Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > The Official MacNN COVID-19 Thread

The Official MacNN COVID-19 Thread (Page 12)
Thread Tools
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2020, 04:57 PM
 
My local government is taking solid steps to rein in the horrendously large, sudden increase in cases - and deaths locally. Our governor, not so much. Texas had 4000 new cases YESTERDAY.

If (and that’s a big if) every locality takes strong measures to “un open” everything that was recently opened, I think there’s a possibility that this second wave will crest quickly. Otherwise, it’s going to be a long, deadly summer.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2020, 05:25 PM
 
The California governor has ordered mandatory mask use in public places. We've also seen a slow-but-steady increase in daily cases. Which have reached about 4K per day.

If he follows past patterns, the Gov will rely on persuasion rather than enforcement. Allowing counties & cities to enforce it if they choose.

The annoying thing is, it now appears a shutdown isn't necessary. If everyone follows good practices (masks & social distancing around people, frequent hand washing & disinfect touched surfaces) it looks like enough to keep it under control. But too many scoffers don't believe it's real until they're in the ICU.

The good news is karma is catching up. The scoffers are increasingly infecting each other. At least, that is my impression. Cases among scoffers should be counted separately, because those are voluntary.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2020, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
My local government is taking solid steps to rein in the horrendously large, sudden increase in cases - and deaths locally. Our governor, not so much. Texas had 4000 new cases YESTERDAY.
I thought your governor issued orders preventing local authorities to do anything on their own?
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2020, 06:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Germany just got the “official” COVID tracing app this last Tuesday, after a delay attributed in part to completely tearing down the initial concept and switching to a decentralised, fully anonymised structure proposed by the Chaos Computer Club and other privacy advocates.

They even posted the entire source code on github a few weeks ago for public scrutiny.

That is *not* how such endeavours are usually undertaken here.

I saw an interview with a visibly shaken CCC guy saying that, from their point of view, there were absolutely no relevant issues that spoke against installing and using this state-developed app. “This is very difficult for me to say.”
Meanwhile in the UK, our government followed up the previously summarised debacle by announcing they had been speaking to Apple and Google to get the new decentralised app working ASAP. This prompted Apple to publicly state: "You haven't spoken to us at all." It then became apparent that NHSX, the team who were in charge of the (£11m) failed app, were actively pressuring people not to support other apps that were being developed in case they prevented people from downloading theirs.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2020, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I thought your governor issued orders preventing local authorities to do anything on their own?
Yeah, that's the way his order read. Then, instead of leading, he sidestepped the issue and made it look like that was his idea all along. Sure.....

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 8, 2020, 03:14 PM
 
Those socialist face-mask rules are a real infringement on life. In France, a commie bus driver has been murdered over them.
French prosecutors have charged two men with attempted murder after a bus driver was assaulted and left brain dead for refusing to let a group of people who were not wearing face masks board the bus.
Prosecutors also charged another 2 men with lesser charges. Yes, that's correct - the fearless defenders of facial freedom needed four men to subdue one socialist. They're in their 20s and he was in his 50s, so equal numbers were required. No doubt they also support religious types who insist on beards, and women who insist on masks. True defenders of facial freedom through-and-through.
Face masks remain mandatory on public transport in France to slow the spread of Covid-19, which has claimed nearly 30,000 lives in the country.
Oh right, the bus driver was following the law. And trying to protect the other passengers.

I would charge them with successful murder. There was no 'attempted' about it - the driver will never wake up.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 11, 2020, 01:00 PM
 
The driver died the rest of the way. It sounds like the family agreed with doctors to pull the plug. Charges are expected to be upgraded on the 4 yahoos, along with a pal who tried to hide them.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 12, 2020, 02:44 AM
 
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 12, 2020, 08:48 PM
 
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2020, 01:45 AM
 
He’s totally going to get kicked out of the Mortal Kombat Tournament for that. Goro doesn’t play around.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 01:01 AM
 
From the “creepy mask photoshop” files...

     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 09:22 AM
 
also in the defeating the purpose category...
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 09:43 AM
 
Is that clear plastic or a breathable mesh?
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 12:02 PM
 
If it's plastic, there isn't much cloth to breath through.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 01:28 PM
 
I’m sure it never fogs up, and isn’t a slobber magnet.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 01:58 PM
 
I've seen better ones. Cloth, with a picture printed on it. No plastic to restrict breathing.

     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 02:16 PM
 
They did a much better job with the ‘shop on that tooth.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 06:47 PM
 
So, the administration released new guidance today, ordering hospitals to no longer report COVID-19 data to the CDC. They are to, instead, report data to Health and Human Services (HHS)

I guess, if you don’t like the numbers, you take control of the data?

I’ve seen opinions that it would actually be illegal for hospitals to not report to the CDC. So, I guess we’ll see how this latest fustercluck plays out.
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 15, 2020, 07:22 PM
 
I’m seeing numerous “survivor” patients now. Some are just deconditioned - their endurance has been sapped and they get tired from simple things...like blinking.

Others are now stroke survivors. Young ones.

A friend and therapist I’d worked with in the past died last week from COVID. Young, healthy, and then bam.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 01:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
So, the administration released new guidance today, ordering hospitals to no longer report COVID-19 data to the CDC. They are to, instead, report data to Health and Human Services (HHS)

I guess, if you don’t like the numbers, you take control of the data?

I’ve seen opinions that it would actually be illegal for hospitals to not report to the CDC. So, I guess we’ll see how this latest fustercluck plays out.
It’s not unreasonable to suspect shenanigans, but I feel those suspicions should be held in the context that HHS is already the CDC’s boss.

I’ll also add, government acts slowly. I’d be shocked if this wasn’t planned for a couple months. Gigantic federal databases don’t just pop out of the ether.

On top of this, I’m seeing headlines like “Coronavirus hospital data will now be sent to the Trump administration instead of the CDC”. HHS is the Trump administration but the CDC isn’t?

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/14/p...cdc/index.html
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 09:27 AM
 
The two companies hospitals are now directed to send info to are owned by Trump donators. In case any hospital feels like being a rebel and sending to cdc, the top drug Remdesivir has been stockpiled by Trump admin and only accessible via request.

So the admin is actively strongarming hospitals now.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The two companies hospitals are now directed to send info to are owned by Trump donators. In case any hospital feels like being a rebel and sending to cdc, the top drug Remdesivir has been stockpiled by Trump admin and only accessible via request.

So the admin is actively strongarming hospitals now.
How are the people orchestrating this not in jail?
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 10:26 AM
 
The CDC maintained an online dashboard where all the data they collected was made public for all to see, examine, research, etc. As of this morning, that service has gone dark. HHH has nothing set-up to make the data they are now collecting public. The data is now black-boxed.

Apparently, the new HHH database system was created by a private company, who was awarded a no-bid contract back in April. As far as anyone can tell, it's basically identical to the system the CDC already had.

This is all about cooking the numbers to back-up one man's ego.
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
How are the people orchestrating this not in jail?
Who would prosecute? Bill Barr?
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 10:27 AM
 
Because we're finding out that "illegal" doesn't really mean anything when the ones doing the illegal stuff are the ones that get to choose what laws are enforced.
     
Brien
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 08:28 PM
 
Over/under on things closing back down on a meaningful scale?
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 16, 2020, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
On top of this, I’m seeing headlines like “Coronavirus hospital data will now be sent to the Trump administration instead of the CDC”. HHS is the Trump administration but the CDC isn’t?
The CDC has a larger degree of autonomy than HHS, because it is more removed from direct political control. Given that the move is clearly motivated by the Trump Administration’s aim to sideline the CDC and its experts, I think headlines like that correctly capture what is going on.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The two companies hospitals are now directed to send info to are owned by Trump donators. In case any hospital feels like being a rebel and sending to cdc, the top drug Remdesivir has been stockpiled by Trump admin and only accessible via request.

So the admin is actively strongarming hospitals now.
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
How are the people orchestrating this not in jail?
I’m taking this a bit at a time because work is in the way.

Why is there an issue with strongarming hospitals into providing numbers?

Everyone here seems to take the pandemic seriously. Why isn’t everybody horrified we’re how many months into this and there are still hospitals not submitting data?

You bet I’d strongarm them. How about a fine on top of it? As someone who takes the pandemic seriously I find a hospital not submitting their numbers at this point to be appalling.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 03:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Why is there an issue with strongarming hospitals into providing numbers?

Everyone here seems to take the pandemic seriously. Why isn’t everybody horrified we’re how many months into this and there are still hospitals not submitting data?
The issue as I understand it is not that some hospitals are not submitting any data, but rather that the Trump Administration is sidelining the CDC by this move, because the CDC's recommendations go counter to what it would like to be true. If the CDC does not have the “official” data on the pandemic, it is very easy to dismiss their advice.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 03:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The issue as I understand it is not that some hospitals are not submitting any data, but rather that the Trump Administration is sidelining the CDC by this move, because the CDC's recommendations go counter to what it would like to be true. If the CDC does not have the “official” data on the pandemic, it is very easy to dismiss their advice.
If all hospitals are submitting data, then nobody is getting strongarmed, because all the hospitals are already doing what’s required to get federal resources.

However, the official line from HHS is only 85% of hospitals are submitting data. The Chicago Tribune quotes an unnamed source from the CDC who claims it’s only 65%.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chi...outputType=amp

Isn’t strongarming hospitals who aren’t submitting exactly the right thing to do?


The sideline question deserves attention, but as I said, I can only do one bit at a time right now.

Edit: the short form is if there was a decision to sideline the CDC, it was made in March. This contract was awarded on the 5th of April (as Thorzdad noted). I’m not saying this disproves the accusation, but it can’t be said the decision was based on anything the CDC has said or done in the last few months, because the decision predates that.

Edit 2: I also want to add the head of the CDC said they’re okay with this. One can argue he was forced to say that, but if that’s the case, then it calls into question the CDC’s alleged autonomy.
( Last edited by subego; Jul 17, 2020 at 05:43 AM. )
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 06:49 AM
 
Some added information I think is relevant to analysis of the situation.

While this is the largest contract TeleTracking has had with the government, by more than an order of magnitude, and as Thorzdad notes it’s a no-bid contract, the company’s done business with the government under both Bush and Obama. They didn’t come totally out of nowhere.

I may have missed it, but I haven’t seen the owner’s donation record mentioned anywhere.

Hospitals can opt-out of using TeleTracking. By my reading of the guidelines, there are ways HHS could hold up this process, but there‘s an option where it’d be very difficult for HHS to put up any meaningful resistance to a Hospital wanting to opt-out.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 07:39 AM
 
No hospitals are refusing to submit data. They are being strongarmed to no longer submit to the CDC and submit their data directly to HHH.

The only way hospitals can opt-out of submitting their data directly is if they submit to their state system. The state will then submit the accumulated data to HHH. But, the state must have an approved system in-place for that to happen.
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
Thorzdad  (op)
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 07:47 AM
 
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 10:04 AM
 
If you are on facebook, you really should subscribe to Heather Cox Richardson. She has a way of connecting the dots.

https://www.facebook.com%2Fheatherco...50568425087210

for the zuck haters:
July 15, 2020 (Wednesday)

As the coronavirus continues to ravage the country, the way the government will collect data about Covid-19 cases changed today. On March 29, Vice President Mike Pence asked hospital administrators to report data about coronavirus through three different systems: the network provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (the CDC), HHS Protect, and TeleTracking. Last Friday, the Department of Health and Human Services announced that, beginning today, hospitals should report daily information about coronavirus cases not through the CDC system, which has been in place for 15 years, but rather through the other two.

This move has met with widespread condemnation as observers worry that Trump is trying to take control of information about the coronavirus in order to conceal it. In Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis has hidden information this way, and Trump has made it clear he believes that if only he downplays the numbers, he can convince people to go back to work and resurrect the economy.

But there is another angle to this change that seems to me likely to be at least as attractive to the president as control over data information. That primary issue is money.

HHS Protect is developed by Palantir Technologies, a data-mining firm that works with the Pentagon and law enforcement agencies, including Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Peter Thiel, a billionaire Trump supporter, co-founded the company, which last week confidentially filed paperwork with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission to go public. An initial public offering (IPO) would have made bucketloads of money in any case, but a federal contract to compile coronavirus information is a sweet addition to its portfolio.

The TeleTracking system also raises suspicions of a financial deal. On June 3, the top Democrat on the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions, Senator Patty Murray (D-WA), wrote to the director of the CDC, Dr. Robert Redfield and the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response at the Department of Health and Human Services, Dr. Robert P. Kadlec, to ask why HHS had awarded a $10 million no-bid contract to create this data system that duplicated the one the CDC already had. Why indeed?

There is, in the letter shifting data collection, a peculiarly nasty stick. Underlined on the first page of the instructions is that “We will no longer be sending out one-time requests for data to aid in the distribution of Remdesivir or any other treatments or supplies. This daily reporting is the only mechanism used for the distribution calculations, and the daily [sic] is needed daily to ensure accurate calculations.”

Remdesivir is one of the two drugs proven effective at combatting Covid-19. Two weeks ago, the Trump administration bought up almost all of the world’s supply of the drug for the next three months.

The rest of the world was outraged at this purchase, but at the time HHS Secretary Alex Azar defended the move by saying “To the extent possible, we want to ensure that any American patient who needs remdesivir can get it. The Trump administration is doing everything in our power to learn more about life-saving therapeutics for Covid-19 and secure access to these options for the American people.”

Now, it appears, in order to get access to it, hospitals will need to use the private data systems the administration supports.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If all hospitals are submitting data, then nobody is getting strongarmed, because all the hospitals are already doing what’s required to get federal resources.
It seems to me you are ignoring the whole context and are leaping to conclusions in other places. Just earlier this week, a member of the Trump administration (with no subject matter expertise) wrote an op-ed for a large newspaper decrying Dr. Fauci. And the vice president is on TV advising against using CDC guidelines when deciding to open schools. Given the context, I find it impossible to ignore the political context.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
However, the official line from HHS is only 85% of hospitals are submitting data. The Chicago Tribune quotes an unnamed source from the CDC who claims it’s only 65%.
Is it better to replace the well-established system to count cases with the CDC in the middle of a pandemic with a new system that none of the hospitals currently know how to use? If this were Ebola and we'd be talking about a handful of cases, perhaps. Or if this were the Obama or George H. W. Bush administration, we'd have more trust that what is going on is a good faith effort to deal with a pandemic.

That does not mean the CDC and its procedures can't be improved. But I am quite certain that part of that is to be serious about supporting the CDC with guidance, funds and the necessary freedom to base its recommendations on science.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Isn’t strongarming hospitals who aren’t submitting exactly the right thing to do?
This isn't about strongarming hospitals, it is about sidelining the CDC because it says inconvenient truths the Trump Administration does not want to hear.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit 2: I also want to add the head of the CDC said they’re okay with this. One can argue he was forced to say that, but if that’s the case, then it calls into question the CDC’s alleged autonomy.
The CDC is not completely autonomous, but given its make-up it is more autonomous.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If you are on facebook, you really should subscribe to Heather Cox Richardson. She has a way of connecting the dots.

https://www.facebook.com%2Fheatherco...50568425087210

for the zuck haters:
Peter Thiel is involved, color me suprised. (Needless to say, he campaigned for Trump.)
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 17, 2020, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It seems to me you are ignoring the whole context and are leaping to conclusions in other places. Just earlier this week, a member of the Trump administration (with no subject matter expertise) wrote an op-ed for a large newspaper decrying Dr. Fauci. And the vice president is on TV advising against using CDC guidelines when deciding to open schools. Given the context, I find it impossible to ignore the political context.

To which I repeat...

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: the short form is if there was a decision to sideline the CDC, it was made in March. This contract was awarded on the 5th of April (as Thorzdad noted). I’m not saying this disproves the accusation, but it can’t be said the decision was based on anything the CDC has said or done in the last few months, because the decision predates that.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 18, 2020, 02:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
No hospitals are refusing to submit data.
I’ve got two sources agreeing the opposite is true. I think those sources suck, and shouldn’t be trusted, but much as I’d like to say they’re full of shit, I can’t do that without a source backing it up.

Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
They are being strongarmed to no longer submit to the CDC and submit their data directly to HHH.
All HHS has to do to force hospitals to submit to them is say “we are the sole agency accepting submissions”. Once this is done, the CDC is no longer the authorized recipient, and as such, will just hand the data they receive over to HHS.

This would happen regardless of whether further strongarm tactics were employed.

There is only one federal database of this information. The choices are to submit the data to it, or not. I have no issue with strongarming hospitals to submit to it. While I might prefer this database be instead under the control of the CDC, that’s an entirely different question than whether I feel hospitals are obligated to submit to it. Of course they are. It’s not like there’s another option.



To clarify my earlier point, I was only addressing whether hospitals are required to use TeleTracking, and I qualified it as such. If a hospital decides not to use TeleTracking, then yes, they must still submit to HHS.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 18, 2020, 02:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Is it better to replace the well-established system to count cases with the CDC in the middle of a pandemic with a new system that none of the hospitals currently know how to use?
This depends on how crummy the old system is, no?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 18, 2020, 05:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
If you are on facebook, you really should subscribe to Heather Cox Richardson. She has a way of connecting the dots.

https://www.facebook.com%2Fheatherco...50568425087210

for the zuck haters:
That Palintir runs the HHS database is useful info. Thank you.

Everything else runs afoul of the two points I keep making.

1) The decision to move this to HHS was made over three months ago. It is literally impossible for anything the CDC has done or said in the last three months to have had any bearing on the decision.

2) Forcing hospitals to submit their data should be supported by anyone who takes the pandemic seriously. That all hospitals need to be submitting their data is self-evidently the best practice, and this isn’t changed by poor intention on the part of the data collector. That the data collector may wish to hide the data does not in any way change the obligation or responsibility of hospitals to submit.

Edit: a hospital failing to submit reduces the numbers. In other words, the more hospitals fail to submit, the less the administration needs to cook the books. Which is better... having every hospital submit and then letting HHS bear the responsibility of any malfeasance they perpetrate, or should hospitals give HHS cover by dint of not submitting?


Is it possible Trump intends to cook the books? No question. I would even consider it probable. However, the analysis needs to be made within the context of the above two points.
( Last edited by subego; Jul 18, 2020 at 06:21 AM. )
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 18, 2020, 10:10 AM
 
In lighter news, more shoops!

     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 18, 2020, 04:32 PM
 
San Antonio, and Bexar County are not just reporting data collected from hospitals, they report that data publicly for all to read.

Yesterday there was a HUGE report. It turns out that 5,501 “new” cases were added to the local lists because the county health agency had a substantial backlog of test reports; “only” 691 were actually “new” cases.

Our COVID death toll (Bexar County) is at 240. One of those numbers was a friend of mine who died late last week...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 19, 2020, 01:11 AM
 
That’s horrible.

One of the options provided by HHS is for a hospital to post the numbers on the hospital’s website. I consider this the ideal method.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 19, 2020, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
To which I repeat...
You added that as a side remark whereas I think this is the main story. Of course, the efforts to sideline the CDC did not start yesterday. Just today The Hill reports that the Trump administration wants to cut funds for the CDC, contact tracing and testing by “billions of dollars” (no specific number was given in the article) — in the middle of a pandemic.

No organization is perfect, including the CDC, but shooting the CDC in the leg and then complaining it can't run a marathon is very disingenuous by the Trump Administration.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This depends on how crummy the old system is, no?
… and how realistic it is to install a better alternative during the course of a pandemic. Especially if the effort is motivated by getting nicer numbers it seems. (Trump as usual says the quiet part out loud, he has repeated several times that he thinks more testing will unfairly lead to higher case numbers.)

Moreover, without knowing how hospitals are supposed to report cases, we should be cautious to lay blame with the CDC or the hospitals. I'm speculating, but perhaps hospitals are supposed to report their Covid-19 case numbers to the relevant state authorities who are then responsible to forward the numbers to the CDC? Perhaps the procedure depends on the state? If the problem is that hospitals do not report their numbers as they should, laying the blame at the feet of the CDC is misguided, I think. Especially if there is ample evidence that this is just a pretext used by the Trump Administration.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 19, 2020, 08:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Our COVID death toll (Bexar County) is at 240. One of those numbers was a friend of mine who died late last week...
I'm sorry for your loss, Glenn.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
San Antonio, and Bexar County are not just reporting data collected from hospitals, they report that data publicly for all to read.

Yesterday there was a HUGE report. It turns out that 5,501 “new” cases were added to the local lists because the county health agency had a substantial backlog of test reports; “only” 691 were actually “new” cases.
That's one reason why a lot of sources use 7-day averages and take patterns like that into account. In many places there is a backlog that accumulates over the weekend and gets cleared on Monday, so you have regular lulls and spikes — just in case modeling wasn't difficult enough.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 19, 2020, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You added that as a side remark whereas I think this is the main story.
That is false. We agree on what constitutes the main story, which is the question of to what extent Trump is attempting to sideline the CDC.

I am operating under the assumption there is no intent here to antagonize, however replies such as what I quote above, or “you are ignoring the whole context and are leaping to conclusions” do not serve this intent.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 19, 2020, 08:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I am operating under the assumption there is no intent here to antagonize, however replies such as what I quote above, or “you are ignoring the whole context and are leaping to conclusions” do not serve this intent.
I propose not to go down that route. I don’t want that this discussion deteriorates and rather than discuss about the topic at hand, we end up analyzing each others sentences for perceived slights. I did not and do not mean to impugn or insult you in my posts, and I think we’ll do better if you give me the benefit of the doubt and think of my posts as attempts to discuss in good faith.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 20, 2020, 01:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I propose not to go down that route. I don’t want that this discussion deteriorates and rather than discuss about the topic at hand, we end up analyzing each others sentences for perceived slights. I did not and do not mean to impugn or insult you in my posts, and I think we’ll do better if you give me the benefit of the doubt and think of my posts as attempts to discuss in good faith.
I reject this proposal.

Disinterest in addressing perceived slights is the opposite of arguing in good faith.

I have been inordinately patient about this issue, which permeates every single debate we’ve had for years now. This does not happen with anyone else here.

It is best we no longer discuss contentious issues.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 20, 2020, 09:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I reject this proposal.

Disinterest in addressing perceived slights is the opposite of arguing in good faith.
I'm not disinterested in how my arguments are perceived nor am I asking you to be disinterested, I'm just saying that rather than interpret what I wrote in the worst possible way (e. g. as a personal attack or at least a swipe against you), you add a dollop of grace and assume I am arguing in good faith? At least in my mind I'm doing the same when it comes to your posts.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 21, 2020, 05:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I'm not disinterested in how my arguments are perceived nor am I asking you to be disinterested, I'm just saying that rather than interpret what I wrote in the worst possible way (e. g. as a personal attack or at least a swipe against you), you add a dollop of grace and assume I am arguing in good faith? At least in my mind I'm doing the same when it comes to your posts.
I began this tangent by stating “I am operating under the assumption there is no intent here to antagonize“.

In other words, that I assume good faith is my very premise, and it has been met with chastisement for interpreting things in the worst possible way.

I must admit this is the other aspect of our discussions I find difficult. The replies I get often have a comical level of disconnect from what I’ve actually said. In this case, what I have said has been taken as the literal opposite.

I don’t assume ill intent here either, and I wholeheartedly apologize for my earlier accusation of a disinterest in good faith, but good faith does little to make these incoherent exchanges palatable.

The same applies to the frequent posts which make me the subject rather than my argument, counter to the fundamental rule of civil debate.

My entire point is behavior like this does not serve your good faith. I would not have mentioned it were it not interfering with the good faith you otherwise exhibit, and I very much desire to engage you with.

I admire this good faith, as well as your vast intelligence. An unbridgeable communication gap would be to my detriment.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:58 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,