[Helmling]

Ahmadinejad just went and said that Israel is destined to be wiped off the map again.

Good lord...wouldn't it be nice if the U.S. had the political will, diplomatic ties, military resources available to try to deal with this whack-job's country?

Sadly, our lame duck in chief squandered it all...(sigh)

Commence partisan bickering in...three...two...one...

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Commence partisan bickering in...three...two...one...

ok

Sadly, our lame duck in chief squandered it all...(sigh)

I doubt if Bush went for Iran instead of Iraq things would be any different with those that made their mind up before he was even sworn in. Lets be honest with ourselves. And to those of you that will reply saying otherwise. Don't bother.

[goMac]

I don't think Iran would touch Israel. First, there are too many Palestinians in Israel to actually nuke it. Secondly, nuking Israel doesn't gain Iran anything, and Iran knows it. And 3rd, Ahmadinejad is... opinionated very strangely... but I don't think he's Kim Jong Ill crazy.

But of course the gossiping school girls of the right will be all over this one. Honestly, Iran needs to be dealt with over the Iraq situation, but we shouldn't bother entertaining Ahmadinejad on this. If Ahmadinejad wants to tear his credibility to pieces in the international community, fine. But it's no reason for our country to get it's panties in a wad.

[Kevin]

After all it's not like he is a terrorist or hijacked planes or anything.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

After all it's not like he is a terrorist or hijacked planes or anything.

Ok, so he could have committed acts of terrorism. (Let's ignore for a moment the moral issues or the "there is no way in hell we're ever going to try him for those crimes" issue). Him being a hijacker means he has interests that are probably contrary to those of our government. Now let's step back for a moment and knee jerk this. It doesn't mean he is an irrational politician. He's a lot like Hussein was. His views are not widely accepted, but he is not a moron. He's not the kinda guy that's simply going to lob nukes at other countries for the hell of it. He knows the Iran has nothing to gain by nuking Israel, and in fact, a lot to loose.

Again, the bigger problem is Iran's influence in Iraq. Iran's influence in Iraq, unlike the Israel nuke thing, is in Iran's interest to promote.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Ahmadinejad just went and said that Israel is destined to be wiped off the map again.

And the weirdest thing is that even 6 ultraorthodox American Jews joined the conference to support this!


Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

[OreoCookie]

According to the news reports I've seen it was a very boring conference even for the participants. The President was nowhere to be seen, only the Minister Of Foreign Affairs was present.

I was also baffled to hear that some orthodox Jews were participating as well. At first, I thought they want to `fight back', but then I got confused …

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by badidea 

And the weirdest thing is that even 6 ultraorthodox American Jews joined the conference to support this!


Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

Yeah, that's the ultimate scum Neturei Karta, a tiny wacko group which wants another Holocaust to occur because of a totally false and long outmoded belief that a Jewish state in the land of Israel can only come about through a direct, revealed action of God. They're Jewish Jew-haters, which makes them worse than any other kind of Jew-hater on the planet.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Ahmadinejad just went and said that Israel is destined to be wiped off the map again.

Really? I thought he said the following.

"Just as the USSR disappeared, soon the Zionist regime will disappear,"

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran: Israel 'will end like USSR'

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

According to the news reports I've seen it was a very boring conference even for the participants. The President was nowhere to be seen, only the Minister Of Foreign Affairs was present.

I was also baffled to hear that some orthodox Jews were participating as well. At first, I thought they want to `fight back', but then I got confused …

Really?

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has told a conference in Tehran questioning the Holocaust that Israel's days are numbered.

"Just as the USSR disappeared, soon the Zionist regime will disappear," he said to the applause of the participants.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran: Israel 'will end like USSR'

And perhaps this is just some PS job then?




Only 7 replies into the thread and already the facts are being ignored...... Well, I'll let you guys continue to ignore the facts. Because after all, villifying Iran is much more important than getting the facts right isn't it? That worked out so well when using the same tactic against Iraq so why not try it again?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Really? I thought he said the following.

No, no, no. Didn't you read the topic??! According to Helmling he clearly said something very nasty and anti-semetic like always. Who can trust a word that comes out of the Biased Communist Center anyway?

V

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Only 7 replies into the thread and already the facts are being ignored......

What's not a fact in my post???
BTW, you're picture is the one I was searching for!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

After all it's not like he is a terrorist or hijacked planes or anything.

People keep getting Iran and Saudi Arabia confused...I think that's because Saudi Arabia are your "friends"...

[Sky Captain]

No Sayf, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is ignoring the facts over the Holocaust.
Lets get the facts here straight.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

No Sayf, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is ignoring the facts over the Holocaust.
Lets get the facts here straight.

Do I believe he is wrong about the holocaust? Absolutely.
Do I believe people should be allowed to discuss the holocaust and even doubt the facts about it openly? Absolutely.

This thread isn't about that though.........

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Really?

Well, that's the way I remember it. But even if he was there, it doesn't change the fact that the conference seemed to have been a pretty boring event for the participants. I was more surprised that some orthodox rabbis attended this pseudo-scientific conference.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Well, that's the way I remember it. But even if he was there, it doesn't change the fact that the conference seemed to have been a pretty boring event for the participants. I was more surprised that some orthodox rabbis attended this pseudo-scientific conference.

Agreed. Although I hoped more serious researchers (from both sides) would have attended the conference. Seems like mostly those who doubt the holocaust took part.

How does it work in those countries were doubting (parts of) the holocaust is forbidden. Can a (say German) citizen be charged for any comments about the holocaust that he makes outside of Germany?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I was also baffled to hear that some orthodox Jews were participating as well. At first, I thought they want to `fight back', but then I got confused …

I don't think they are subscribers to 'Holocaust denial' but object to it's invocation as a justification for Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. For which they have a point, why do the Palestinians have to suffer for the actions of the Nazis?

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Although I hoped more serious researchers (from both sides) would have attended the conference.

Yeah right. A "serious" conference on the Holocaust led by the president of Iran.

There have been and continue to be historical conferences on WWII and Hitler and the Holocaust. Just not in Iran, led by Ahmadinejad.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Yeah right. A "serious" conference on the Holocaust led by the president of Iran.

There have been and continue to be historical conferences on WWII and Hitler and the Holocaust. Just not in Iran, led by Ahmadinejad.

1. This conference wasn't led by Ahmadinejad.
2. What does holding it in Iran have to do with anything?
3. Could you point me to when and where those conferences were held?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Really? I thought he said the following.

No, he couldn't have said that. The USSR wasn't wiped of the map through violence or genocide. It's concept was simply no longer able to exist in the modern context.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Agreed. Although I hoped more serious researchers (from both sides) would have attended the conference. Seems like mostly those who doubt the holocaust took part.

That's why it was boring. They have no scientific standing. The holocaust is not just one of the most gruesome genocides, but also the best-documented one.

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

How does it work in those countries were doubting (parts of) the holocaust is forbidden. Can a (say German) citizen be charged for any comments about the holocaust that he makes outside of Germany?

I'm not sure. But some of them aren't even allowed to touch German soil anymore because of that.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

1. This conference wasn't led by Ahmadinejad.

It sure was. It was initiated by him and he gave its "keynote" speech.

2. What does holding it in Iran have to do with anything?

Yeah what could it possibly matter that the "conference" was initiated by a political figure who calls for the end of the state of Israel and himself adheres to the equivalent of a flat-earth belief?

3. Could you point me to when and where those conferences were held?

Look them up yourself. Here's one list of history conferences. I see a few devoted solely to WWII or to genocides in recent history. There are also journals of history and societies devoted to such things. I'm sure they don't have any called "Did the holocaust really happen?" if that's what you're looking for. I doubt geologists have conferences on whether rocks exist either.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

That's why it was boring. They have no scientific standing. The holocaust is not just one of the most gruesome genocides, but also the best-documented one.

Agreed.

I'm not sure. But some of them aren't even allowed to touch German soil anymore because of that.

Do you know in which countries it is banned to doubt (parts of) the holocaust? And could that explain why some of the more serious researchers didn't take part (besides the obvious reason)?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

It sure was. It was initiated by him and he gave its "keynote" speech.

We've had several conferences here on Iceland that are both initiated by our president as well as him giving the keynote speech. None of them have been led by him. It's actually quite common for smaller nations, as well as those that don't have a fully developed scientific "protocol", that the president initiates and "supports" the conferences.

I'm not denying this was a publicity stunt but him being the symbolical "leader" of the conference does not mean that he actually led anything.

Yeah what could it possibly matter that the "conference" was initiated by a political figure who calls for the end of the state of Israel and himself adheres to the equivalent of a flat-earth belief?

See my post above. Iran has very good scientists in all disciplines. Saying a conference held there is any worse than it being held elsewhere is IMO a bit ignorant.

Do you think a conference on this should rather have been held in Germany or France? Both places that make it illegal to doubt any parts of the Holocaust.

Look them up yourself. Here's one list of history conferences. I see a few devoted solely to WWII or to genocides in recent history. There are also journals of history and societies devoted to such things. I'm sure they don't have any called "Did the holocaust really happen?" if that's what you're looking for. I doubt geologists have conferences on whether rocks exist either.

Thanks for that list. I don't have time to check those on that list at the moment to find if there are any specific conferences on the Holocaust but I'll take your word for it.

But this conference wasn't about "Did the holocaust really happen?". It was called "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust" and Ahmadinejad said the following in his opening remarks:

"[The conference] seeks neither to deny nor prove the Holocaust. It is just to provide an appropriate scientific atmosphere for scholars to offer their opinions in freedom about a historical issue.""

This was a chance for respected scientists to use a high profile conference to share their views on the holocaust. IMO it's a shame that they didn't take that chance and by doing that silence the likes of David Duke and co.

[Macrobat]

Oh yeah, it was a serious, "scientific" conference.

Hot Air � Blog Archive � Arab Holocaust expert barred from Iran conference

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

But this conference wasn't about "Did the holocaust really happen?". It was called "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust" and Ahmadinejad said the following in his opening remarks:

"[The conference] seeks neither to deny nor prove the Holocaust. It is just to provide an appropriate scientific atmosphere for scholars to offer their opinions in freedom about a historical issue.""

This was a chance for respected scientists to use a high profile conference to share their views on the holocaust. IMO it's a shame that they didn't take that chance and by doing that silence the likes of David Duke and co.

"Respected scientists" wouldn't attend this conference because it would bring them into dis-repute. And the fact that David Duke was even allowed to attend--most "respected" academic conferences hold peer reviews of a speaker's plannd topic before the speakers are invited/allowed to attend--indicates how not serious this conference is.

Note, I am NOT advocating censorship but academics holding a conference on a specific subject usually pre-certify those accepted to speak as being experts in their field and appropriate presenters on the topic under discussion. (So you don't get David Duke, or myself, taliking about the historical significance of the Holocaust when neither of us are academic experts in that subject-matter area. That's like inviting Stephen Hawking to speak at an academic conference on early medieval choral music; Although brilliant in his own academic field he is out of his league in such an environment.) Did any of this vetting happen for the "Global Vision of the Holocaust" conference? Was everyone invited to attend an expert in the history of WWII or the Holocaust?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

This was a chance for respected scientists to use a high profile conference to share their views on the holocaust. IMO it's a shame that they didn't take that chance and by doing that silence the likes of David Duke and co.

Next up: Tom Cruise offers a chance for respected psychiatrists to use a high profile conference to share their views on medications.

Then, Kent Hovind offers a chance for respected biologists to use a high profile conference to share their views on evolution.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Good lord...wouldn't it be nice if the U.S. had the political will, diplomatic ties, military resources available to try to deal with this whack-job's country?

Sadly, our lame duck in chief squandered it all...(sigh)

Oh, sod off.

If the US had attacked Iran, you'd be among the first whining about it, and pretending that Ahmadinejad was just a harmless, misunderstood sap being bullied by the big, bad US. You'd be screaming and whining at Bush, and claiming attacking Iran was "illegal" and (the capper) WHY, OH WHY didn't we instead attack that bastard Saddam Hussein because he just declared...

I'm sick of this bullshit false goalpost game.

No matter WHO the US attacked, and for what reason, the useful idiot crowd would GUARANTEED be whining about it, and mounting the bullshit that we should have attacked someone else.

Notice also, that no one else will ever step up and deal with Ahmadinejad, nor any other dictator crackpot.

The people that have squandered any nation's ability to take down future ruthless regimes BEFORE they kill tens of millions of people and set half the world on fire, are all the useful idiot nitwits that have now made it virtually impossible to do so, for the sake of petty political whining.

If anyone dares stop a dictator BEFORE he actually commits a holocaust, the deniers will simply whine (in FAVOR of the dictator) that it never would have happend anyway, and sling endless slime at those who sought to stop him. Leftwing kooks can just end the idiotic pretense that they wouldn't do the same favor for Ahmadinejad the very second boots EVER hit the ground to take him out. Don't even waste a breath with the sheer lie that you wouldn't.

The dictators of the world know and now count on this full well, and because of it, this century will bring with it an entire slew of new horrors that make those of Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Pol Pot, etc. look like the work of amateurs.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

"Respected scientists" wouldn't attend this conference because it would bring them into dis-repute. And the fact that David Duke was even allowed to attend--most "respected" academic conferences hold peer reviews of a speaker's plannd topic before the speakers are invited/allowed to attend--indicates how not serious this conference is.

I agree that this conference wasn't the best "scientific" conference ever held. I also know that this was a publicity stunt by the Iranian government (pointing out the limits of free speech in our own countries). But IMO the experts on this topic should have gone there because that was probably the most high profile conference on the topic there will ever be. Any semi-intelligent researcher could tear apart David Duke's and co's arguments. That is needed because if no one ever confronts them they will always be able to spread their lies (that the holocaust didn't happen).

Note, I am NOT advocating censorship but academics holding a conference on a specific subject usually pre-certify those accepted to speak as being experts in their field and appropriate presenters on the topic under discussion. (So you don't get David Duke, or myself, taliking about the historical significance of the Holocaust when neither of us are academic experts in that subject-matter area. That's like inviting Stephen Hawking to speak at an academic conference on early medieval choral music; Although brilliant in his own academic field he is out of his league in such an environment.) Did any of this vetting happen for the "Global Vision of the Holocaust" conference? Was everyone invited to attend an expert in the history of WWII or the Holocaust?

I'm not sure who was invited. IIRC everyone was allowed to take part if they had something to say on the topic. Even if they weren't the most respected in the field.

Like I've been saying, I think this was a glorious opportunity to put things right. Not just for the experts in this field but also for the laymen.

Could this conference have been better? Of course.
Could this conference (or anything like it) been held in countries like Germany and France? Unfortunately not.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika 

People keep getting Iran and Saudi Arabia confused...I think that's because Saudi Arabia are your "friends"...

I am not the one confused here. I was referring to a case that happened before 9/11. The year 1979 ring a bell?

And just because some of the hijackers were from Saudi, doesn't mean Saudi has anything to do with it. Remember at the time Osama wasn't happy with Saudi.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten 

I don't think they are subscribers to 'Holocaust denial' but object to it's invocation as a justification for Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. For which they have a point, why do the Palestinians have to suffer for the actions of the Nazis?

Oh puhlease. They are only suffering because that is the path THEY chose for themselves.

The idea that the Israeli people are oppressing the Palestinians is nothing short of delusional.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Oh, sod off.

If the US had attacked Iran, you'd be among the first whining about it, and pretending that Ahmadinejad was just a harmless, misunderstood sap being bullied by the big, bad US. You'd be screaming and whining at Bush, and claiming attacking Iran was "illegal" and (the capper) WHY, OH WHY didn't we instead attack that bastard Saddam Hussein because he just declared...

I'm sick of this bullshit false goalpost game.

No matter WHO the US attacked, and for what reason, the useful idiot crowd would GUARANTEED be whining about it, and mounting the bullshit that we should have attacked someone else.

I said the same thing above. And yes, it's that obvious.

[Macrobat]

Sayf Allah, which "our countries" would you be talking about?

The US has no restrictions on any discussion of this, or ANY other subject.

Your automatic defense of this tinpot dictatorship wears thin.

Shouldn't you be making that airline reservation on an American carrier to Mecca, so you can file a "FWM" grievance?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

Sayf Allah, which "our countries" would you be talking about?

The US has no restrictions on any discussion of this, or ANY other subject.

Our countries would be European countries.

Countries like Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Rumania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I don't think Iran would touch Israel. First, there are too many Palestinians in Israel to actually nuke it.

This just in... Iran couldn't give a rat's a$$ about Palestinians.

But of course the gossiping school girls of the right will be all over this one. Honestly, Iran needs to be dealt with over the Iraq situation, but we shouldn't bother entertaining Ahmadinejad on this. If Ahmadinejad wants to tear his credibility to pieces in the international community, fine. But it's no reason for our country to get it's panties in a wad.

I don't think anyone from the right or from the left has their panties in a wad over anti-Semitic statements made by Ahmadinejad, least of which the international community. I think everyone has pretty much come to expect this rhetoric. BTW, since when has anti-Semitism dashed anyone's credibility in the international community?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I don't think anyone from the right or from the left has their panties in a wad over anti-Semitic statements made by Ahmadinejad, least of which the international community. I think everyone has pretty much come to expect this rhetoric. BTW, since when has anti-Semitism dashed anyone's credibility in the international community?