[macintologist]

Murder is casually defined as the intentional killing of an innocent person. However I think if you get involved in the "game", ie. the mafia, that the normal code of ethics that guide normal people wouldn't apply to you. Doesn't it seem like that if someone gets killed or "murdered" while they are in the game, that they had it coming the whole time?

It is taboo for a gangster to kill a "citizen", somebody not involved in the game. But the killing of one gangster by another seems perfectly acceptable and natural to me. The justice system shouldn't be pursuing gang-related killings if they can determine said killings were gang-related.

[Powerbook]

Yeah, rrright...
Next stop: Japanese Yakuza parallel society.

PB.

[TETENAL]

Monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Sealobo]

Murder is de facto a person intentionally killing another person outside a standard warfare. There is no such thing as "innocent victim".

[peeb]

Of course it's murder. Next.

[Dakarʒ]

So you think someone getting whacked for not paying protection money is ok?

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

So you think someone getting whacked for not paying protection money is ok?

No I'm talking about people that voluntarily got themselves involved in the game.

For example, a drug dealers borrows about $250,000 worth of drugs, expecting to sell it all and then pay back a cut of that to the original lender.

Said drug dealers fails to pay back, probably due to embezzlement. Said drug dealer gets beat up or killed.

Comon he had it coming. You play or get played.

[Dakarʒ]

And if he fails to pay due to poor crack sales, did he still have it coming?

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

And if he fails to pay due to poor crack sales, did he still have it coming?

What I want you to admit is that the moral code that gangsters follow a different code than ordinary people and a justice system should reflect that by letting gang wars run their course so long as citizens or "taxpayers" aren't affected.

[Dakarʒ]

So is that a 'no'?

[Sealobo]

if the killing made the news, then the general public is affected. HA!

[Doofy]

If it's an occupational hazard, shouldn't someone be had for corporate manslaughter and/or possible breach of health and safety law since they didn't issue everyone with hi-viz workwear?

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Murder is casually defined as the intentional killing of an innocent person.

No murder is defined as the illegal killing of another person. Since it's not legal for people to take the law in their own hands, it's murder.

[Atomic Rooster]

Thou shalt not kill.

You will be burnt to a krispy kritter and be tortured and disembowelled and forced to make love to your great-grandmother forever and ever in HELL!

But other than that it ain't so bad.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

What I want you to admit is that the moral code that gangsters follow a different code than ordinary people and a justice system should reflect that by letting gang wars run their course so long as citizens or "taxpayers" aren't affected.

That's assuming that there are a number of different moral codes. Can the moral codes you refer to really be defined by groups of people? Some might seem to be, but some things are just universally considered wrong.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Thou shalt not kill.

You will be burnt to a krispy kritter and be tortured and disembowelled and forced to make love to your great-grandmother forever and ever in HELL!

But other than that it ain't so bad.

Don't forget the other nine:

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

You shall not covet

And the best verses of all:

Originally Posted by Romans 10:9-13

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; or "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

What I want you to admit is that the moral code that gangsters follow a different code than ordinary people and a justice system should reflect that by letting gang wars run their course so long as citizens or "taxpayers" aren't affected.

Are you saying that mafia actions only affects mafia members?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Murder is casually defined as the intentional killing of an innocent person. ...

Where do you come up with this crap?

Murder is the illegal killing of one human being by another.

[- - e r i k - -]

Hello teen philosophy. Fire up that bong!

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Hello teen philosophy. Fire up that bong!

But it makes so much sense, man. I mean, potheads have a different set of moral codes, right? So they shouldn't be stopped from smoking pot, right?

[- - e r i k - -]

No one should be stopped from smoking pot. To each their own.

[Laminar]

I'm just saying that by his logic everyone could declare that what they do is based on their own moral codes so they shouldn't be arrested.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'm just saying that by his logic everyone could declare that what they do is based on their own moral codes so they shouldn't be arrested.

EXACTLY!

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Where do you come up with this crap?

Murder is the illegal killing of one human being by another.

The Holocaust was legal so that doesn't make it murder then?

My definition is the best because it takes into account self defense and other mitigating circumstances. When you get involved in gang activity, you do so knowing the risks involved, especially to your own life. When you get killed by a rival gang in a turf war, should it be a big surprise? Should law enforcement waste their time trying to find out who did it when they should be spending more time protecting taxpayers?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Don't forget the other nine:

And the best verses of all:

Also

What does the Bible say about war?

Question: "What does the Bible say about war?"

Answer: Many people make the mistake of believing the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” and seek to apply this command to war. However, the Bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil.

Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Murder is casually defined as the intentional killing of an innocent person. .

No it isn't its defined as " the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"

The other mafia person while not innocent is no less a human being then you or I and to be honest we are not innocent either. Just because we don't pull a trigger means we're sinless.

Bottom line is murder is wrong regardless if the victim led an upright life or one who was steeped in organized crime himself.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Hello teen philosophy. Fire up that bong!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

No it isn't its defined as " the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"

I guess it depends on what laws you are following. I can think of certain actions I would call murder that are allowed by law that I myself consider unlawful.

[osiris]

There is no such thing as the "Mafia"

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by osiris 

There is no such thing as the "Mafia"

Puts finger next to eye...

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I guess it depends on what laws you are following. I can think of certain actions I would call murder that are allowed by law that I myself consider unlawful.

Good for you, I was rebutting the OP's assumption that some how that the lack of a person's innocence means it is not murder. His definition of murder was lacking. I took the webster definition and pasted it there.

Clearly religious beliefs can add to and strengthen the definition. Take the sermon on the mount for example, it adds not only actual outward actions as sinful but the internal desire to commit that action as being sinful and it being on the same level as doing the action in the eyes of the Lord

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Good for you...

I wasn't really disagreeing with you...

I was just adding also that just because a gov deems certain murderous acts lawful, doesn't suddenly not make them murder.

[MacosNerd]

I know, I was just stating that I was rebutting the OP.

I probably could have reworded it, after re-reading I did sound a little harsh

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

The Holocaust was legal so that doesn't make it murder then?

No, the holocaust was NOT LEGAL.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

No, the holocaust was NOT LEGAL.

Bit iffy though, wasn't it? I mean, they had to create a court then try the defendants on crimes which they dreamt up whilst they were going along.

I mean, tried for war crimes but:

The definition of what constitutes a war crime is described by the Nuremberg Principles, a document which was created as a result of the trial

I'm (of course) not saying that the Holocaust wasn't morally wrong and that the perps shouldn't have been punished, but it seems that from a legal perspective the whole trial was arse about face.

[Eriamjh]

There is no mafia.