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Question on 7B85 as GM
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ElMac
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:26 AM
 
First post, thanks for all welcomes!

Now the question. I have a big doubt:
if 7B85 is GM why has not been posted to all the paying developers like always was done for the past GM releases.....Don't say to prevent piracy, because it is already available around.......

El Mac
     
mitchell_pgh
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:32 AM
 
I think it's because nobody is 100% sure. Many are 99% sure... I think it's a solid build so I'll be happy with it. They can always drop a 90+ MB update afterwards...
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:33 AM
 
Not all GM releases are immediately posted to ADC. Some never get posted; all eventually are mailed to registered developers.

It has not been posted to prevent leaks, and for a variety of reasons. The fact that it's already already being pirated is a very weak argument, and completely irrelevant.

The latest seeded release is perfectly suitable for developer compatibility testing, and other large developers like Adobe and Microsoft get needed seeds via other, more direct, channels.

7B85 is 10.3 GM.
     
Busemann
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:33 AM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
First post, thanks for all welcomes!

Now the question. I have a big doubt:
if 7B85 is GM why has not been posted to all the paying developers like always was done for the past GM releases.....Don't say to prevent piracy, because it is already available around.......

Perhaps they are waiting so they don't release it before its 100% sure GM.

EDIT: first time two posts were added while writing a post
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:34 AM
 
Originally posted by Busemann:
Perhaps they are waiting so they don't release it before its 100% sure GM.
It is 100% sure GM, as much as any release ever is.
     
Busemann
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:38 AM
 
Originally posted by piracy:

It has not been posted to prevent leaks, and for a variety of reasons. The fact that it's already already being pirated is a very weak argument, and completely irrelevant.
?
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Busemann:
?
That's like saying "Well, people are already stealing cars, so we might as well make auto theft legal, and hey, why not just leave all the keys in the ignition, too."

Again: it was not posted for a VARIETY of reasons, not the least of which was to prevent leaks, especially casual ones, that routinely occur via ADC. That is a FACT. Take it or leave it.

ADC does not exist to seed every build - far from it - nor does it exist to immediately post GM builds online for developers. It exists to provide the resources developers need to develop for Mac OS X, one of which is software seeding, and the currently seeded build serves that purpose just fine for 99% of all developers. Those who have special or more specific needs are handled individually.
     
ElMac  (op)
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:45 AM
 
Originally posted by piracy:
That's like saying "Well, people are already stealing cars, so we might as well make auto theft legal, and hey, why not just leave all the keys in the ignition, too."

Again: it was not posted for a VARIETY of reasons, not the least of which was to prevent leaks, especially casual ones, that routinely occur via ADC. That is a FACT. Take it or leave it.
If there are a VARIETY of reasons I would like to ear one more....

Thanks,
El Mac
     
ElMac  (op)
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:53 AM
 
Originally posted by piracy:

The latest seeded release is perfectly suitable for developer compatibility testing, and other large developers like Adobe and Microsoft get needed seeds via other, more direct, channels.

Well, it could be perfect for development, but as a developer I don't install it in my primary development box, as I would need to do a new clean install for the final release..... This is the worse situation at all. Because you know from testing that the 10.3 is good for developing and has a lot of improvements and things that finally work but you cannot install it as it is not the final.

I don't understand your argument at all......
El Mac
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:55 AM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
Well, it could be perfect for development, but as a developer I don't install it in my primary development box, as I would need to do a new clean install for the final release..... This is the worse situation at all. Because you know from testing that the 10.3 is good for developing and has a lot of improvements and things that finally work but you cannot install it as it is not the final.

I don't understand your argument at all......
Then you do not understand the purpose of ADC at all.

It is not essential, for the purposes of ADC, that developers immediately have access to the GM build of every last thing. (Note I said IMMEDIATELY. They will get access, either online or via mail, eventually, but immediate access is not necessary.)

If you feel that, as a developer, you have specific and compelling needs for a different and/or newer build of Panther, you should contact WWDR.

None, of this, of course, changes the fact that 7B85 is 10.3 GM.
( Last edited by piracy; Oct 7, 2003 at 12:03 PM. )
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 11:57 AM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
If there are a VARIETY of reasons I would like to ear one more....

Thanks,
1. Unnecessary to seed developers with the GM build at this time.

2. Not wanting to reveal an early release of 10.3 for competitive reasons.

3. Not wanting to reveal an early release of 10.3 for product sales reasons.

4. Preventing leaks via ADC; the fact that there are leaks elsewhere is utterly irrelevant.

5. Costs and time required for doing an unnecessary seed.

6. Timing and focus of WWDR representatives on other work.

7. Etc.
     
ElMac  (op)
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:08 PM
 
Originally posted by piracy:
1. Unnecessary to seed developers with the GM build at this time.

2. Not wanting to reveal an early release of 10.3 for competitive reasons.

3. Not wanting to reveal an early release of 10.3 for product sales reasons.

4. Preventing leaks via ADC; the fact that there are leaks elsewhere is utterly irrelevant.

5. Costs and time required for doing an unnecessary seed.

6. Timing and focus of WWDR representatives on other work.

7. Etc.
The first is clearly not a reason not to release it as in the past was done.....
The 2-3-4 are again this leak reason.....
5 and 6 are the same reason and it is the only additional reason you are bringing here. A very flaible one as the seed was already prepared for other (the big developers), so it was only not posted to the ADC; should I guess 15 minutes time of one people??

So at the end only one (questionable) more reason....I still retain my doubt.....
El Mac
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:12 PM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
So at the end only one (questionable) more reason....I still retain my doubt.....
Fine. Retain your doubt. You're incorrect.

I've given you several factual reasons, and because you doubt them or assert they are the same when they aren't, does not make them incorrect.

You'll find out soon enough that Panther 7B85 is in fact Mac OS X 10.3 GM, and the reason you doubt that 7B85 is GM (not having been seeded to ADC) will be proven incorrect, and therefore invalid.
     
Disgruntled Head of C-3PO
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:23 PM
 
Originally posted by piracy:
7B85 is 10.3 GM.
You should just make that your sig to save yourself typing it over and over.
"Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough!"
     
sanity assassin
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:25 PM
 
Apparently tomorrow is the day we'll find out when it's released. Haha, more contention.
Rockstar Games - better than reality.
     
ElMac  (op)
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:30 PM
 
Originally posted by piracy:
Fine. Retain your doubt. You're incorrect.

I've given you several factual reasons, and because you doubt them or assert they are the same when they aren't, does not make them incorrect.

You'll find out soon enough that Panther 7B85 is in fact Mac OS X 10.3 GM, and the reason you doubt that 7B85 is GM (not having been seeded to ADC) will be proven incorrect, and therefore invalid.
You have a strange reasoning. The only difference between some of your reasons is that you changed some words, but the substance was the same.

So with the last sentence you are saying that it will be posted on ADC then.....
So why instead you were saying before that the posting is not necessary.... really there is something strange in your reasoning.....

El Mac
     
Busemann
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:37 PM
 
Originally posted by piracy:
7B85 is 10.3 GM.
I wish I had a dime every time you wrote that..
     
Jim_MDP
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:38 PM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
Well, it could be perfect for development, but as a developer I don't install it in my primary development box, as I would need to do a new clean install for the final release.....

Because you know from testing that the 10.3 is good for developing and has a lot of improvements and things that finally work but you cannot install it as it is not the final.
These strike me as the most bizzare statements from a developer.
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:42 PM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
You have a strange reasoning. The only difference between some of your reasons is that you changed some words, but the substance was the same.

So with the last sentence you are saying that it will be posted on ADC then.....
So why instead you were saying before that the posting is not necessary.... really there is something strange in your reasoning.....

No, I'm not saying that it will or will not be posted on ADC. I am saying that it's NOT NECESSARY for it to be posted, now or in the future[1], on ADC for it to be the GM release:

1. Soon enough, you'll find out that 7B85 is GM. Via the retail CDs in the boxes, for example.

2. Therefore, it will have been possible for 7B85 to be the GM release WITHOUT it having been posted to ADC at this time.

Follow?

[1] Note: WWDR may decide to post it at some point in the future, e.g. after retail release. It will certainly be mailed, and may also be posted online.
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:43 PM
 
Originally posted by Busemann:
I wish I had a dime every time you wrote that..
You're not the only one.

If I had a dime for every time I said 4K78 is 10.0 GM, 5G64 is 10.1 GM, 6C115 is 10.2 GM, and 7B85 is 10.3 GM, I'd be a rich, albeit repetitive, person.
     
Telusman
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:45 PM
 
I think ElMac rode the short bus to the forums...

What Piracy is saying is that the seed will be released in due time, however for the moment it is not nesscary that developers use this particular seed, possibly because the improvments in this build which is GM, is not an improvment that increases the operability or functionality over a past build that was released, ergo your developmental processes will not be interrupted if your a build or two behind.

If your bug hasn't been addressed in the latest build released on ADC you should send in another bug report, and or wait patiently until which time the GM has been given to you to use.

Piracy makes a lot of sense if you actually read his post and rationalize with the reasons. If it was a developmental requirement (say it fixed a massive operational glitch) for all developers to have the Golden Master, then it would have been released already, but it's obviously not, so it will be relased in a timely fashion, But for the moment, hurry up and wait is the scheme you should probably be working under.

-Telusman



Originally posted by ElMac:
You have a strange reasoning. The only difference between some of your reasons is that you changed some words, but the substance was the same.

So with the last sentence you are saying that it will be posted on ADC then.....
So why instead you were saying before that the posting is not necessary.... really there is something strange in your reasoning.....

"No ma'am i'm not angry at you, I'm angry at the cruel twist of fate that directed your call to my extension..."
     
Lakercj
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:50 PM
 
hey guys
unfortuanately its already been leaked with out an ADC seed, must be an inside job, lol
Chris
     
ElMac  (op)
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Oct 7, 2003, 12:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Jim_MDP:
These strike me as the most bizzare statements from a developer.
Not too much. With a little bit of experience you can discover that normally upgrading your primary box with beta version not always is a good choice. Sometimes it just happen that you may screw up your computer (for development, for normal user is less critical in reality) and recovering it requires a lot of work (if it is the computer used for development it has a lot of stuff on it). Normally releases by Apple that are not final cannot be uninstalled completely in Mac OS X without erasing and installing everything from scratch. If you are a developer you should know that......Probably you are not......

So at the end the first rule for developers is never install a beta release that cannot be uninstalled.... like the 7B85 if it is not GM......

Well we will see, I hope Piracy is correct, I only have this doubt at the moment......
El Mac
     
ElMac  (op)
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Telusman:

If your bug hasn't been addressed in the latest build released on ADC you should send in another bug report, and or wait patiently until which time the GM has been given to you to use.

This vision of the developer who just test it's program and submit bugs to Apple is a little bit limited. The 10.3 is a radical change, so for a lot of developers it is a version on which you need it with all the new libraries, tools, frameworks to develop for it..... This means, that you need to work on it, not only to do some testing for cosmetic bugs like most of the people in this forum do.......But to compile and use the new tools for your development that cannot be used in the 10.2
But using it is in constrast with the rule # 1 I exposed earlier......

The dilemma can only be solved by having soon the 10.3 final..... Not so difficult to understand why developers need the final soon and before the others.....
El Mac
     
chris v
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:15 PM
 
Ah, the lonely life of Piracy.

Look folks, the point he's trying to make here, is that if there's no known bugs that need to be squashed, and they plan on making no changes to the build before releasing it, there is no need for Apple to release the build to developers. It would be nice of them, so that developers could test their own software, but for Apple, there is no compelling reason, if it is indeed GM.

Give the guy a break.

CV

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
CharlesS
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:20 PM
 
Originally posted by ElMac:
Sometimes it just happen that you may screw up your computer (for development, for normal user is less critical in reality) and recovering it requires a lot of work (if it is the computer used for development it has a lot of stuff on it).
So install it on an external FireWire drive and leave your 10.2.8 system alone.

Ticking sound coming from a .pkg package? Don't let the .bom go off! Inspect it first with Pacifist. Macworld - five mice!
     
Hash
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:25 PM
 

1. Soon enough, you'll find out that 7B85 is GM. Via the retail CDs in the boxes, for example.

2. Therefore, it will have been possible for 7B85 to be the GM release WITHOUT it having been posted to ADC at this time.

Follow?
There is no any logic in it..because to follow it, someone has to do impossible - jump into future, open retail boxes of Panther *which are not yet sold of course - and check the build version. So, speaking logically, there should not be any "therefore"... 2 is valid ONLY IF 1 is valid, and checking 1 is impossible (at least without time machine). Which again returns us to the basic premise of the talk that there is no arguments except slightly hysterical "85 is GM", "take it or leave it"
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Hash:
There is no any logic in it..because to follow it, someone has to do impossible - jump into future, open retail boxes of Panther *which are not yet sold of course - and check the build version. So, speaking logically, there should not be any "therefore"... 2 is valid ONLY IF 1 is valid, and checking 1 is impossible (at least without time machine). Which again returns us to the basic premise of the talk that there is no arguments except slightly hysterical "85 is GM", "take it or leave it"
Yes, it's perfectly logical.

7B85 is the GM. Some here won't believe that until they open up the boxes and see it. That will, in fact, happen. No time machine needed. At that point, people will say "Oh, sh*t, 7B85 really is GM. Huh, whaddaya know." And 7B85 didn't even need to be posted to ADC for it to happen![1]

[1] ADC members will get it via some channel, as I said, be it online in the future or via mail.
     
Hash
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:32 PM
 
Originally posted by piracy:
Yes, it's perfectly logical.

7B85 is the GM. Some here won't believe that until they open up the boxes and see it. That will, in fact, happen. No time machine needed. At that point, people will say "Oh, sh*t, 7B85 really is GM. Huh, whaddaya know." And 7B85 didn't even need to be posted to ADC for it to happen![1]

[1] ADC members will get it via some channel, as I said, be it online in the future or via mail.
no, its not logical, since, i repeat, no one cant check the boxes. Therefore, there is no logic in it, cause it lacks proof and a possiblity of validating it by facts. There is no logic, only your assumption, which maybe correct, maybe not.
     
piracy
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Oct 7, 2003, 01:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Hash:
no, its not logical, since, i repeat, no one cant check the boxes. Therefore, there is no logic in it, cause it lacks proof and a possiblity of validating it by facts. There is no logic, only your assumption, which maybe correct, maybe not.
Just because you can't check the boxes yourself doesn't mean they don't exist, and that 7B85 isn't what's inside of them.

Once release rolls around and that's the case, it will become clear that was the case currently, and all without a time machine! Egads!
     
Xeo
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Oct 7, 2003, 03:15 PM
 
We don't need another thread debating this. Use the other thread if you want.
     
   
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