[besson3c]

I haven't watched the entire SotU address, I don't know if I will, but what little I watched I noticed that Obama once again brought out the American exceptionalism which has been present in virtually every administration and the rhetoric of just about any aspiring politician.

For instance, Obama brought up examples of great American technological innovation, some sort of success story and made the usual point that "in no other country is this possible".

Is this thinking exactly what could (or has) made Americans lose its edge? The USA is far from the only country that innovates stuff, and while there are still plenty of rags to riches and this country has enormous spending power, I don't see why the same sorts of opportunities don't exist today in tapping into international markets?

If you are tempted to accuse me of being anti-America in response to this, I'd like to know why you feel that way based on what I have written here. The quickness to label people who question this or take a defensive stance of some sort is also something that might be a byproduct of whatever it is here that I'm trying to put my finger on.

Isn't it in our best interest to be hungry for excellence and betterment rather than just assuring us that we are already there? Some would say that the hardest thing about being a prize-fighter is *staying* a prize-fighter.

Let's avoid the usual back and forth about what policies are leading us to impending doom, okay? I'm more interested in the cultural aspect to all of this which is nothing new.

[Doofy]

It's just patriotism Bess.
Due to the unique way in which Amerika is populated (i.e. immigrants), the only shared value is the flag and constitution manifesto. Thus, the only ties that bind are a weird form of patriotism which shows up in statements like "in no other country is this possible".

Amerika never had an edge to start with. It only thinks it does.

[besson3c]

Doofy, please do not pick a fight by provoking other members. America obviously had/has an edge in its markets and global power, and there is no need to mock it by misspelling it.

I'm not offended at that, but I think you know that some here will be irritated by it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Doofy, please do not pick a fight by provoking other members.

Dude, I'm telling you the answer to your question. If you don't like the truth then don't ask the question in the first place.

Amerika has never had the edge - Amerika has had the illusion of an edge. Any silly bugger with a 13 trillion overdraft can project the illusion of power.

[BadKosh]

The USA did have an edge. We lost it in the 1990's. If other countries had the best minds they sure didn't use them in the right ways. if other countries had better work forces, or methods of manufacturing or agriculture they didn't use them wisely.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

The USA did have an edge. We lost it in the 1990's. If other countries had the best minds they sure didn't use them in the right ways. if other countries had better work forces, or methods of manufacturing or agriculture they didn't use them wisely.

So let's compare a 1980s Porsche with a 1980s anything you like from Amerika.

It's an illusion. You bought into it.

[SpaceMonkey]

Exceptionalism means different things to different people. For Doofy it obviously means skill at building niche luxury automobiles or similar examples. For most of U.S. history, the idea of "exceptionalism" referred to the potential for America's unlimited growth as a culture, military power, economy, etc. (all of these intrinsically linked to the relatively high growth rate of the U.S. population), and this originated by virtue of the fact that for most of history the United States has had a lot more land than it needs. There was a visceral sense that America had lots of room to grow, and Europe was literally boxed in. The high water mark of American exceptionalism was the period immediately following World War Two, when America was virtually the only country left standing and so wielded an incredibly disproportionate influence on the world stage. It took about 30 years for Europe to catch up after that, and the last 30 years have been a process of the rest of the world catching up.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Dude, I'm telling you the answer to your question. If you don't like the truth then don't ask the question in the first place.

Amerika has never had the edge - Amerika has had the illusion of an edge. Any silly bugger with a 13 trillion overdraft can project the illusion of power.

This is true to some extent, but America has also had an edge in non-economic areas too. Some of this may simply be attributed largely to its population, but look at how it fares at olympic games and other athletic things, the elite schools, the entertainment industry, the impact its music and culture has had on the world, the inventions, etc.

[Lint Police]

McDonalds. ****ing McDonalds. [/thread]

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So let's compare a 1980s Porsche with a 1980s anything you like from Amerika.

It's an illusion. You bought into it.

You'll need to go back a few more decades, but at one point we did build the best automobiles in the world. We out manufactured the Germans too. Really since the post WW2 era we switched from an economy based on manufacturing to one based on consumerism. That's about when we started to lose our edge. Prior to that, however, our dominance in all fields was unmistakable.

Did the UK ever make a car that didn't need a personal mechanic as standard equipment?

[imitchellg5]

It's not exclusive to America. Watch any Olympic opening ceremony and you'll see the same thing; Mr. World Leader will stand up and say "Such a display of technology and passion and performance can only happen in the great country of Britswazistan." Nations tend to be kind to themselves.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Did the UK ever make a car that didn't need a personal mechanic as standard equipment?

Yes. Britain has made some exceptional cars that were very reliable, mostly right before and right after World War II. In fact, in 1946, only 69 cars were imported to Britain. Not 69,000, just 69.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

The high water mark of American exceptionalism was the period immediately following World War Two, when America was virtually the only country left standing...

That's easy to accomplish when you show up 3 years late. Both times.

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

The USA did have an edge. We lost it in the 1990's.

Oh, were you serious?

"American Exceptionalism" is the myth that the US is more free, more just, more prosperous than the European backwaters. It hasn't been true for at least 60 years. Life in the US isn't much different from any other westernized nation.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Yes. Britain has made some exceptional cars that were very reliable, mostly right before and right after World War II. In fact, in 1946, only 69 cars were imported to Britain. Not 69,000, just 69.

Hehhe.. 69.. sex.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

It's not exclusive to America. Watch any Olympic opening ceremony and you'll see the same thing; Mr. World Leader will stand up and say "Such a display of technology and passion and performance can only happen in the great country of Britswazistan." Nations tend to be kind to themselves.

That may be so, my frame of reference is with Canada which doesn't seem as insistent on this sort of thing.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That may be so, my frame of reference is with Canada which doesn't seem as insistent on this sort of thing.

Okay, so watch the opening ceremony speeches from Vancouver 2010.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Okay, so watch the opening ceremony speeches from Vancouver 2010.

I did. I recall the usual propaganda, but not assertions that Canada is above other countries.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So let's compare a 1980s Porsche with a 1980s anything you like from Amerika.

It's an illusion. You bought into it.

So anybody else build anything comparable to the SR-71?
NOPE. Not even close.

How about Mainframe computers in the 1960's? NOPE.

Show us your moon rocks.

Show us your Stealth Fighter, or Stealth Bomber, both 1980's era.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

So anybody else build anything comparable to the SR-71?
NOPE. Not even close.

How about Mainframe computers in the 1960's? NOPE.

Show us your moon rocks.

Show us your Stealth Fighter, or Stealth Bomber, both 1980's era.

Show us your Concorde.
Show us your Thrust 2.
Show us your theory of black holes.
Show us your world wide web.
Show us your ARM processors.
Show us your walkmans.
Show us your EDSAC.

It's all bollocks. Amerika isn't exceptional in anything, except bullshit and being fat.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So let's compare a 1980s Porsche with a 1980s anything you like from Amerika.

It's an illusion. You bought into it.

Shelby was making some nice stuff back then. Just sayin'.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So let's compare a 1980s Porsche with a 1980s anything you like from Amerika.

It's an illusion. You bought into it.

Macintosh 128k?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Shelby was making some nice stuff back then. Just sayin'.

With the best of the bunch being half-British.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's all bollocks. Amerika isn't exceptional in anything, except bullshit and being fat.

Oh yeah! Well, Van Nuys, CA has more porn /sq mi than any other place on Earth. So, take that!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Macintosh 128k?

Before we descend to the level of listing every product every country has ever come up with, we should get to the point: Contrary to the assertion that Amerika is the only country where everyone's not living in mud huts, the rest of the world has been doing quite nicely and coming out with their own technological advances.

Thus, "in no other country is this possible" is complete bullshit.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Oh yeah! Well, Van Nuys, CA has more porn /sq mi than any other place on Earth. So, take that!

OK, I need to correct...

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's all bollocks. Amerika isn't exceptional in anything, except bullshit, being fat and the quantity of young gentlemen fapping to porn because they ain't getting any.

[besson3c]

America invented Sarah Palin.


Yes, I'm trolling my own thread.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Amerika never had an edge to start with. It only thinks it does.

And that, my friend, is the spark that's needed. The rest unfolds like daybreak.

The limeys have always been pissed that they didn't take it to 11 when they had the chance.

America IS exceptional. If nothing else, it's exceptional for all the best/brightest that are tripping over themselves to get here and set up shop.

And don't forget: We have nuclear weapons, and we're not afraid to use them. We are effing-A unique in THAT respect, sad to say.

[Shaddim]

I feel exceptional, ask anyone who's felt me.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I feel exceptional, ask anyone who's felt me.

That might be a little too kinky for MacNN. This is a family forum, you know.

[Dork.]

I think there is something to the notion of American Exceptionalism. America has provided leadership over the years, in many fields, and many of the countries that may be "just catching up" got there by emulating America. But many here act as if it is the American birthright to lead the world, and that any suggestion that we might be slipping is not patriotic.

I would like to propose that "American Exceptionalism" is not a birthright, but it must be earned by each generation. If other countries look at America as a superpower and follow our lead, it is because America is leading them to where they want to go. If they are sending their students to our Universities and consuming our culture, it is because they judge our offerings to be worthy of their attention (and better than their own). If we want to stay exceptional, we need to work at it, and be honest when we recognize we need to work at it harder. I think Obama struck the right tone in his speech, and I think it will be interesting to see how it all works out.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Subjects like this always make me laugh.

It showcases one thing about many Euros and canucks that I've noticed: absolute America OBSESSION. Scared absolutely shitless of anything America might have done first or better than them. And admit it- the surest way to set a euroweenie or insecure canuck off on a complete hyper-nationalistic tirade, is for an American simply to dare to LIKE America! Seriously, this sends the REAL hyper-patriots -for anything non-American- into absolute sissy-fits of passive-aggressive nationalistic ferver!

Doofy (posterchild of the aforementioned phenomena!) , you're the single most weirdly-nationalistic person I've ever encountered, bar none. No American I know is as weird about national identity as you come off. (And ironically, no American I've ever encountered is as obsessed with their own country as you are with one you don't live in. Move here already, you know you adore the place! Frankly, we're not worthy of your level of obsession, I'm almost fearful you'll be disappointed, after elevating us so high on a pedestal. Most of the US is just NORMAL, full of average people just going about their lives, like most any place anywhere. )

And of course that weird canuk inferiority complex, despite Canada being a great nation with many merits of it's own. I guess it's something in the culture that can't quite accept itself. (Maybe for being a bitch-state for euroweenie masters for so long before finally daring to do their own thing? I dunno.)

Yes, there are many exceptional things about America- get over it. Learn to love your own nation and stop obsessing over mine. (EDIT: Ok, for the euros- learn to love your own country to a NORMAL level, not to the point where you're holding your arm out for the next deadly '-ism' following some cartoon-mustached idiot around, taking over half the world, and tossing millions of your neighbors into ovens on command.)

It's creepy. It's probably part of the same insecure weirdness that's led euroweenies to cause most of the trouble in the world, and then whine that America didn't immediately drop everything and rush to save them from the latest results of whatever their own hyper-nationalistic madness and simmering anti-___ hatred boiling just under the surface allowed them to fall hook, line, and sinker for AGAIN- as proved YET AGAIN in this very thread!

[sek929]

This just got interesting.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Yeah, isn't it about time for someone to start another thread pointing to a list that confirms for them that their country is as good as the US at something? Wow, it might even be okay to like your country if it's on a list!

Or another thread where the OP is questioning something about a country the OP isn't from?

Yes, I always see Americans starting threads about "OMG! The UK is...!" "OMG! Canada did....!" Always.

Or... virtually never.

So just who is it that's hyper-nationalistic again? I forget.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

It showcases one thing about many Euros and canucks that I've noticed: absolute America OBSESSION.

But Crash, dear, the thread's about Amerika. Start a thread about Brazil and I'll give my opinion about Brazil. Start a thread about the UK and I'll give my opinion about the UK. Start a thread about Bulgaria and I'll shut up because I don't know anything about Bulgaria (well, other than the fact that there's quite a healthy metal community in Sofia).

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Scared absolutely shitless of anything America might have done first or better than them.

Ummm, no.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

And admit it- the surest way to set a euroweenie or insecure canuck off on a complete hyper-nationalistic tirade, is for an American simply to dare to LIKE America! Seriously, this sends the REAL hyper-patriots -for anything non-American- into absolute sissy-fits of passive-aggressive nationalistic ferver!

Doofy (posterchild of the aforementioned phenomena!) , you're the single most weirdly-nationalistic person I've ever encountered, bar none. No American I know is as weird about national identity as you come off. (And ironically, no American I've ever encountered is as obsessed with their own country as you are with one you don't live in. Move here already, you know you adore the place! Frankly, we're not worthy of your level of obsession, I'm almost fearful you'll be disappointed, after elevating us so high on a pedestal.

It's like this, honey buns: What're you're seeing from me is supranationalism. I don't give the slightest bit of a toss about any country... because I have three passports and class myself as a citizen of the world. I am not the country I was born in or live in.
You don't understand it because you've been brainwashed into loving an abstract entity (a country) so much that you can't frame anything relating to countries in anything other than a wash of patriotism.
Thus, since you're so nationalistic yourself you can't do anything but pop it into the mental box marked "nationalism" and then go with the standard "USA! USA! Your country's shit! USA! USA!" as a retort.

It's an insecurity on your part, Crash, that you need to identify with the collective you were born into. Like some sort of bizarre communist/statist mentality sucking at a teat it can't quite wean itself off.

It's quite amusing watching Amerikans rant at the slightest suggestion that their abstract entity is the same as everyone else's abstract entity and that they're not "special". Should be an Olympic event. That's why people do it, Crash... ...because it's so easy and it's so amusing.

[Shaddim]

It is true, to an extent. We don't thump our chests nearly as much as others claim we do. Maybe if you guys just focus on the shit that makes you feel special you won't worry as much about our specialness? Then, we can just all sit around and feel exceptional together and be excellent to each other. Whoa!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Yes, I always see Americans starting threads about "OMG! The UK is...!" "OMG! Canada did....!" Always.

Or... virtually never.

You boys really should pay attention to what's happening in the world outside your borders. It wouldn't pay for someone to accuse you of being insular and ignorant, would it?

Go on, start a "the UK is..." thread. I dare you.

[Shaddim]

Wow, this is some really exceptional weed... I think it's Bolivian. So, there's something to give Bolivia the thumbs-up for. Good cheeba, gentlemen!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It is true, to an extent. We don't thump our chests nearly as much as others claim we do.

Afraid yous do (not you personally, obviously. I'm quite sure your IQ is well into three figures). It's a special stealthy kind of chest-thumping, as demonstrated here by Crash. Everyone else can spot it a mile off. People like Crash can't.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Maybe if you guys just focus on the shit that makes you feel special

Well, that certainly ain't tied to where I was born.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

you won't worry as much about our specialness?

Nobody's worried. Except Crash.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Then, we can just all sit around and feel exceptional together and be excellent to each other. Whoa!

Party on, dude!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Wow, this is some really exceptional weed... I think it's Bolivian. So, there's something to give Bolivia the thumbs-up for. Good cheeba, gentlemen!

DON'T BE SO HYPER-NATIONALISTIC!
Allcaps

[besson3c]

Why do US politicians keep on insisting on telling us about how great the country is? Is it because we need to hear it and if we don't we'll think that something is wrong? Brainless tradition like the obligatory "God Bless America" at the end of speeches? Do they think we'll pay less attention to stuff if we aren't paying attention? Is it in their best interest for us to think that we're the best at stuff? Is it sincere?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do US politicians keep on insisting on telling us about how great the country is? Is it because we need to hear it and if we don't we'll think that something is wrong? Brainless tradition like the obligatory "God Bless America" at the end of speeches? Do they think we'll pay less attention to stuff if we aren't paying attention? Is it in their best interest for us to think that we're the best at stuff? Is it sincere?

Nah. You're just too stressed, though. Everyone needs to get this stuff from Bolivia and enjoy more sex. If you're stoned and satisfied it's really tough to be at odds with anyone.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

So let's compare a 1980s Porsche with a 1980s anything you like from Amerika.

[Shaddim]

ugh, 924. Yeah, that was shit. Looks like an `85.5 SVO, I had one of those. Great ride. It's still parked at my aunt's house, I may restore it some day.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Now throw in some corners.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

ugh, 924. Yeah, that was shit.

Nah man - they weren't that bad. Quite fun around the twisty bits. There's still a few rolling around.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do US politicians keep on insisting on telling us about how great the country is? Is it because we need to hear it and if we don't we'll think that something is wrong?

You remember how when you were a kid and you used to bring crappy pictures home and mom used to tell you how good they were? This is the adult version of that.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Is it sincere?

No. Nothing that ever comes out of any politician's mouth is ever sincere.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No. Nothing that ever comes out of any politician's mouth is ever sincere.

That makes me sad. When I was a boy I remember meeting a politician in Canada and he told me that I was a handsome and smart young lad. Now I think he wasn't sincere.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Now throw in some corners.

Yes, that's what the four wheel discs and Konis are for. It's hard to accelerate out of a corner with 95 horsepower.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Yes, that's what the four wheel discs and Konis are for. It's hard to accelerate out of a corner with 95 horsepower.

Of course, in some cars you don't really need to brake for the corner so therefore don't really need to accelerate out of it. Unless you're a fatty and your mass causes inertia problems when the container your blob-like body resides in changes direction.

Just sayin'. In general. I know you're only about 80 lbs wet through so not directed at you personally. 924s ain't fast, but they can be fun.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But Crash, dear, the thread's about Amerika. Start a thread about Brazil and I'll give my opinion about Brazil.

I'm not obsessed with Brazil the way you are with America. Brazil's got some great stuff going on. It has problems too. But I don't wake up and obsess about places I don't live. Why would I? It's weird.

Start a thread about the UK and I'll give my opinion about the UK.

Again, I'm not obsessed with places I don't live.

Maybe you can start a thread about the UK (now there's an IDEA- you actually focused on the place where you come from, rather than places you know nothing about, yet are obessed with) and explain why the Brits -obession with everywhere else- felt the need to have some shitty 'empire' that the sun never set on? In the process, you helped **** up half the world (along with the other euroweenie nations) and now a big part of your national past time seems to be both excusing yourself of responsibility for it, as well as blaming America for it.

How about a thread about how euroweenies had to start some EU thing to trick yourselves into not slitting each other's throats every couple of decades?

Start a thread about Bulgaria and I'll shut up because I don't know anything about Bulgaria (well, other than the fact that there's quite a healthy metal community in Sofia).

You shut up about something you know nothing about? PUH-LEASE!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

I'm not obsessed with Brazil the way you are with America. Brazil's got some great stuff going on. It has problems too.

Who's obsessed? I'm simply engaging in conversation. You realise that people can have a conversation about something without being obsessed with it, no?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

But I don't wake up and obsess about places I don't live. Why would I? It's weird.
Again, I'm not obsessed with places I don't live.

So, ignorance is it then.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Maybe you can start a thread about the UK (now there's an IDEA- you actually focused on the place where you come from

I do plenty of moaning about the UK in other places. Start a thread on it, I'll give opinion. Which aspect of the UK would you like me to critique?

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

In the process, you helped **** up half the world (along with the other euroweenie nations) and now a big part of your national past time seems to be both excusing yourself of responsibility for it

No Crash. The politicians give a toss about that kind of thing. The rest of the population doesn't care, since we're not that old and thus weren't actually responsible for any of it. The national pastime is, in fact, drinking and stabbing each other in the necks with chip forks (it's fun - you should try it sometime)... ...this is why we need nationalised health care - for all the neck injuries.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

How about a thread about how euroweenies had to start some EU thing to trick yourselves into not slitting each other's throats every couple of decades?

Yeah, start a thread about the EU. I'd go for that. Here's a taster: I think the EU is a big bunch of oppressive shite set up by the commies who had nothing better to do after the USSR collapsed. High end EUpigs like Prodi were even on the KGB payroll for a while, so their commie credentials are quite firmly seated.
But it's quite good for nipping over and molesting Italian chicks.

You might want to get your logic in order first, though, before going for that conversation. What you basically said there is that "weenies" like killing each other. Killing each other doesn't sound very weenie-ish to me.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You shut up about something you know nothing about? PUH-LEASE!

Yep. That's why you'll never find me in a thread about cooking or HDTV or iPads.