defend Obama from the wackjobs?

Well, it may be skewed perception, but from what I've seen, most of the "inside job" wackheads hate Bush... And I still think Obama isn't what he says he is concerning his religion. I don't know too many Southern Baptists with a middle name of Hussein, do you?

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Bad camera angles do not negate the fact that PARTS of the aircraft were found inside the D Ring/E Ring greenway, nor that independent witnesses SAW the airplane fly into the building, nor that the terrorist flying that plane managed to get the nose of the plane in contact with about the 7-foot level of the outside of the building (it didn't slide much).

Sensitive about this? Me? YOU BET I AM. People I KNOW (including one I served under) were there that day and saw what happened. Considering how much evidence there is about this and the other three hijacked planes, I get really riled up when people suggest that either something other than these planes (loaded with 11.5 THOUSAND GALLONS (or almost 80,000 POUNDS) of jet fuel) destroyed the WTC towers-especially the sub-group that claims that the airplanes were actually remotely controlled and that the "hijackers" were secreted off to somewhere in the Midwest. I SAW the second plane hit the second tower on live TV for crying out loud. I've seen the parking lot surveillance video showing the aircraft flying by (at about 2 feet off the dirt) into the Pentagon. And yet people with no scientific training whatsoever, without the slightest idea about how much it cost the people who stormed the terrorists on the fourth plane, without any trust in ANYTHING, have to come up with far-fetched suppositions about how almost three thousand people died that day. They are pathetic.

Oh, I got carried away a bit there, didn't I. Sorry.

Hey, you remember the one about the plane landed in Ohio or something and the passengers were offloaded? Now all the people in the plane are still alive.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Well, it may be skewed perception, but from what I've seen, most of the "inside job" wackheads hate Bush...

Yeah, but Bush was in power when this happened. If a wackjob is going to blame anyone, it's going to be the people in power, especially s/he doesn't like them.

And I still think Obama isn't what he says he is concerning his religion. I don't know too many Southern Baptists with a middle name of Hussein, do you?

Uh oh. Quite frankly, that sounds almost wackjobbish too. Furthermore, you probably wouldn't even care if he wasn't prez.

Anyways, I don't know many Southern Baptists at all, but I do know very many Christians with middle eastern names.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Bad camera angles do not negate the fact that PARTS of the aircraft were found inside the D Ring/E Ring greenway, nor that independent witnesses SAW the airplane fly into the building, nor that the terrorist flying that plane managed to get the nose of the plane in contact with about the 7-foot level of the outside of the building (it didn't slide much).

Sensitive about this? Me? YOU BET I AM. People I KNOW (including one I served under) were there that day and saw what happened. Considering how much evidence there is about this and the other three hijacked planes, I get really riled up when people suggest that either something other than these planes (loaded with 11.5 THOUSAND GALLONS (or almost 80,000 POUNDS) of jet fuel) destroyed the WTC towers-especially the sub-group that claims that the airplanes were actually remotely controlled and that the "hijackers" were secreted off to somewhere in the Midwest. I SAW the second plane hit the second tower on live TV for crying out loud. I've seen the parking lot surveillance video showing the aircraft flying by (at about 2 feet off the dirt) into the Pentagon. And yet people with no scientific training whatsoever, without the slightest idea about how much it cost the people who stormed the terrorists on the fourth plane, without any trust in ANYTHING, have to come up with far-fetched suppositions about how almost three thousand people died that day. They are pathetic.

Oh, I got carried away a bit there, didn't I. Sorry.

I know, I know.
Just pointing out there there *are* a few holes (or perceived holes) in the whole story which people can (and will) jump on.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I know, I know.
Just pointing out there there *are* a few holes (or perceived holes) in the whole story which people can (and will) jump on.

Or lack of holes.

[olePigeon]

Tinfoil increases reception of radio waves. I think tinfoil hats are a government ploy to trick people into waring them so they can spy on your thoughts.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I know, I know.
Just pointing out there there *are* a few holes (or perceived holes) in the whole story which people can (and will) jump on.

The perception of holes in stuff that has as much evidence as the three plane crashes on September 11 is an indication that some people cannot accept that a few driven people could be so hard and hateful that they could do this-or that our government could be caught so off guard. But a government is made up of people with human failings and that is the whole point; those people discounted al Quaida for a number of (unimportant at the moment) reasons. And thousands of people paid with their lives.

Or these folks just can't stand having something so horrific be "just" a large international, supposedly religiously-based conspiracy, because hating our own government is much more fun. Either way it's silly.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Or lack of holes.

There are a few issues that aren't well understood, and those issues are the crux of the "holes." For example, steel burns, as does aluminum. Who knew that? (I did, but then I was quite the experimenter as a young teen. ) So how does an airplane running into a huge steel and concrete structure cause it to collapse? By shoving tons of jet fuel into the center of the towers, and burning several floors of the steel structure that supports it. That allowed the upper floors to begin collapsing, which disrupted the stability of the whole tower and it crumbled (almost straight down). This happened twice. A lot of people can't fathom how tall buildings stand up in the first place, so they get all revved up about how such strong structures could fail.

[Eug]

ie. Some people are idiot wackjobs.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by olepigeon 

tinfoil increases reception of radio waves. I think tinfoil hats are a government ploy to trick people into waring them so they can spy on your thoughts.

t-i-t-c-r

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Eug 

ie. Some people are idiot wackjobs.

t-i-also-t-c-r

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Eug 

ie. Some people are idiot wackjobs.

Well....yeah. But ignorance is pretty common too. Scared and ignorant people are easily confused and very easily led astray by real whack jobs.

[ctt1wbw]

Like Al Gore?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Like Al Gore?

No, he's a pompous, ignorant person. He decides where he wants to go and then makes up (or finds others to do it for him) that data that points him there. Big difference.

[Chongo]

Speaking of conspiracies..

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

And yet people with no scientific training whatsoever, without the slightest idea about how much it cost the people who stormed the terrorists on the fourth plane, without any trust in ANYTHING, have to come up with far-fetched suppositions about how almost three thousand people died that day. They are pathetic.

Hehe. Now you maybe understand why some of us Europeans belittle / pity e.g. the American Justice system. A bunch of Joe Schmoes are presented by scientific techno-babble show from two parties. And in the end have to vote for a "w1nnar!" of the show (typically against the Negro, unless the Negro is famous and has a big entourage).

PB.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Hehe. Now you maybe understand why some of us Europeans belittle / pity e.g. the American Justice system. A bunch of Joe Schmoes are presented by scientific techno-babble show from two parties. And in the end have to vote for a "w1nnar!" of the show (typically against the Negro, unless the Negro is famous and has a big entourage).

PB.

When done correctly, the expert witness puts the heavy-duty science into straightforward terms that Joe Schmoe should be able to understand. In practice, this does mean having to explain things at a 7th grade level or so. That's due to the unfortunately large number of "citizens" who want to take advantage of that status but not actually DO anything to earn it. Like vote or jury duty...

No I don't have any strong feelings about that.

But seriously, do not let TV give you the impression that a bunch of high-brows snow the jury with babble that goes way over their heads. Usually, both attorneys work VERY hard at not having their own witnesses make them, and their case, look bad by appearing to sound above the jury.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Oh, I got carried away a bit there, didn't I. Sorry.

No you didn't.

I think the biggest joke that the loosechange crowd doesn't get is that if they had really uncovered this grand conspiracy, there wouldn't be a loosechange video for them to rally around. There'd just be a couple of dead jackass college kids and a missing hard drive. If the government is going to commit such a grand conspiracy and kill 3,000 Americans in the process, they sure is hell wouldn't let the whole ting be undone by a couple of idiots with a macbook and a copy of FCP.

Have you ever looked at the loosechange forums? I was shocked at the amount nastiness directed at the victims. They act like those 3,000 people were in on it and gave their lives in the service of Bush and Co. and they mock the families that don't accept this conspiracy BS as gospel. Absolutely disgusting.

When conspiracy theories started floating around about flight 800 being shot down by a navy ship, someone was quoted as saying "If that ship shot that plane down, don't you think there would be a bunch of 18 year old machinists mates telling their girlfriends and families, even if they were told it was a national security issue?" (I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it). And that's a very good point. You can't tell me that someone wouldn't have blabbed about 9/11. Huge involved conspiracies make for good television, but they don't really stand up in the real world.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

When conspiracy theories started floating around about flight 800 being shot down by a navy ship, someone was quoted as saying "If that ship shot that plane down, don't you think there would be a bunch of 18 year old machinists mates telling their girlfriends and families, even if they were told it was a national security issue?" (I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it). And that's a very good point. You can't tell me that someone wouldn't have blabbed about 9/11. Huge involved conspiracies make for good television, but they don't really stand up in the real world.

Precisely. People seem to think that being in the military somehow locks people's brains or something. Hardly. Lots of people are just dying to learn "secret stuff" until they find out how boring and tedious it is just to get your clearance paperwork done. No 18 year old kid could be expected to keep secret something THAT important and - to him - really cool. The same is true for "explosives bringing down the towers" and "what's really in those hangars at Area 51.

The whole "Area 51" bit just floors me. The standard Air Force controlled area access badge has 25 numbered spaces on each side, from 1-25 on the viewer's left, 26-50 on the right. Plenty of numbers for each separate controlled area. But these areas are still only numbered from 1-50. So the logic goes that "super secret stuff" goes on in a controlled area that you can't get a badge for, starting with area 51. Nope.