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Ceramic knives
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OreoCookie
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Jun 15, 2010, 06:50 PM
 
I want to give my sister a santoku knife as a gift. And I've thought about getting her a ceramic knife since they are lighter and do not need to be sharpened as often. Both points are important: I don't think my sister will ever have the intention of sharpening a knife, it's in the same category as making backups of her precious data on her computer

So do ceramic knives need to be honed before use? (I hone my knives before each use.) How brittle and fragile are they really? I'd like to hear your input
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Oisín
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Jun 15, 2010, 06:52 PM
 
I thought ceramic knives never had to be sharpened, and that sharpening them would actually ruin them?!

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OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 15, 2010, 06:58 PM
 
I don't think so either, although I've heard you can send your knife in to Kyocera and they'll sharpen it for you. You only need to pay for shipping and handling.

However, honing ≠ sharpening.
If you look at the edge of a knife under a microscope, you see that it looks like a sawtooth more. Honing aligns all those microscopic teeth in one direction. If you then buff the knife, it'll cut down the size of the teeth.
(At least that's the way I understand the process.)
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Brien
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Jun 15, 2010, 06:59 PM
 
They're SHARP, but don't drop one or you'll be sorry. They need no honing, but if they need to be sharpened, you usually have to send them into Kyocera etc.
     
ThinkInsane
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Jun 15, 2010, 07:13 PM
 
They aren't great for chopping, but they are terrific for slicing. I was chopping an onion with mine and the edge chipped, so you might want to keep in mind her needs before buying one.
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Thorzdad
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Jun 15, 2010, 09:23 PM
 
Ceramics are sharp as hell and never need sharpening. They are also very expensive and not forgiving when dropped or knocked around. Get her a really good steel santoku. It will serve her best, in the long run.
     
macaddict0001
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Jun 16, 2010, 01:30 AM
 
Some one who is not passionate about tools will likely abuse them, don't spend a lot. The edge will probably be used as a screwdriver or prybar anyway.Ok maybe not a santoku but still.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 16, 2010, 02:54 AM
 
She's getting there. I got her a good pan and she has gotten to love it really quickly. And she said she's envious of my knives. So I thought of getting her a ceramic knife because they're lighter and don't need to be maintained as regularly. To be honest, they felt really nice in my hands when I tried them in the store, perhaps a little light, though.

And to get the most out of good knives, you need to care for them.
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Phileas
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Jun 16, 2010, 08:26 AM
 
Ceramic knives are a waste of time for all but the most specialized chefs. I cook a lot, and used to work in kitchens, my go to knife is a $20 carbon steel copy of a French all purpose farmers knife.

My expensive chef knife stays unused must of the time.

My second favorite, especially for slicing, is a CCK cleaver from Hong Kong. Again, carbon steel, very thin blade, $40.00. Good knives don't need to be expensive, but you do need to know what you're buying.

For you sister, a Wuesthof santuko might be a good option. They come with a slight curve, so encourage a proper rocking technique and the blade is pretty forgiving.

I suggest giving her the knife together with a knife skill course, where she can learn how to use it properly. It makes all the difference.
     
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Jun 16, 2010, 09:27 AM
 
I would give her a MAC knife. Their Chef line is a great value but would still be a very, very high-quality gift that would make both of you proud.

Their TH-80 is, as Phileas put it, my go-to knife. It is a perfect-length chef's knife, and light and thin and bendy. It has also taken abuse from drunken friends who want to "cut shit at Greg's place." It holds a great edge - but like any knife you buy, yes, you will eventually have to sharpen it somewhere.

I've never felt the need to follow the trend and get the "all-important santoku" up to this point - this knife is my do-it-all tool. You can find it for less than $100 without much effort. You will also probably find a great number of reviews praising the greatness of this knife.

Forget the ceramic - do her a favour!

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OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 16, 2010, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
For you sister, a Wuesthof santuko might be a good option. They come with a slight curve, so encourage a proper rocking technique and the blade is pretty forgiving.
Actually, my mom was trying a Wüsthof santoku knife in her stead (since their hands are of similar size) and my mom preferred it to the Kyocera.

Regarding the cleaver, I reckon it's too heavy and bulky for her.
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I've never felt the need to follow the trend and get the "all-important santoku" up to this point - this knife is my do-it-all tool. You can find it for less than $100 without much effort. You will also probably find a great number of reviews praising the greatness of this knife.
My main knife is also not a santoku knife (yet?), it's called meat knife which is not quite as tall as a chef knife. I'll probably get a santoku knife as a graduation gift from my uncle.

I thought of a santoku knife for my sister since it is smaller and lighter than a traditional chef knife.

So it looks as if no one is recommending Kyocera, I see.
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finboy
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Jun 16, 2010, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Ceramic knives are a waste of time for all but the most specialized chefs. I cook a lot, and used to work in kitchens, my go to knife is a $20 carbon steel copy of a French all purpose farmers knife.
Linky?
     
Phileas
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Jun 16, 2010, 11:28 AM
 
Lee Valley Hardware

It's gone up in price a bit. Tang goes all the way to the back of the handle, glued and riveted in with brass rivets. I get it sharpened twice a year by a restaurant service, holds an edge beautifully.



I've got a Grohmann hand forged 10" Chefs knife that cost 20 times as much, but I rarely use it. There's something great about a simple, cheap tool that works well.

( Last edited by Phileas; Jun 16, 2010 at 11:37 AM. )
     
tooki
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Jun 16, 2010, 01:25 PM
 
OK, I'll be the dissenting voice here: I love ceramic knives. The only real reason that my everyday knives are stainless steel is because they don't make really long ceramic ones.

Ceramic stays very sharp for a very long time. But you must respect it, because ceramic does not have the flexibility of metal, it's very brittle. This means:
  • No cutting on ANY hard surfaces. That means absolutely no cutting on metal, glass, stone, or dishes. Always, always, ALWAYS cut on a wood or plastic cutting board. Zero exceptions. If you follow this rule, it will stay sharp for years.
  • No prying or crushing. Don't use it to pry open an oyster or a jar, and don't use it to crush garlic using the side of the blade.
  • Don't cut anything extremely hard. That means not cutting things that are frozen solid, and not cutting bones. (Cutting the cartilage of a chicken is fine.)
  • Don't try to hone* or sharpen it. Honing is bending back the edge of the blade that got bent over. That doesn't happen on ceramic, so honing will do nothing more than damage the blade. If, after many years, it really needs sharpening, call the manufacturer and find out where to send it. A regular knife store cannot do it.
  • Try to never drop it. I've dropped them on linoleum before with no ill effects, but I'm sure they would not survive every fall to my current tile floor.

*In fact, they make ceramic honing "steels" for honing metal knives, because the ceramic is much harder. I own one.
     
Phileas
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Jun 16, 2010, 01:47 PM
 
^ All of these are reasons for me not to own one.

I need a tool that works, not something I need to constantly baby
     
finboy
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Jun 16, 2010, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Lee Valley Hardware

It's gone up in price a bit. Tang goes all the way to the back of the handle, glued and riveted in with brass rivets. I get it sharpened twice a year by a restaurant service, holds an edge beautifully.
TYVM. I'll keep my eyes open for something similar.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 16, 2010, 09:09 PM
 
There's nothing in the world better for sushi.
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moonmonkey
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Jun 17, 2010, 12:35 AM
 
I would avoid ceramics unless it's for specialized tasks.
The feel and weight is wrong for a general purpose knife, and I hate the way they don't glance off finernails the way steel does, ceramics bite in and slice through finernails, so fast vegetable chopping is impossible / v dangerous.
     
Phileas
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Jun 17, 2010, 06:54 AM
 
If your fingernails are anywhere near the blade you need to work on your knife skills. When chopping vegetables you use the claw grip, guiding the knife with the first set of knuckles on your fingers.

Your fingernails should be safely tucked away.
     
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Jun 17, 2010, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
There's nothing in the world better for sushi.
Better than what? Ceramic?

Japanese chefs don't use ceramic sushi (sashimi) knives, that I'm aware of.
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OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 17, 2010, 10:48 AM
 
Well, Kyocera makes ridiculously expensive ceramic sashimi knives, so I assume some Japanese chefs are using ceramic knives for cutting sashimi.
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Shaddim
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Jun 17, 2010, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Better than what? Ceramic?

Japanese chefs don't use ceramic sushi (sashimi) knives, that I'm aware of.
The ones I've met do, that's how I learned about ceramic. They slice through fish better than anything else I've ever seen, and I have some decent cutlery (Wusthof, Mercer, etc.). Again, these are slicing knives, I don't use them for chopping.
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Jun 17, 2010, 01:14 PM
 
Huh.

Yeah, I guess. I dunno. I've only seen steel/carbon in yanagiba knives, but I'm sure they exist. I just can't imagine a working chef putting up with ceramic knives? Seems to me they wouldn't last a month in a work environment.


Either way, I would certainly go steel Oreo. Ceramic is just too much babying, especially for a person/family who doesn't really care about following all the "rules." Sooner or later, someone is going to start hacking away on a dinner plate or drop it on the floor or throw it in a drawer filled with other knives!

greg
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tooki
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Jun 17, 2010, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Better than what? Ceramic?

Japanese chefs don't use ceramic sushi (sashimi) knives, that I'm aware of.
Actually, sushi is one of the reasons the ceramic knife was invented! Supposedly the ceramic doesn’t leave as many metallic ion traces (or something vaguely mumbo-jumboey like that) on the fish. Ostensibly, ceramic doesn’t alter the taste of the fish as much.

And they’re hella, hella sharp.
     
tooki
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Jun 17, 2010, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
^ All of these are reasons for me not to own one.

I need a tool that works, not something I need to constantly baby
Well none of the things I listed are good for a regular knife, either! OK, crushing garlic is totally, totally fine with a metal knife. But every single other thing will at minimum dull the blade of a metal knife, vastly accelerating the speed at which you’ll have to sharpen (not just hone) it, or can lead to damage that may not be correctable.

So yes, a metal knife is more forgiving, but only insofar as that it dies a slower death. Most people abuse their knives, which is why they then have dull, dangerous knives that “glance off” things, which is incredibly hazardous. (A dull knife slides around, so it may go places you didn’t intend — such as your finger.)
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 18, 2010, 03:04 AM
 
@tooki
What ceramic knifes do you use or have experience with?
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Jun 18, 2010, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki View Post
So yes, a metal knife is more forgiving, but only insofar as that it dies a slower death.
Well for me, it's "insofar as you can fix it relatively easily."

You'd have to be doing some serious damage to it in order to really mess up a good knife. Anything else and yes, you might have to spend some time on it, but you can fix an edge. (I recently cracked the tip edge off my MAC... putting it on a stone this weekend.)

For me, it's about usability. $100 will get you a great knife that you can treat relatively poorly and still have it tick away.

As for the sushi thing... huh, I didn't know that. I've never seen a sushi chef with a ceramic knife though. Weird.

greg
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Phileas
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Jun 18, 2010, 01:13 PM
 
Yep. My oldest knife, that's still in use, is a 1930's meat slicer. It's been resharpened so many times that the blade is probably about half as wide of what it used to be, but it's a great, sharp knife.

Each to their own with the ceramic knives of course, but for me they look like a solution in search of a problem.
     
moonmonkey
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Jun 18, 2010, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
If your fingernails are anywhere near the blade you need to work on your knife skills. When chopping vegetables you use the claw grip, guiding the knife with the first set of knuckles on your fingers.

Your fingernails should be safely tucked away.
LOL, thats what they teach you in catering college, that changed very quickly when I started a real job.

FYI Im a Michelin starred chef, both me and my colleagues use our fingernails when chopping.
     
Brien
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Jun 18, 2010, 10:21 PM
 
Well, like anything else, knife skills are a use it or lose it skill. While I'm pretty good for self-taught, If I had the time I'd find work in a kitchen for the summer.

But yes, go with some good carbon-steel knives.
     
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Jun 18, 2010, 10:50 PM
 
I don't have any knives that I hate enough to try and sharpen myself. Hone = yes. Sharpen, NO! When needed I get them professionally sharpened.
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OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 19, 2010, 05:53 AM
 
That's what I love about this forum: we have everything from musicians, graphics designers, physicists, physicians, lawyers -- and apparently award-winning chefs
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Jun 19, 2010, 06:06 AM
 
i'm an astronaut too, I joined NASA after I got chucked out of delta force because of the publicity caused by my nobel prize nomination.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Jun 19, 2010, 06:28 AM
 
… and there I thought I was the only one
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Oisín
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Originally Posted by moonmonkey View Post
i'm an astronaut too, I joined NASA after I got chucked out of delta force because of the publicity caused by my nobel prize nomination.
And here I thought you were a graphic designer.

Though I guess a graphic designer wouldn’t neglect to update his signature pics when his MobileMe subscription ran out (?), resulting in little blue squares with white question marks in them.
     
moonmonkey
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Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
And here I thought you were a graphic designer.

Though I guess a graphic designer wouldn’t neglect to update his signature pics when his MobileMe subscription ran out (?), resulting in little blue squares with white question marks in them.
oops.
     
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Jun 19, 2010, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's what I love about this forum: we have everything from musicians, graphics designers, physicists, physicians, lawyers -- and apparently award-winning chefs
And special forces (someone is a retired PJ), and C3P0, and pilots, and navy, and pastors, and Rob.
We have everything here. Except anybody man enough to direct the correct household personnel to the kitchen.
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Oisín
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Jun 19, 2010, 02:28 PM
 
And special forces (someone is a retired PJ)
Upgraded to nightgown?
     
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Jun 19, 2010, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And special forces (someone is a retired PJ), and C3P0, and pilots, and navy, and pastors, and Rob.
We have everything here. Except anybody man enough to direct the correct household personnel to the kitchen.
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Phileas
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Jun 19, 2010, 08:15 PM
 
Here's a pro tip - when working in a restaurant kitchen, never put a knife into sudsy water. Failure to adhere to this rule might result in a pissed (for good reason) dishwasher throwing a knife at you.

Oh, and moonmonkey - would love to know what kitchens you've worked in.
     
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Jun 19, 2010, 09:38 PM
 
I refuse to pander to the demands of someone who's countries most influential export is a guy who can't cook, who hosts his cooking show from a giant mobile toaster.
     
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Originally Posted by moonmonkey View Post
I refuse to pander to the demands of someone who's countries most influential export is a guy who can't cook, who hosts his cooking show from a giant mobile toaster.
Are you talking about Germany, Britain, or Canadia?
     
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Jun 19, 2010, 10:11 PM
 
Canadia.
     
tooki
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Jun 20, 2010, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
@tooki
What ceramic knifes do you use or have experience with?
A roughly 6” mini chef’s knife, i don’t remember the brand. My stepdad got it as a gift something like 15 years ago. It would be sharper if my parents didn’t use it on plates… and it’s still the sharpest knife in their drawer!
     
Shaddim
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Jun 20, 2010, 11:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And special forces (someone is a retired PJ), and C3P0, and pilots, and navy, and pastors, and Rob.
We have everything here. Except anybody man enough to direct the correct household personnel to the kitchen.
Well, I'm a better cook than my womenfolk. Most of the time, I cook and they do dishes. It's a decent arrangement.
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Jun 21, 2010, 09:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, I'm a better cook than my womenfolk. Most of the time, I cook and they do dishes. It's a decent arrangement.
That's how this house runs too. I make the mess, she cleans it up.
     
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Jun 21, 2010, 11:44 PM
 
Dang, I'm usually stuck doing both.
     
Phileas
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Jun 22, 2010, 10:31 AM
 
First thing I learned in a kitchen is cleaning up while cooking. That way there's hardly any mess when you're done.
     
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Jun 22, 2010, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
First thing I learned in a kitchen is cleaning up while cooking. That way there's hardly any mess when you're done.
I do that myself. I wish I could impart that wisdom on the rest of my family.
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Jun 22, 2010, 10:56 AM
 
That and have your stuff prepped properly.
     
 
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