[marden]

A Good Friend or Relative Regulary & Carelessly Risks Death. Intervene or No?

A former lady friend COULD NOT drive and keep her eyes on the road if she was talking to someone in the passenger seat. She was compelled to look at me when I was riding in her car and I asked if she was that way with anyone or everyone she drove with. She said she was. I told her, as tactfully as I could, that her regular habit of looking at people (while talking with them) for VERY long moments while hurtling along public thoroughfares was a death defying practice. She said that's the way she had driven all her life.

I began insisting we take my car when we went places but she soon came to resent the insinuation. And I knew she drove that way with her teen aged daughter in the car so there was always going to be someone in the jump seat to distract her attention from driving.

I don't recall if she said her driving record was clean or not. I tend to think it probably was clean because I think I'd remember if there had been a number of accidents in her past.

But it soon became a real sore point in our relationship. I began to think of her as negligent and ignorant and anything she did or said was always colored in my mind by how she could risk people's lives that way.

We soon broke up and she knew exactly why.

I was not going to sit idly by and pretend there was nothing wrong while the clock ticked down until an accident occurred as a result of her failure to keep her eyes on the road AT LEAST 90% of the time.

Are any of your friends or relatives doing anything that is downright scary? And do you step in and say something? Do you nag, nag, nag and stage an intervention of sorts? Do you let them know how you feel and then mind your own business? Or do you step back and let them "walk their path?'

[Big Mac]

Gosh marden, how old was she? Sorry.

I don't think I have any stories nearly as disturbing as that, but the correct thing to do in any case of that nature is to intervene.

[design219]

I think you did the right thing by letting her "walk their path." You tried, and it didn't work. Don't feel bad.

This is Darwinian evolution trying to work. You have a will and ability to survive that she is missing.

Hmmm, Marden as an example of evolution of the species. Interesting.

[SSharon]

I destroyed a relationship with a friend at school by intervening in a personal matter that I felt obligated to do. As much as a hate losing her as a friend, she now ignores me whenever possible, I knew that I couldn't chance saying nothing and then having the potentially negative consequences on my conscience.

It sucks big time and I am reminded of it every day, and knowing that I would do it again doesn't make it that much easier to stomach.

[bstone]

I regularly drive through red lights, weave through traffic, drive in the wrong lane- all in a vehicle where I have major blind spots, that is prone to rollovers.

I'm an EMT and work on an ambulance.

[FireWire]

I don't think what she's doing is that bad. I mean, it's obviously dangerous and unsafe to look away from the road while driving, but personally, if the driver is not looking at the road while I'm there, by reflex I certainly look for two, so should anything happen, the passenger is able to advise the driver.

It would be a different story if she looked away from the road alone!

[iranfromthezoo]

I run into burning buildings, drive a big red truck that like bstone, is prone to roll-overs, doesn't stop on a dime, drives in the wrong lane, all while trying to put on gear and talk on the radio.

I drive a fire truck, show up at the wrong house and break the door down when no one comes....dedication.

[iranfromthezoo]

bstone are you EMT-B or EMT-P?

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

bstone are you EMT-B or EMT-P?

I'm sure he will be back to correct me but I think he is an EMT-I.

I am a lowly EMT-B, but I know some states still have the intermediate level.

[invisibleX]

Isn't it more about you than them? I love my family and friends and I don't fool myself; the thought of losing them hurts me not them. If they take risks that I think are undue thats their life. I can suggest they not do them. I will not do anything to risk my relationship with them over it though.

If they choose to risk their life, well, I'll stand by them. What kind of friend would I be if I only stood by people as long as I approved of them?

[centerchannel68]

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by invisibleX 

What kind of friend would I be if I only stood by people as long as I approved of them?

Honest?

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Honest?

I'm sorry.. whatever your point is I just don't get it. Or the jesus-fish for that matter..

For what its worth: I'm not religious so you can stop being an ass. Assuming of course you are being an ass. The fish and stick (jesus fish-sticks? hmm) might be perfectly innocent.

[analogika]

He basically just repeated the point about evolution running its course and weeding out the unfit ones.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Gosh marden, how old was she? Sorry.

I don't think I have any stories nearly as disturbing as that, but the correct thing to do in any case of that nature is to intervene.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. She did not die (not to my knowledge, knock on wood) or have an accident but in my opinion it was only a matter of time and I couldn't just stand by and watch/allow it to happen.

I once knew a tremendously talented and engaging guy who was also a stereotypically fun loving irresponsible and sloppy alcoholic drunk. And despite any of my or others' efforts to help him he was unprepared to exert the effort that HE needed to exert to climb out of the hell I saw him in. He must have liked it on some level. My idea of hell wasn't HIS idea of hell. And to me it looked suicidal and after awhile you just can't continue to enable an alcoholic. They HAVE to want it themselves or it won't work.

He was headed 'out' in my estimation.

If he was going to kill himself I had to prepare myself for him to walk HIS path.

He was alive when my job moved me out of town. We haven't kept in touch.

We were sometimes buddies but that wasn't enough for me to stand by him while he committed 'suicide.'

Maybe that's why I love "Leaving Las Vegas." Elizabeth Shue was willing to be that person for Nic Cage after knowing each other for one night.

She was willing to witness his self execution.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by bstone 

I regularly drive through red lights, weave through traffic, drive in the wrong lane- all in a vehicle where I have major blind spots, that is prone to rollovers.

I'm an EMT and work on an ambulance.

Originally Posted by SSharon 

I am a lowly EMT-B, but I know some states still have the intermediate level.

I have tons and tons of respect for both of you and for first responders of all types. If we lived in something closer to a meritocracy, you guys would be the stars making millions every year.

for multiquote, btw.

[bstone]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

bstone are you EMT-B or EMT-P?

Trained as an EMT-I, so says the shiny certificate framed on the wall in my bedroom. Sadly, I operate as a Basic. Growl. I have had a fair bit of ALS experience, tho.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by bstone 

Trained as an EMT-I, so says the shiny certificate framed on the wall in my bedroom. Sadly, I operate as a Basic. Growl. I have had a fair bit of ALS experience, tho.

You're required to operate at a lower level despite your proficiency?

[bstone]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

I run into burning buildings, drive a big red truck that like bstone, is prone to roll-overs, doesn't stop on a dime, drives in the wrong lane, all while trying to put on gear and talk on the radio.

I drive a fire truck, show up at the wrong house and break the door down when no one comes....dedication.

The fire service guys really impress me. No way would I run into a burning building. Not gonna happen. I'l gladly wait outside for my patients.



That's me. More of them here:
ambo/karate pics

[bstone]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You're required to operate at a lower level despite your proficiency?

In short, yes. EMTs arent independent providers of medicine. We operate under the supervision of a physician and under his/her standing medical orders. Some docs feel that in pre-hospital settings we should be able to do more and sometimes do less. In my case, they let me do less. It's rather frustrating as I sometimes have patients where I know EXACTLY what they need to help with an immediate life-threatening crisis, but I can't help them as my ambulance doesn't even have those things which I am trained and certified to use...all because our medical director doesn't believe in the "Intermediate" level of EMT.

Then again, in some cases a paramedic from one state will move to another and find him/herself seriously downgraded in allowed skills and interventions.

EMS is a bit screwed up in the USA, at least in this area. There is no central authority, no one protocol and no one certification. It all depends on the doc who is your medical director.

[bstone]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I have tons and tons of respect for both of you and for first responders of all types. If we lived in something closer to a meritocracy, you guys would be the stars making millions every year.

for multiquote, btw.

I really, really appreciate you saying that. You have no idea how little we get paid and how seldom people thank us for the work we do. You're a kind soul to take time so offer such flattering words. Thank you. SSharon and I work/worked in the same system. G-d help me if I was trying to make a living off of it. I am in school, doing premed and going to become a nice Jewish doctor. The pay is absolutely dismal, with the stress and risk of injury sky high.

Sometimes I go home at night and think about the bad calls I have had. It keeps me up at night and is very sad. Sigh....

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by bstone 

I really, really appreciate you saying that. You have no idea how little we get paid and how seldom people thank us for the work we do. You're a kind soul to take time so offer such flattering words. Thank you. SSharon and I work/worked in the same system. G-d help me if I was trying to make a living off of it. I am in school, doing premed and going to become a nice Jewish doctor. The pay is absolutely dismal, with the stress and risk of injury sky high.

Sometimes I go home at night and think about the bad calls I have had. It keeps me up at night and is very sad. Sigh....

I'm sorry you don't hear similar sentiment often, and I'm very sorry to hear that it's as undesireable a vocation as I imagined it is. Very sorry. I can understand why you don't get thanked on the job - the people you're helping are going through seriously traumatic situations and don't have time for such consideration - as I'm sure you know all too well. Your posts made me think about the best ways to thank local EMTs for their service.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm sorry you don't hear similar sentiment often, and I'm very sorry to hear that it's as undesireable a vocation as I imagined it is. Very sorry. I can understand why you don't get thanked on the job - the people you're helping are going through seriously traumatic situations and don't have time for such consideration - as I'm sure you know all too well. Your posts made me think about the best ways to thank local EMTs for their service.

+1

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by marden 

A former lady friend COULD NOT drive and keep her eyes on the road if she was talking to someone in the passenger seat. She was compelled to look at me when I was riding in her car and I asked if she was that way with anyone or everyone she drove with. She said she was. I told her, as tactfully as I could, that her regular habit of looking at people (while talking with them) for VERY long moments while hurtling along public thoroughfares was a death defying practice. She said that's the way she had driven all her life.

Firstly, I'd try and get her to change her ways.

If she didn't change then I'd have no choice but to report her to the appropriate authorities. Because, by doing what she's doing she's endangering all those on the same road as her - which could be my mom.

[Doofy]

Oh yeah, big props to bstone, SSharon and iranzoo too. You guys rock. We civvies might not always remember to say thanks to you guys for what you do, but be assured that we all appreciate you.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Firstly, I'd try and get her to change her ways.

If she didn't change then I'd have no choice but to report her to the appropriate authorities. Because, by doing what she's doing she's endangering all those on the same road as her - which could be my mom.

You illustrate right there a couple of reasons why I like your posts. They always make sense and they often show me where and how I could stand to move a bit further to the right.

I wouldn't have reported her without proof, but I certainly had enough empirical evidence to take the actions I did.

But, seriously, you make a good point. If I really felt that way (and yes I really, really did) by not reporting her I left a potential killer on the road and I took a long holiday.

Theres a killer on the road
His brain is squirmin like a toad
Take a long holiday
Let your children play
If ya give this man a ride
Sweet memory will die
Killer on the road, yeah

Riders on the Storm - The Doors

[tutelary]

Originally Posted by design219 

I think you did the right thing by letting her "walk their path." You tried, and it didn't work. Don't feel bad.

This is Darwinian evolution trying to work. You have a will and ability to survive that she is missing.

Hmmm, Marden as an example of evolution of the species. Interesting.

the problem is that she will kill an innocent person, not just herself.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by tutelary 

the problem is that she will kill an innocent person, not just herself.

Exactly. If she wants to put a literal or metaphorical gun to her head then my heart goes out to her, but if she's a danger on the road that's not just imperiling her life but many others. If you suspect she is a threat behind the wheel, you should definitely contact the DMV and police. If you take that responsibility, which is really part of your civic duty, then overworked and under-appreciated guys like bstone, iranfromthezoo and SSharon won't have to rush out to rescue lives due to her (potential) carnage.

[marden]

Originally Posted by tutelary 

the problem is that she will kill an innocent person, not just herself.

But that isn't the problem. There was no certainty that she would kill anyone. And that is my current problem. I was CONVINCED she was an accident just waiting to happen. But she had no accidents that would suggest she was a dangerous driver. And there was no proof I could take to the police. Just my assessment of her having a dangerous driving habit. I trust my own judgment in this matter and believe I was correct.

We had been seeing each other for a few months by that time and I liked her. Other than this we had no other problems. I wished nothing but the best for her. There was absolutely nothing that said she was going to KILL someone, or even have an accident. Just my assessment that someone keeping their eyes off the road for extended moments at a time would eventually run into something or someone. The worst case scenario COULD HAVE BEEN that she might have killed someone or some folks.

But without more than my belief how could I in good conscience snitch on her or take any action?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by marden 

But without more than my belief how could I in good conscience snitch on her?

Well, you have a strong moral compass. If the threat in your mind did not rise to the level where you thought "snitching" was proper, then you probably made the right decision.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Exactly. If she wants to put a literal or metaphorical gun to her head then my heart goes out to her, but if she's a danger on the road that's not just imperiling her life but many others. If you suspect she is a threat behind the wheel, you should definitely contact the DMV and police. If you take that responsibility, which is really part of your civic duty, then overworked and under-appreciated guys like bstone, iranfromthezoo and SSharon won't have to rush out to rescue lives due to her (potential) carnage.

Yeah, I can imagine calling the cops on her.

Texas Department of Public Safety (TDPS): "TDPS, is this an emergency call?"

marden: "Uh, well, no."

TDPS: "How may I direct your call?"

marden: "This is marden and my ex girlfriend from 10 years ago drove really dangerously and I was chatting with some people online at MacNN who convinced me that I had a duty to inform you. See, she has to look at the person she's talking to when she's driving and she keeps her eyes on that person a lot longer than would seem to be prudent and I was absolutely convinced it was just a matter of time before she had an accident resulting from this dangerous driving habit. So, I'm informing you now so you can do something and my conscience will be clear. Her name is Mary Smith and her address in Dallas is 12345 Main Street. Her phone # is 123-456-7890. Her license plate was 'IDRIVEGUD.' But that was 10 years ago. We haven't seen or spoken to each other since then. And we parted company on good terms except for the fact that I was absolutely convinced her driving would one day result in an accident and I couldn't get her to change. Ok, there it is. Now what are you going to do?"

TDPS: "Are you absolutely out of your mind, sir? Stop playing pranks on the phone! Did Doofy, tutelary and Big Mac put you up to this?"

marden: "Well, they did say I should..."

TDPS: "Tell them to stop their pranking and you go do something constructive and stay out of that damn MacNN. That place is as addictive as CRACK cocaine and almost as bad for you!"

marden: "Uh, sorry to bother you. Good bye."

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by marden 

But without more than my belief how could I in good conscience snitch on her or take any action?

If a car passed you going 100mph would you call the police then? For all you know their driving record is perfect as well.

Trust your judgment. If you are friends with a local cop consider setting her up to teach her a lesson. I hate to say it like that but having a cop pull her over on a local road (by her house so no need for risky lights/sirens) that without giving a ticket or anything just warns her to keep her eyes on the road might do the trick.

thanks for all the words of appreciation in the thread. bstone, who do you work for in boston, I have some contacts at Fallon Ambulance.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Well, you have a strong moral compass. If the threat in your mind did not rise to the level where you thought "snitching" was proper, then you probably made the right decision.

Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. And I stopped looking back at that decision long ago because I knew there was nothing more I could do about it.

I mention it here only to prompt others to share their stories.

[marden]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

If a car passed you going 100mph would you call the police then? For all you know their driving record is perfect as well.

Trust your judgment. If you are friends with a local cop consider setting her up to teach her a lesson. I hate to say it like that but having a cop pull her over on a local road (by her house so no need for risky lights/sirens) that without giving a ticket or anything just warns her to keep her eyes on the road might do the trick.

thanks for all the words of appreciation in the thread. bstone, who do you work for in boston, I have some contacts at Fallon Ambulance.

You make good points. The sneaky trick would have been funny to see play out. Good times.

By the way how different were the dynamics of my situation with my ex g/f than GWB's situation in trying to prevent a WMD attack on Israel? He had no solid proof, just a fear and a belief.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by marden 

You make good points. The sneaky trick would have been funny to see play out. Good times.

By the way how different were the dynamics of my situation with my ex g/f than GWB's situation in trying to prevent a WMD attack on Israel? He had no solid proof, just a fear and a belief.

I was about to write that we don't know what proof he did or did not have, but that might get this removed to the PL.

Suffice it to say, it seems more than a few of us have shared similar experiences. I envy you that yours is over since I will be reminded of mine in an hour from now and I am in class. I won't even be able to open this thread without wondering whether she will read it over my shoulder.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm sorry you don't hear similar sentiment often, and I'm very sorry to hear that it's as undesireable a vocation as I imagined it is. Very sorry. I can understand why you don't get thanked on the job - the people you're helping are going through seriously traumatic situations and don't have time for such consideration - as I'm sure you know all too well. Your posts made me think about the best ways to thank local EMTs for their service.

When I got in my bike accident and had to be taken to the hospital for 12 stitches in my forehead, I used what little consciousness I had to thank every one of the EMTs that took me there and stayed with me during the shot and stitches (which I hate).

[PB2K]

I avoid dangerous people.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

When I got in my bike accident and had to be taken to the hospital for 12 stitches in my forehead, I used what little consciousness I had to thank every one of the EMTs that took me there and stayed with me during the shot at stitches (which I hate).

And whether you noticed it or not, we appreciate it. Enough so to mention the few instances we encounter online.

[marden]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

I was about to write that we don't know what proof he did or did not have, but that might get this removed to the PL.

Suffice it to say, it seems more than a few of us have shared similar experiences. I envy you that yours is over since I will be reminded of mine in an hour from now and I am in class. I won't even be able to open this thread without wondering whether she will read it over my shoulder.

Sorry to say, but in planning you always have to assume that whenever something is possible, then you must go on the basis that it will be likely to happen.

[iranfromthezoo]

Originally Posted by bstone 

The fire service guys really impress me. No way would I run into a burning building. Not gonna happen. I'l gladly wait outside for my patients.



That's me. More of them here:
ambo/karate pics

yeah we still get the medicals....actually caught a fun one this morning with the volly dept. As a ambo guy you would love it. The guy told us 12 different hospitals to take him to....

To all the guys that say thanks, we appreciate and defin don't do it for the money. It's the greatest job in the world and everyone waves when you pass by. Still it's nice to know your appreciated after all the crap you go through. BStone I have more respect that you are going into premed....Hopefully you'll be Med Control one day and make life easier.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by iranfromthezoo 

BStone I have more respect that you are going into premed....Hopefully you'll be Med Control one day and make life easier.

so you aren't happy with my being in law school?
I do not plan on chasing my own ambulance nor do I plan on doing any medical malpractice unless it is on the defensive side.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Personally if I was in the car with her I would either tell her to keep her eyes on the road or I would get out then and there. She is putting her own life in danger which is fine but it is hugely irresponsible and just plain old stupid to do the same to anyone else in the car or on the road.

[bstone]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

so you aren't happy with my being in law school?
I do not plan on chasing my own ambulance nor do I plan on doing any medical malpractice unless it is on the defensive side.

Shaya, I think you have the mind of a physician. Remeber when we were in high school and you showed me this weird hematology thing written by your dad? You were actually able to explain some of it. That was cool. I am sure you'll make a fine lawyer but I gotta get you to join the ranks of healer. However, if that fails, then you will be my lawyer. Ok?

[mydog8mymac]

My family has a saying that I find applicable here:

Those who don't listen must feel.

[marden]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Personally if I was in the car with her I would either tell her to keep her eyes on the road or I would get out then and there. She is putting her own life in danger which is fine but it is hugely irresponsible and just plain old stupid to do the same to anyone else in the car or on the road.

While it took more time for me to get to that point (I didn't actually stop her in her tracks as you suggest) that was, essentially, my position and why I told her we were parting.

[marden]

Originally Posted by mydog8mymac 

My family has a saying that I find applicable here:

Those who don't listen must feel.

That's a great saying and it's quite true!

I'd be honored if you'd add that one to the, "Your Favorite Quotations" thread!