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Improving this forum (Page 4)
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besson3c  (op)
Clinically Insane
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May 21, 2008, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
That's because
Besson is

*sigh* it's a good thing this place has plenty of armchair juries to succeed Kevin's departure.
     
MacosNerd
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May 21, 2008, 08:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
*sigh* it's a good thing this place has plenty of armchair juries to succeed Kevin's departure.
As well as ca$h's gift of beating a dead horse and whining
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
As well as ca$h's gift of beating a dead horse and whining
Do you intend to actually respond to anything I've written in here with something of substance, or should I just ignore you within this thread from here on out?
     
rickey939
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May 21, 2008, 08:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
*sigh* it's a good thing this place has plenty of armchair juries to succeed Kevin's departure.
What happened to Kevin?
     
reader50
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May 21, 2008, 08:26 PM
 


Let's keep it civil, people.
     
Randman
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May 21, 2008, 08:33 PM
 
I still am waiting for a PM or posting to explain Zimphire/Kevin's departure/deportation.

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MacosNerd
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May 21, 2008, 09:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you intend to actually respond to anything I've written in here with something of substance
Well since this thread was created with whining in mind and there's such a lack of substance anyways you shouldn't be so thinned skinned.

or should I just ignore you within this thread from here on out?
Ignore away, I'm enjoying this thread way to much. I've said it before, if you have a problem with me, you can always ignore my posts.
     
subego
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May 21, 2008, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
What happened to Kevin?
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
I still am waiting for a PM or posting to explain Zimphire/Kevin's departure/deportation.

He took issue with some moderation not pertaining to himself. He got fed up and had a meltdown. He threatened to act like Rob (i.e. keep coming back despite bans), and said he'd make public things that moderators had said about users backstage.

The post with the threats lasted about five minutes and he was ganked shortly thereafter.
     
rickey939
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May 21, 2008, 10:03 PM
 
Soooooo, he really hasn't come back under a different name?
     
subego
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May 21, 2008, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
Soooooo, he really hasn't come back under a different name?

I think he did once that day, and was immediately banned.

I don't know of any other instances, and haven't noticed anyone with his unique style, but I have a proven track record of having no idea who the hell is who.
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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May 21, 2008, 10:27 PM
 
And like Dakar mentioned about three pages ago, multi-page content-less bantering in the regular Lounge has all but disappeared since then.

I think the biggest problem here is people caring too much. Can you really not go without MacNN for a week. Must you really try and contact the mods if you get banned? Who cares.

I've made quite a few joke accounts. Two of the April Fools accounts were mine, not to mention some "DeRailroader" accounts. All of them were banned as soon as the mods saw me posting with them. Was I pissed? Of course not. Who cares? In my seven years of being a member here, I've gotten an infraction once, maybe twice, and the mods have warned me a few times to cool off. Did I respond by bitching, whining, complaining, and posting all sorts of threads in the Feedback forum? No. A quick reply via PM with a promise to chill was my only response. It's quite possible to get along with the moderation here...I would consider myself a "veteran" member and I by no means feel that the mods are overbearing or unfair. Learn to live with them or GTFO. It's not hard.

And what about Railroader? Sure he's confrontational about a lot of things, but I feel like he's always respected a ban, like the month off he got when Kevin got the hammer. People that don't necessarily agree with the mods are capable of coping.
     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
In my seven years of being a member here, I've gotten an infraction once, maybe twice, and the mods have warned me a few times to cool off.
Warned you a few times ?

It must be nice.

My last ban came w/o any warning, although the infraction system was established. It came although I was told that bans wouldn't come w/o warning. It came although I didn't violate any rules.

So yeah, I'm ALL FOR warnings, but not for the sudden ban hammer for things that are NOT violating the rules.

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 11:11 PM
 
Laminar: I agree. Because of my lack of explanation, my bans were frustrating, but whatever, it's not the end of the world, I coped. The reason I'm trying to excuse myself by going on about not getting an explanation is not because I expect some sort of apology or concession for the Butthawk incident. That's history. What I'm trying to advocate for is less rigidity of the rules and less interpretation of them very literally as if they are legal documents, and more consideration of context and the basic underlying purpose of each respective rule.

There are a couple of things in the rules I disagree with, but this is minor stuff that I have no difficulty compromising over. The rules make sense for the most part, I both appreciate and respect them. However, I can't cite them because they are all pretty much common sense to me. To me, understanding their design leads to a more common sense approach to governing around here and less of a literal and by the book interpretation like I'm describing above. I'm advocating this, because I personally think that it will make the vibe here better and decrease the amount of bickering over the mundane nuances of the rules.
     
bradoesch
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May 21, 2008, 11:12 PM
 
It's been a while. . .

     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 11:28 PM
 
Worst "Request Denied" use evar.

-t
     
Randman
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May 22, 2008, 03:34 AM
 
Let Rickey do it, if not too old for it.

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Laminar
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May 22, 2008, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Warned you a few times ?

It must be nice.

My last ban came w/o any warning, although the infraction system was established. It came although I was told that bans wouldn't come w/o warning. It came although I didn't violate any rules.

So yeah, I'm ALL FOR warnings, but not for the sudden ban hammer for things that are NOT violating the rules.

-t
The warnings were never for the same thing twice, and one time, I slipped up after a warning, and got an immediate infraction.

Frankly, I feel that the mods DID use a lax interpretation of the rules in our cases, and did what they saw fit. I may or may not agree with actions taken against me, but who cares? What's done is done and I'm not shallow enough to need an apology or admission of wrongdoing to make me feel better about myself. If I was truly pissed, I'd leave, I wouldn't post three thousand times in the Feedback forum.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Laminar: I agree. Because of my lack of explanation, my bans were frustrating, but whatever, it's not the end of the world, I coped.
Well, you might have "coped," but you picked a crappy way to do it. Your "coping" involved starting a new nickname, coupled with constant (to this day) whining and asking for apologies. If you never ever mentioned butthawk again, I don't think anyone would be worse off because of it.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 22, 2008, 09:33 PM
 
When have I ever asked for an apology Laminar? Have I not made it abundantly clear that my intention is not to whine? Your gut feeling does not make it so, and while I realize that sometimes intentions don't match what people perceive, why not take my word over your gut feeling?
     
turtle777
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May 22, 2008, 09:37 PM
 
I think Laminar needs some good ass whipping temp-banning.

-t
     
Laminar
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May 23, 2008, 12:07 AM
 
I don't believe I've broken any rules, so I don't know why I'd be banned, but I can guarantee that I'd take it better than either of you two if I was.
     
turtle777
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May 23, 2008, 01:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I don't believe I've broken any rules, so I don't know why I'd be banned
Quoted for unintentional irony™

-t
     
rickey939
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May 23, 2008, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
Let Rickey do it, if not too old for it.
Ummm, sorry....not catching that one. I'm calling foul ball.
     
turtle777
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May 23, 2008, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
I'm calling foul ball.
Calling it WHAT ? Names ? Not here, buddy !

-t
     
Laminar
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May 25, 2008, 11:01 AM
 
It looks like banned members have a 5 digit countdown instead of stars. I'm guessing it's days - hours? I'd post a screenshot but I'm on a friend's computer right now. But Atomic Rooster is currently banned if you want to check it out.
     
Cold Warrior
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May 25, 2008, 11:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It looks like banned members have a 5 digit countdown instead of stars. I'm guessing it's days - hours? I'd post a screenshot but I'm on a friend's computer right now. But Atomic Rooster is currently banned if you want to check it out.
Yes, days and hours remaining on a temp ban. Permabans still have the lock stars.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 25, 2008, 12:03 PM
 
So, have we improved this forum yet?
     
turtle777
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May 25, 2008, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, have we improved this forum yet?
I have, see my new sig

-t
     
stigmittens
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May 27, 2008, 03:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Calm down, everyone. It's not Ragnarök today.

Any use of the board while your primary handle is banned is ban-evasion. Contacting staff via IM or email is not ban evasion. I once posted how to reach us to try and fix a ban if it were given in error. Ca$h found the instructions and tried them. Didn't work, we knew it was him.
I don't know what you are talking about, but I don't think that was me.

I know I'll be banned as soon as the mods realize who I am, but I'd like to point out WHY this forum is suffering and what can be done about it.

It's currently over-moderated. Mods are trigger happy, and temp ban first and ask questions later. Some bring up the point that it's like a ref in football, but it's not. If a ref consistently makes bad calls, they won't be a ref anymore. If a game seems biased, the fans will complain, and things will be checked out. Here, there are no checks and balances, only what the moderators/admins say, and anything to the contrary is 'whining' and thus banworthy. It's a catch22. If I respond to people who attack me, I'm fighting. If I report their posts when they're attacking me, I'm whining and being a pain in the ass. So what can you do? But the real problem is the banning mentality. I've come back multiple times without causing any problems, and posting anonymously, yet whenever I'm discovered, I am instantly banned. Is this 'right'?

I don't think it is, and obviously my perspective is biased, but I don't think it's right to ban anybody except spammers and people who threaten someone else physically. Banning someone 'forever' is so permanent, it is effectively murdering their personality and history here. I somewhat dislike Kevin. I have a strong dislike for Kilbey (oh nos ban me!), yet I don't think EITHER should be banned from these forums. What should happen is that when they circumvent rules, they should have been punished just like I was. I was blunt in my opinions, and I was honest in my posts. Did it piss some people off? Certainly. But that somehow translated into me getting the short end of the stick on several occasions. I was given a ban over 1 month long for calling a member by a username he had previously used for over THREE YEARS. What the hell? That's obviously stupid, and unfair. So by ignoring it, I was then stuck into 'bannination forever and ever and all eternity'. That's crap.

You should not be banning people forever. Unless someone is being EXTREMELY out of line, like talking about having sex with someone's sister, or butt****ing someone's wife, banning someone for 1 month is EXTREME overkill, and powertripping of the administration/mods. Do you think that teaches someone to behave? No. It does not. It teaches people to disrespect the people who run this place, and think that the rules are a complete joke, especially when people are banned/punished for not even BREAKING the rules, but purely being a smartass. It's stupid. Banning someone for a month for something harmless is like tasering someone for speeding. If you really wanted to make this place fair and even, you'd do something like have a rating system for offensive content:

Stage 1: Personal insults, being a dick but not technically breaking any rules like Kilbey is so good at doing: (24 hour ban)
Stage 2: Racism (on purpose, not the funny kind), acting like a complete asshole, etc: (3-5 day ban)
Stage 3: Impersonation, porn, or things of greater offensive magnitude: (2 week ban)
Stage 4: Threats, spammers, child molesters: (banned indefinitely)

Banning someone FOREVER, unless they've gravely offended someone by acting like a complete psychopath, is really uncalled for. Does it solve anything? Sure. It makes it easy to press a big red button, and prevent someone from ever being a part of this forum again. It removes any thought process, and any remotely interesting personalities. Some people have huge personalities, and they were the reason this place used to be great. Now... you've banned most of them, and the others left. Are you having fewer problems these days? Sure, probably, but it's also a hell of a lot more boring. Again, if you want to make this place truly great, you let big personalities come back. Keep people in check with relatively short ban periods which match the actual 'crime' they've committed, instead of some rolling "3 strikes and you're out of here forever for calling someone an asshole a few times" system like the current one.

Also, it might be a good idea to let people 'buy' their way back, or have to serve some sort of special punishments, or work release, which forces someone to do 3 photoshops of donkeys flying in airplanes a day, everyday, for 3 days, in order to come back. Or something along those sorts. Anyway, I'm sure I'll just be flamed since it's cool to be a hater, but whatever. The truth hurts. This place has lost it's luster, and it's NOT because of the members here, it's because of people who powertrip and ban interesting personalities from these forums.
     
turtle777
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May 27, 2008, 03:17 AM
 


I actually agree with most of what Rob said.

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 03:22 AM
 
I think stigmittens is Abe!!
     
turtle777
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May 27, 2008, 03:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think stigmittens is Abe!!
Rabe ?

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 03:27 AM
 
stigmittens: the problem seems to be that mods are sort of a stuck between a rock and a hard place, because several members demand this sort of order to the highest degree... They are quick to point out when people post to the wrong forum, or somebody's signature is too big, or whatever. Perhaps some people need order and restraints placed upon them in order to have fun in here?

If it were up to me, the new MacNN rules would be:

1) treat others as you want to be treated

2) don't be a dumbass, use your common sense in governing your behavior here. If you are short on common sense, prepare for moderator intervention

3) no porn, spam, and other stuff that reflects poorly upon the MacNN business. See #2.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 03:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Rabe ?

-t
Huh? I don't get it. Is this like hampstor?
     
turtle777
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May 27, 2008, 03:39 AM
 
I agree though, "butthawking someone's wife" should be grounds for eternal bannination

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 03:48 AM
 
I think that we need to create a Wikipedia entry for "butthawking"... After we define what it is. Nobody seems to know, and Butthawk is gone!
     
MacosNerd
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May 27, 2008, 07:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
stigmittens: the problem seems to be that mods are sort of a stuck between a rock and a hard place, because several members demand this sort of order to the highest degree... They are quick to point out when people post to the wrong forum, or somebody's signature is too big, or whatever. Perhaps some people need order and restraints placed upon them in order to have fun in here?
Don't forgot people who are quick to point out grammatical errors too.
     
peeb
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May 27, 2008, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If it were up to me, the new MacNN rules would be:

1) treat others as you want to be treated
The problem here is that how you want to be treated and how someone else wants to be treated may not line up...
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
2) don't be a dumbass, use your common sense in governing your behavior here. If you are short on common sense, prepare for moderator intervention
Oh great. Ever seen a definition of this that isn't 'think like I think'?

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
3) no porn, spam, and other stuff that reflects poorly upon the MacNN business. See #2.
Why do you think porn reflects poorly? For that matter, what is this 'other stuff' you speak of?
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
The problem here is that how you want to be treated and how someone else wants to be treated may not line up...

Oh great. Ever seen a definition of this that isn't 'think like I think'?


Why do you think porn reflects poorly? For that matter, what is this 'other stuff' you speak of?

I made no attempt to make my rules bulletproof, because I don't want them to be. In my opinion, we need a new culture of people that do not comb through rules and pick apart their semantic meaning, and instead simply rely on some common sense. When somebody steps outside of bounds, a mod simply explains why what was done is counter to the goals of the board as an equal, and if this person continues on as a child the mod goes from there...
     
peeb
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May 27, 2008, 01:21 PM
 
Sure, but you're assuming that all reasonable people will agree on what the rules should be - my point is that they will not, unless you want to define common sense simply as 'what Besson thinks'.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 01:33 PM
 
peeb: that sounds like a good idea!

There is far too much attention worrying about agreeing what the rules should be. The lounge should be treated just like a virtual hangout in real life. When you hang around your friends in real life, do you try to figure out what the lounging rules should be?
     
peeb
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May 27, 2008, 01:40 PM
 
I see where you're going Besson, and don't disagree, but the issue is that a virtual hangout does not have the social signals that a real one does. Lacking the critical feedback that a broken nose provides, some will continue to be jerks.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 01:44 PM
 
Then we ignore this individual or do something to sort of push him/her aside... There are no combination of rules that will prevent these sorts of problems, and obsessing and bickering over them only seems to make things worse - not to mention really puts a damper on fun threads.
     
MacosNerd
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May 27, 2008, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
There is far too much attention worrying about agreeing what the rules should be. The lounge should be treated just like a virtual hangout in real life. When you hang around your friends in real life, do you try to figure out what the lounging rules should be?
Instead of trying to change the lounge into your own image of what you think the lounge should be. Why not create one yourself.

I'm serious, you have very specific ideas on how the lounge should be run, and they generally run in conflict with what the admins/mods think.

It seems only a handful of people seem to have an issue with this place being overly moderated and having suffocating rules. Personally I'm surprised at how much leeway the mods do give most of us in pushing the envelope and you're asking to have little to no rules and let common sense be the rule of thumb. btw, the last time I looked in the real world too many people lacked common sense or had a very different definition of it.
     
Chuckit
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May 27, 2008, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
peeb: that sounds like a good idea!

There is far too much attention worrying about agreeing what the rules should be. The lounge should be treated just like a virtual hangout in real life. When you hang around your friends in real life, do you try to figure out what the lounging rules should be?
My friends and I don't try to figure out what our rules are — we already know. We just don't have the courtesy to write them out so people can have an idea what our community standards are. If somebody violates them, they're either warned, tempbanned or permabanned from my house.

Actually, it isn't all that different.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
starman
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May 27, 2008, 06:07 PM
 
Chuckit makes a good point. I don't think I need to explain it in detail.

Home - Twitter - Sig Wall-Retired - Flickr
     
turtle777
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May 27, 2008, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Chuckit makes a good point. I don't think I need to explain it in detail.


-t
     
peeb
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May 27, 2008, 06:11 PM
 
Exactly. There are a bunch of folks I would kick out if it were my house - but most of them are mods.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 06:12 PM
 
Chuckit: the difference is that it is clear as to what the boundaries are in your house, but even after all of these years I have no real clue why this forum exists and how it serves MacNN's larger purpose. I also don't know whether mods are brought in to look out for MacNN's best interests as a business, or whether they are here to enforce the rules that were assembled presumably to fulfill some unknown larger purpose.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 06:15 PM
 
peeb: would you kick me out of your house? I've had my shots!
     
peeb
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May 27, 2008, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
peeb: would you kick me out of your house? I've had my shots!
Certainly not until the very early hours of the morning.
     
 
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