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BRussell · Jul 19, 2006, 03:27 PM

Nancy Reagan, Bill Frist, Orrin Hatch, and almost (but not quite) 2/3 of Congress all supported this bill. It would allow federal funding of research on frozen embryos from fertilization clinics that would otherwise be discarded and that the donors give permission to use.

But hey, we've got to get the base out in November. That's more important than saving lives and curing diseases.

Typically crappy and uninformative news article about the veto.

Typically excellent Wikipedia entry on the stem cell controversy.

Dakar · Jul 19, 2006, 03:29 PM

Good job, ass.

Zeeb · Jul 19, 2006, 03:33 PM

As I understand it, stem cell research is widely supported by the general public as well as members of Bush's own party. This will only serve to alienate him further. It's such a tragedy this research is being held up because of someone's personal religious beliefs--so many people could benefit from it. I'm tired of this minority of deluded religious zealots dictating policy for everyone.

I'm all for drawing lines with regard to genetic research and the like, but this hurts no one.

dcmacdaddy · Jul 19, 2006, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zeeb

As I understand it, stem cell research is widely supported by the general public as well as members of Bush's own party. This will only serve to alienate him further. It's such a tragedy this research is being held up because of someone's personal religious beliefs--so many people could benefit from it. I'm tired of this minority of deluded religious zealots dictating policy for everyone.

I'm all for drawing lines with regard to genetic research and the like, but this hurts no one.

Listen buddy, this definitely hurts. There are un-born babies living in test-tubes all over the country and supporting stem-cell research is tantamount to killing these babies. Do you like killing babies that live in test tubes? What the hell is wrong with you? All these test tubes need is a nice loving nurturing home and they will grow up to be fine American babies. Sheesh?!? What kind of jack*ss wants to kill babies living in test tubes?

Landos Mustache · Jul 19, 2006, 03:44 PM

Once again some religion ****s things up for everyone else.

Zeeb · Jul 19, 2006, 03:57 PM

I thoroughly enjoy killing babies in test tubes! It's my personal hobby actually. Are you criticizing it?

ironknee · Jul 19, 2006, 04:07 PM

history will not be kind to bush on this.

hyteckit · Jul 19, 2006, 04:12 PM

More Republican Hyperbole.

Taking cells from a baby - okay
Taking cells from an embryo - taken innocent life

Dakar · Jul 19, 2006, 04:13 PM

I kinda wish this was a poll. See where the forum weighs in on this.

Millennium · Jul 19, 2006, 04:17 PM

I would support any bill which funded embryonic stem cell research, provides that it required that all stem cells used in research be harvested using strictly nonlethal techniques. Until we can use this technology without creating a slave class of humans born only to die, then no amount of potential the research holds could possibly be worth all the lives it would destroy.

Landos Mustache · Jul 19, 2006, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by ironknee

history will not be kind to bush on this.

How in any way will he be looked upon in a positive manner?

analogika · Jul 19, 2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar

I kinda wish this was a poll. See where the forum weighs in on this.

You mean the highly skewed social-outkast drifter that brings up the intense boredom and masochism to read this forum, let alone participate?

evfish84 · Jul 19, 2006, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

More Republican Hyperbole.

Taking cells from a baby - okay
Taking cells from an embryo - taken innocent life

They do not approve of extracting embryonic stem cells because it kills the blastocyst. Taking cells from a child already born has no negative consequences for the child.

ironknee · Jul 19, 2006, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

How in any way will he be looked upon in a positive manner?

hmmm thinking...

Nicko · Jul 19, 2006, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

I would support any bill which funded embryonic stem cell research, provides that it required that all stem cells used in research be harvested using strictly nonlethal techniques. Until we can use this technology without creating a slave class of humans born only to die, then no amount of potential the research holds could possibly be worth all the lives it would destroy.

Well see, thats what cloning is for!

On a slightly more serious note, I hope this drives more research $$$ into Canada, where we appreciate science.

(sure its flamebait, but its true!)

Moderator · Jul 19, 2006, 04:30 PM

Another feather in his cap. Unbelievable.

evfish84 · Jul 19, 2006, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well see, thats what cloning is for!

On a slightly more serious note, I hope this drives more research $$$ into Canada, where we appreciate science.

(sure its flamebait, but its true!)

As a biological researcher in the US, it hurts each time Bush cuts our funding or limits what we can do. It really seems like his stance on molecular biology in general is completely misguided and backwards.

BRussell · Jul 19, 2006, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

I would support any bill which funded embryonic stem cell research, provides that it required that all stem cells used in research be harvested using strictly nonlethal techniques. Until we can use this technology without creating a slave class of humans born only to die, then no amount of potential the research holds could possibly be worth all the lives it would destroy.

"creating a slave class of humans born only to die"

OK, some questions:
1. Are these being created to die, or are they being created for the purpose of getting women pregnant, and then the leftover embryos are being discarded once they either get pregnant or give up on trying?
2. Are they slaves?
3. Are they born?
4. Do they die?

Nicko · Jul 19, 2006, 04:34 PM

So I was wondering earlier... If stem cell research (using methods Bush is against, ie. KILLING BABIES IN TEST TUBES) in another country results in a cure for something like MS, or cancer, or diabetes ect..., would Bush allow the medication or ban its import because of how they produce it?

BRussell · Jul 19, 2006, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nicko

Well see, thats what cloning is for!

On a slightly more serious note, I hope this drives more research $$$ into Canada, where we appreciate science.

(sure its flamebait, but its true!)

Canadian science? Isn't that an oxymoron, kind of like American soccer?

Dakar · Jul 19, 2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nicko

would Bush allow the medication or ban its import because of how they produce it?

I think he might be consistent enough to ban it.

analogika · Jul 19, 2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Nicko

So I was wondering earlier... If stem cell research (using methods Bush is against, ie. KILLING BABIES IN TEST TUBES) in another country results in a cure for something like MS, or cancer, or diabetes ect..., would Bush allow the medication or ban its import because of how they produce it?

Depends on whose lobby pays more to the party fund.

Montezuma58 · Jul 19, 2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by evfish84

They do not approve of extracting embryonic stem cells because it kills the blastocyst. Taking cells from a child already born has no negative consequences for the child.

In vitro fertilization kill loads blastocysts also. A single session of IVF has about a 20%-30% chance of success. Also usually multiple embryos are transplanted in each attempt and parents often attempt the procedure multiple times before getting pregnant you end up with a load of dead "babies".

Kevin · Jul 19, 2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Once again some religion ****s things up for everyone else.

I know people against it that isn't religious.

You really make yourself look like an ass when you make such statements.

evfish84 · Jul 19, 2006, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar

I think he might be consistent enough to ban it.

That would never fly. He would have to allow it as long as it didn't require the continuing killing of embryos (which it probably wouldn’t).

stevesnj · Jul 19, 2006, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

I know people against it that isn't religious.

You really make yourself look like an ass when you make such statements.

Why? This is 100% the reason Bush did it, he doesnt even hide this fact. Your right about some stuff Kevin but this your totally wrong about.

Dakar · Jul 19, 2006, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by evfish84

That would never fly. He would have to allow it as long as it didn't require the continuing killing of embryos (which it probably wouldn’t).

I thought that was the implication of the post I answered.

evfish84 · Jul 19, 2006, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Montezuma58

In vitro fertilization kill loads blastocysts also. A single session of IVF has about a 20%-30% chance of success. Also usually multiple embryos are transplanted in each attempt and parents often attempt the procedure multiple times before getting pregnant you end up with a load of dead "babies".

I am completely aware of what you are saying. I am just repeating the right-winged reasoning for banning stem cells. I have lamented the stem cell ban for years. If stem-cell research is not legal in this country by the time I finish my medical degree, I’m moving to somewhere it is.

Moderator · Jul 19, 2006, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar

I think he might be consistent enough to ban it.

Unless he or his family could benefit from it....guarantee he'd trade an emrbyo for one of his daughters.

Rumor · Jul 19, 2006, 04:46 PM

A baby just isn't a baby without the cool tangy zip of Miracle Whip.

analogika · Jul 19, 2006, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Moderator

Unless he or his family could benefit from it....guarantee he'd trade an emrbyo for one of his daughters.

BTW: Iraq Civilian Bodycount is up to 40,000. How's that for a culture of life.

6,000 dead civilians in the past two months alone.

Kevin · Jul 19, 2006, 04:50 PM

Yes non of those were terrorists.

And none of it is their fault.

I love the derail too.

analogika · Jul 19, 2006, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yes non of those were terrorists.

And none of it is their fault. .

Indeed. Those 6,000 died through terrorist attacks.

Good job assuming there, though.

Knee-jerk, Kevin? Nev-AR!

"

" etc.

Landos Mustache · Jul 19, 2006, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by ironknee

hmmm thinking...

Let me know if you come up with anything. Or anyone else for that matter.

And saying "Protecting us from terrorists" doesn't count unless you are an idiot.

ink · Jul 19, 2006, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Zeeb

I thoroughly enjoy killing babies in test tubes! It's my personal hobby actually. Are you criticizing it?

Sooo... Fertility clinics are, what, in your mind?

Baby deathcamps?

Kevin · Jul 19, 2006, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Indeed. Those 6,000 died through terrorist attacks.

Tell that to the person you were responding to.

Now I will respond to what you later went back and edited in.

Good job assuming there, though.

Knee-jerk, Kevin? Nev-AR!

"

" etc.

What was I assuming?

And why did you go back and edit this in?

Did your original post not tip your hateful meter?

Landos Mustache · Jul 19, 2006, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by ink

Sooo... Fertility clinics are, what, in your mind?

Baby deathcamps?

It is like the movie Coma or something

ironknee · Jul 19, 2006, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Let me know if you come up with anything. Or anyone else for that matter.

And saying "Protecting us from terrorists" doesn't count unless you are an idiot.

lol not terrorists...just terror! david cross had a bit like one day we can finally say, there that was the last one. now the world loves us again!

i can't think of anything so he wins for worst president evar.

Kevin · Jul 19, 2006, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by ironknee

i can't think of anything so he wins for worst president evar.

So your lack of brain matter makes Bush a loser?

Makes sense.

ironknee · Jul 19, 2006, 05:45 PM

too late kevin, i have ruled.

Rumor · Jul 19, 2006, 05:45 PM

He signed in Medicare Part D.

Um, wait, that program is horrible.

Oh, he wants to be known as the education president, so he cut funding.

Um, wait, that doesn't work either.

Kevin · Jul 19, 2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by ironknee

too late kevin, i have ruled.

Go back and re-read what I said.

greenG4 · Jul 19, 2006, 06:17 PM

This is another examplre of how Bush makes a decision based on morals and personal ethics instead of just running with what's popular. I respect him for that. At least you know where he stands on things like this, unlike many politicians.

analogika · Jul 19, 2006, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Tell that to the person you were responding to.

That's a double whoosh right there, Kev.

Triple for calling me "hateful" for that post.

"Knee-jerk" indeed. QEF'in'D

Zeeb · Jul 19, 2006, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by ink

Sooo... Fertility clinics are, what, in your mind?

Baby deathcamps?

I hope you realize I was kidding. Despite my comments earlier about religious zealots setting policy for the majority, I do believe there needs to be ethical considerations in research of this nature. Otherwise, we might find ourselves in a "Gattaca" like situation someday which is most definately not preferable. My personal stance is that life begins when the baby is able to support its life on its own or with the help of hospital equipment so therefore stem cell research is fine.

I know on this thread everyone is going to disagree at which point life begins and much of that has to do with a person's religious beliefs. My irritation comes when one person or a small minority of person's set the moral agenda for the country. Before someone blasts me this type of minority policy setting has happened with regard to more liberal issues as well and I think that is equally bad, despite my usual support of humanistic agenda.

pman68 · Jul 19, 2006, 07:00 PM

Hey, I think Iran ALSO restricts stem cell research.

Bringing this country ever closer to being a religious state. Way to go Bushy!

BRussell · Jul 19, 2006, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by greenG4

This is another examplre of how Bush makes a decision based on morals and personal ethics instead of just running with what's popular. I respect him for that. At least you know where he stands on things like this, unlike many politicians.

Or he's doing it because Karl told him so in order to rev up his base of religious conservatives for the mid-term elections coming up.

Dark Helmet · Jul 19, 2006, 07:09 PM

Hey, you guys voted for him.

Twice.

Kevin · Jul 19, 2006, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

That's a double whoosh right there, Kev.

Triple for calling me "hateful" for that post.

"Knee-jerk" indeed. QEF'in'D

No.

I noticed you left out part of my post, and didn't respond to it.

I wouldn't have if I were you either. So I really can't blame you there.

Originally Posted by pman68

Hey, I think Iran ALSO restricts stem cell research.

Bringing this country ever closer to being a religious state. Way to go Bushy!

Hyperbole.

smacintush · Jul 19, 2006, 07:14 PM

To me, it's not so much that he vetoed this. He is taking a stand and should be applauded for sticking to his belief on the subject, no matter whether I (we) agree with him or not.

My problem is that after years of signing everything that was put within arms reach of him, THIS is the only one he has felt unworthy? Maybe congress should have attached a couple of billion worth of pork to the bill, then he would have signed it.

Originally Posted by Rumor

Oh, he wants to be known as the education president, so he cut funding.

Um, wait, that doesn't work either.

You should know better. There are no REAL cuts in federal spending, only reductions in the rate of growth.

And Bush has spent a phenomenal amount on education spending thus far, far more than the previous administration.