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kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 02:14 AM

damn, once you're getting used to something, they decide to change it back...

seems as if they changed the window layering behaviour. at least in the finder (so my guess is programmers have to implement it - anybody care to chime in?).

open two finder windows.
now switch to chimera

.
now bring one and only one finder window to front, so it's finder-chimera-finder.
close the topmost finder window.

you'll still be in the finder, but the second window won't come to front.
on previous systems, the second window *would* come to front.

dunno if that's better.
damn, i liked the way it was...

and now one app does it this way another one does it that way...

could somebody check if that ain't just me? hope i didn't mess up my system or such.

wataru · Nov 12, 2002, 02:17 AM

That's how it's always been in OS X.

kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by wataru:
That's how it's always been in OS X.

what????
it always has been that way:

front: "finder 1"
middle: "chimera 1"
back: "finder 2"

when in finder
close "finder 1"
bring "finder 2" to front

with 10.2.2 they don't do this anymore. instead, they keep the chimera window on top of the 2nd finder window...

someone_else · Nov 12, 2002, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by kzmk:

what????
it always has been that way:

front: "finder 1"
middle: "chimera 1"
back: "finder 2"

when in finder
close "finder 1"
bring "finder 2" to front

with 10.2.2 they don't do this anymore. instead, they keep the chimera window on top of the 2nd finder window...

Yes, OS X has always worked that way. It's part of the new "Document" approach instead of Mac OS 9's "Application" approach of managing windows.

BTW, I just verified this exact behavior on 10.2.1 and 10.1.4.

kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by someone_else:

Yes, OS X has always worked that way. It's part of the new "Document" approach instead of Mac OS 9's "Application" approach of managing windows.

BTW, I just verified this exact behavior on 10.2.1 and 10.1.4.

what did you verify?

so, you're telling me windowhandling and -layering in the finder is different from any other app?

and that it always has been that way?

kennethmac2000 · Nov 12, 2002, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by kzmk:
so, you're telling me windowhandling and -layering in the finder is different from any other app?

No. In the situation you describe, the focus goes to the Desktop, which is just a title bar-less window.

dfiler · Nov 12, 2002, 09:54 AM

I like the document-centric window management that OS X uses. As far as I can recall, its remained unchanged since the public beta days. There has been changes in the command-tab behavior though.

Now if only we could come up with a generalizable schema to handle app behavior during last-window-closing... Its something that I see people (novices) struggle with on a daily basis. Some users still don't understand the current model even after years of experience!

kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:

No. In the situation you describe, the focus goes to the Desktop, which is just a title bar-less window.

uh? but why? the desktop is the topleast (??? *lol*) window, isn't it?

i really can't recall that the finder behaved that way before. i would bet that it always brought the next window to the front...
i'll check this.

kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 11:11 AM

i just checked:

at least till 10.1.5 the window layering and behaviour of the finder when a window from another app is between two finder windows (z-axis, so to say) was as it is in every other app: you close the frontmost window and the remaining window comes to front, obscuring the other app's window.

In 10.2.2 the finder behaves different: the second window stays in the back.

if you don't believe me, check my posts, do as i said. i'm right, you're wrong.

Oneota · 11:31 AM

Originally posted by kzmk:
i just checked:

at least till 10.1.5 the window layering and behaviour of the finder when a window from another app is between two finder windows (z-axis, so to say) was as it is in every other app: you close the frontmost window and the remaining window comes to front, obscuring the other app's window.

In 10.2.2 the finder behaves different: the second window stays in the back.

if you don't believe me, check my posts, do as i said. i'm right, you're wrong.

[Edit: I just realized I had mis-read your posts, so this post isn't as relevant. Check the next one for a more accurate response to your situation.]

There are some 3rd-party apps that cause the OS to do this for you; ASM is one that comes to mind. Have you installed anything like that lately?

The default behavior of 10.2.2 is the SAME as 10.2.1, 10.1.5, etc. So there is, indeed, something different about your system. My guess is you've just installed some piece of software that causes the OS 9-ish window management scheme to be used instead of OS X's.

I personally like OS 9's window-management better, and wish there were a checkbox in the General preferences tab to switch between the two.

Oneota · Nov 12, 2002, 11:29 AM

Hmm..just re-read your post. Sounds to me like you had been seeing the OS 9 window management, and now have suddenly started seeing the OS X way.

In that case, 10.2.2 may have broken the functionality of some pre-existing 3rd party software.

But what you're seeing now is how it has always been, from Apple, out-of-the-box, with Mac OS X. Nothing has changed, except on your box.

kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Oneota:
Hmm..just re-read your post. Sounds to me like you had been seeing the OS 9 window management, and now have suddenly started seeing the OS X way.

In that case, 10.2.2 may have broken the functionality of some pre-existing 3rd party software.

But what you're seeing now is how it has always been, from Apple, out-of-the-box, with Mac OS X. Nothing has changed, except on your box.

i feel so dumb right now...

am i using bad grammar? really, no offense, i'd like to know - english is not my mother tongue, so maybe i'm saying A while meaning B, dunno.
see, i�m fully aware of how os x handles windows, and how they are layered and stuff. and no, i'm NOT using any 3rd party app to mimic os 9, because i LOVE the way os x has handled windows since day one. document centric. well...

bottom line:
the finder behaves different than other apps when *closing* windows.
can we agree on that and leave the "since when" part out for the moment?

cwasko · Nov 12, 2002, 11:41 AM

Ah, Ya, I see what you are talking about. most of the time when the app that the window is closed from, ALL the windows come to front. However, the Finder is not doing this, windows in the back, remain in the back. I'm not sure if it has always doen this, but I like this behavior more than bringing all the windows to front.

absmiths · Nov 12, 2002, 11:47 AM

I actually don't like that windows come popping out of nowhere just because I close the frontmost window. In your scenario, I probably placed the bbedit window in front of the finder window because that is what I was interested in - but then I placed a different finder window in front temporarily, and when I close that the other one pops to the front and I have to fix my z-order again. If I wanted to see all finder windows I could just click on the dock icon.

Another thing that chaps me is when programs like BBEdit pop up a new document just because I clicked on them and they didn't have any windows visible.

kzmk · Nov 12, 2002, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by cwasko:
Ah, Ya, I see what you are talking about. most of the time when the app that the window is closed from, ALL the windows come to front.

all windows?

just the "next in line"...
at least on my system.

However, the Finder is not doing this, windows in the back, remain in the back. I'm not sure if it has always doen this, but I like this behavior more than bringing all the windows to front.

yeah, all windows would suck.

but it was nice to be able to close a couple of windows in a row that way, without having to fully switch to the finder (or any other app that is).

neilw · Nov 12, 2002, 06:31 PM

I just checked under 10.2. With windows in the order Finder-Chimera-Finder, closing the topmost Finder window leaves the Chimera window up front, Finder in the back.

So, my system at least matches your experience with 10.2.2. I don't remember it ever working any other way, to be honest.

clebin · Nov 12, 2002, 07:22 PM

No sign of that 'single window mode' that Jobs said was going to take the complexity and frustration out of modern living, then?

Chris

brainchild2b · Nov 12, 2002, 07:47 PM

Uhh if you don't like it that way SIMPLY click on the FINDER ICON IN THE DOCK, and it brings all the finder stuff to the front. Problem solved.

ryju · Nov 12, 2002, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
Uhh if you don't like it that way SIMPLY click on the FINDER ICON IN THE DOCK, and it brings all the finder stuff to the front. Problem solved.

lOl, nicely done, I agree

Xeo · Nov 12, 2002, 07:55 PM

OK, some of you don't seem to see what the original poster is saying. So, I'm back with movies again because sometimes seeing is the only way to get it.

Finder window layering [584KB]
Chimera window layering (with Finder window)[984KB]
Chimera window layering (with Mail window) [828KB]

Both examples of Chimera windowing are the same except the window from the other app in the first example is a Finder window and the other is a window from Mail. In other words, it didn't matter if the other app was Cocoa or Carbon.

I can't confirm that there was a difference in 10.2.1 (or even 10.1) but there is a difference right now between the Finder and other apps. BBEdit, for example, acts just like Chimera. So does TextEdit. And IE, and PhotoShop. The Finder is the only oddball. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a new behavior, but as I said, I don't have any pre-10.2.2 installs to try it on.

So, he isn't talking about the way OS 9 handled it. He's talking about the way the Finder is different from every other app.

derbs · Nov 12, 2002, 07:56 PM

that's the problem, i liked the way OS9 handled, click on the desktop and all your finder windows come to the front. Now i have to click on a tiny 32x32 icon to achieve the same? Telling me that's a step forward?

Anyway i installed X-Assist. But that document-centric system is confusing and un-intuitive. But that's OSX i guess...

kzmk · Nov 13, 2002, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Xeo:
OK, some of you don't seem to see what the original poster is saying. So, I'm back with movies again because sometimes seeing is the only way to get it.

Finder window layering [584KB]
Chimera window layering (with Finder window)[984KB]
Chimera window layering (with Mail window) [828KB]

Both examples of Chimera windowing are the same except the window from the other app in the first example is a Finder window and the other is a window from Mail. In other words, it didn't matter if the other app was Cocoa or Carbon.

I can't confirm that there was a difference in 10.2.1 (or even 10.1) but there is a difference right now between the Finder and other apps. BBEdit, for example, acts just like Chimera. So does TextEdit. And IE, and PhotoShop. The Finder is the only oddball. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a new behavior, but as I said, I don't have any pre-10.2.2 installs to try it on.

So, he isn't talking about the way OS 9 handled it. He's talking about the way the Finder is different from every other app.

thanx a bunch, man.

i already thought i was... like... bleepbleepbleep... and then... bummer.

somebody mentioned that this is due to the *desktop* getting focus (e.g. "being brought to front"). this is true (you can navigate the desktop with the keyboard after you close the topmost window), but it still seems strange to me, because it's

a) different from other apps
b) different from when the finder has "full focus" (when you click on the finder's dock icon)

talk about modes...

neilw · Nov 13, 2002, 02:24 PM

In any event, it seems to be the same as it was (at least in 10.2 which I'm running now.) I understood what you were saying about how the Finder behaves, but didn't realize that other apps behave differently.

I'm not sure which I like better, but I agree they ought to be the same!

Phoenix1701 · Nov 13, 2002, 02:42 PM

My two cents...

I suspect the fact that the desktop becomes active instead of the next-frontmost window is a bug in the Finder. In fact, in my opinion, if something is inconsistent in an interface for no good reason, it automatically gets defined as a bug.

If what we're really talking about here, though, is whether the old application-centric model or the new document-centric model is better, well... there are advantages and disadvantages to both. I personally use ASM to get back the application-centric model, because I'm more used to it and I don't like having to mouse all the way over to the Dock to get all my windows to appear (it wouldn't irk me so much if there was a keyboard shortcut, but alas, there isn't). YMMV.

brainchild2b · Nov 13, 2002, 02:46 PM

It's only confusing and strange if you had to use the crappy document interface in os 9. Almost every modern OS uses the same model as OSX has. It's excellent that way as you can bring just part of something to the front. There are many reason for this but I don't have time to go into all them. Search google for document window modelling and some interesting reads can be found.

neilw · Nov 13, 2002, 04:09 PM

In fact, in my opinion, if something is inconsistent in an interface for no good reason, it automatically gets defined as a bug.

And if something is defined as a bug, it's probably in the Finder.

brink · Nov 13, 2002, 05:04 PM

I'm pretty sure this bug is new in 10.2, because that's when I first started noticing it -- and if it had been there before, I think I would have noticed it because it's irritating. Not half as irritating as some of the other Finder bugs that debuted in Jaguar, though.

absmiths · Nov 13, 2002, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Xeo:
OK, some of you don't seem to see what the original poster is saying. So, I'm back with movies again because sometimes seeing is the only way to get it.

Finder window layering [584KB]
Chimera window layering (with Finder window)[984KB]
Chimera window layering (with Mail window) [828KB]

Both examples of Chimera windowing are the same except the window from the other app in the first example is a Finder window and the other is a window from Mail. In other words, it didn't matter if the other app was Cocoa or Carbon.

I can't confirm that there was a difference in 10.2.1 (or even 10.1) but there is a difference right now between the Finder and other apps. BBEdit, for example, acts just like Chimera. So does TextEdit. And IE, and PhotoShop. The Finder is the only oddball. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a new behavior, but as I said, I don't have any pre-10.2.2 installs to try it on.

So, he isn't talking about the way OS 9 handled it. He's talking about the way the Finder is different from every other app.

I didn't notice any difference between Chimera-Finder and Chimera-Mail - in both cases the next Chimera window popped in front. I personally prefer the way that the Finder-Chimera worked, if only the OS would have activated the Chimera window after the Finder window is closed. I think the OS should consider the Z-Order as being more important in this case than the current app.

Dale Sorel · Nov 13, 2002, 06:10 PM

You guys are all high

The finder and windows belonging to other apps have acted like this since 10.1.5

brink · Nov 13, 2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Dale Sorel:
You guys are all high

That's another possibility, lol. I was sure this was new in Jaguar, but now that I think about it it's entirely possible that I just didn't notice it till then because the Jag Finder had so many improvements that it changed some of my work habits.

Would anyone be interested in a little freeware application that forces all your Finder windows to the front when you click on the desktop? I wrote one a while ago but never released it.

foobars · Nov 13, 2002, 07:41 PM

I know for a fact the Finder has always worked this way because it has pissed me off for ages.

kzmk · Nov 14, 2002, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
It's only confusing and strange if you had to use the crappy document interface in os 9. Almost every modern OS uses the same model as OSX has. It's excellent that way as you can bring just part of something to the front. There are many reason for this but I don't have time to go into all them. Search google for document window modelling and some interesting reads can be found.

lol - you still don't get it.