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Moderator · 02:51 PM

This is creepy. Washington Times columnist John Lofton from the right vs Frank Zappa from the left. Zappa calls it dead on. They all laugh..little do they know. Zappa is arguing against censorship..Lofton is for it on "values" grounds. Lofton is exactly what I find repulsive about the right wing of this country.

Zappa: The biggest threat to America today is not communism; it's moving America towards a fascist theocracy and everything that has happened during the Reagan administration is steering us right down that pipe

Zappa: When you have a government that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion and that moral code turns into legislation to suit one certain religious point of view and if that code happens to be very, very right wing almost toward Attila the Hun.

Lofton: Well then you are an anarchist. Every form of civil government is based on some kind of morality, Frank.

Zappa: Morality in terms of behavior-not in terms of theology

Its long but worth watching:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/zap...sfire_1986.mov

smacintush · 04:11 PM

[edit: I'm ducking out of this one]

QuadG5Man · Mar 1, 2006, 03:28 PM

Thanks, amazing how relevant this clip is today, 20 years later. Was 'free speech' said in this whole video??

Zappa for President!

Moderator · Mar 1, 2006, 03:30 PM

He called what? We are not "moving towards" a fascist theocracy. If you think so perhaps you need to go back to school and git sum book learnin' about what exactly a fascist theocracy is and of the REAL foundation of this country

Just watch it. Thats a small part of it. The whole thing is a right left debate on censorship and government that illustrates todays red/blue divide perfectly. And I'd have to disagree with you...if the right has its way, and there is no reason why it shouldn't since it controls everything, then we will live in a fascist theocracy.

We are certainly far closer than we were in 1986. Zappa is a prophet.

smacintush · 04:32 PM

[Edit: I'm ducking out of this one]

Moderator · Mar 1, 2006, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

If you really think that then I feel sorry for you. Have a nice day.

If you really feel sorry for me I feel sorry for you.

Seriously don't feel sorry for me.....If it comes to it...I'll be living peacefully and pleasantly in Europe before the sh!t really hits the fan.

OldManMac · Mar 1, 2006, 04:23 PM

Then you'd better feel sorry for me too. There is nothing that would please the far right "Christians" more than to have a theocratic government that would dictate what to believe and show our citizens the "true way to salvation." Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.

Atomic Rooster · Mar 1, 2006, 05:37 PM

I've heard other interviews with Frank. He was a very smart man. Too bad he's gone, we could use him now.

And yes he was eerily bang on about a fascist theocracy.

QuadG5Man · Mar 1, 2006, 06:29 PM

I didn't realize he's passed - I need to get out more

Only album I have of his is 'Hot Rats' which is awesome.

strictlyplaid · Mar 1, 2006, 06:57 PM

I have to say, calling the U.S. a fascist theocracy is an insult to fascist theocracies everywhere. After all, they've worked HARD revoking the liberties of their citizens and repressing their thoughts!

I don't really like the direction we're headed in terms of civil liberties, but the fact is (1) you can still go to the church of your choice or no church at all without financial or legal repercussions (2) the vast majority of speech is free and unregulated (3) the privacy of the vast majority of citizens is still respected. Of those three things, I think (3) will change before (2) or (1). Thanks, Patriot Act.

Kevin · Mar 1, 2006, 07:23 PM

Was it facism when Tipper Gore was trying to ban certain records from being sold?

What did Frank have to say about that?

Jim Paradise · Mar 1, 2006, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Was it facism when Tipper Gore was trying to ban certain records from being sold?

What did Frank have to say about that?

Probably asked her if she wanted a private performance of Bobby Brown.

Atomic Rooster · Mar 1, 2006, 09:04 PM

Frank died December 4, 1993.

Hmmm, didn't anyone else hear him say he was a conservative?

Man that other guy who was also a righty was weird, I mean really, really weird. He had his hair flattened down with bacon grease!

Gee-Man · Mar 2, 2006, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Was it facism when Tipper Gore was trying to ban certain records from being sold?

What did Frank have to say about that?

Quite a lot, actually. Frank Zappa was one of, if not the, most outspoken critics of Tipper Gore's PMRC, he most certainly did think it was a form of fascism.

I dunno, if you were looking for some kind of "hypocritical liberals" point to make here, you're barking up the wrong tree. Zappa wasn't afraid to criticize anyone, regardless of their political affiliation.

I don't know of a single liberal who is/was willing to give Tipper Gore a pass on that whole PMRC banning records thing, most of us thought she was wildly overreacting to what is not the government's problem to solve.

Most liberals are extremely uncomfortable with banning or controlling any kind of art, no matter what the content. It's authoritarian conservatives who are always trying to ban sex-related art, while authoritarian liberals (a somewhat rare species) are always trying to ban violence. The music thing was about sex, not violence.

Kevin · Mar 2, 2006, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Gee-Man

Quite a lot, actually. Frank Zappa was one of, if not the, most outspoken critics of Tipper Gore's PMRC, he most certainly did think it was a form of fascism.

Well then good for Frank. He wasn't being a hypocrite. He just gained a bit more respect on my side.

I don't know of a single liberal who is/was willing to give Tipper Gore a pass on that whole PMRC banning records thing, most of us thought she was wildly overreacting to what is not the government's problem to solve.

The funny thing is Gee-Man, I've talked to liberals today that think it was ALL the doing of the Right. That the left had nothing to do with it.

Most liberals are extremely uncomfortable with banning or controlling any kind of art, no matter what the content. It's authoritarian conservatives who are always trying to ban sex-related art, while authoritarian liberals (a somewhat rare species) are always trying to ban violence. The music thing was about sex, not violence.

Actually it was about both.

Gee-Man · Mar 2, 2006, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

The funny thing is Gee-Man, I've talked to liberals today that think it was ALL the doing of the Right. That the left had nothing to do with it.

I don't know any liberals who think that. I suspect I travel in far more liberal circles than you do, so my anecdotal evidence trumps yours.

We think it was all Tipper Gore's doing, with social conservatives on the Right fully agreeing with her and jumping on her bandwagon. "The Left" didn't agree with Tipper Gore at all - her point of view on this issue doesn't represent a liberal position.

I'm sorry, saying "the left" had something to do with Tipper Gore's crusade because she was married to a Democrat is like arguing that "the left" fully agrees with the Iraq war because Joe Lieberman strongly supports it. Some Democrats can be very conservative on specific issues, and no longer represent "liberalism" as a whole when they do so. The same thing happens on the right when Bush takes theoretically "liberal" positions on certain issues, such as immigration policy. When he does so, he no longer represents "the right" on that particular issue.

Kevin · Mar 2, 2006, 07:56 PM

Puhlease, the left didn't attack her like they would had she been a righty. And yes, she had Democrat supporters.

This is another Tipper Gem.

In 2000, Tipper Gore began to make public appearances as a "mental health" advocate. She has been criticised by human rights organizations for her ambiguous stance towards involuntary psychiatric treatment, including forced drugging and commitment of people labelled mentally ill.

Weyland-Yutani · Mar 2, 2006, 09:15 PM

Man Zappa was cool. Reminds me of some of my friends today. And myself

cheers

W-Y

strictlyplaid · Mar 2, 2006, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Puhlease, the left didn't attack her like they would had she been a righty. And yes, she had Democrat supporters.

Eh, there is no "the left." That's forcing a two-dimensional issue space onto a one-dimensional line. There's no "the right" either. What do Milton Friedman and Pat Robertson have in common?

Like Joe Lieberman, Tipper is fiscally liberal and socially moderate/conservative.

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Mar 3, 2006, 04:50 AM

Always remember- whenever the left is caught blatantly acting like hypocritical (or in this case paranoid and hypocritical) jackasses, the line is: "There is no left! Left? Huh? What is this left of which you speak?!"

Too funny!

Kevin · Mar 3, 2006, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Always remember- whenever the left is caught blatantly acting like hypocritical (or in this case paranoid and hypocritical) jackasses, the line is: "There is no left! Left? Huh? What is this left of which you speak?!"

Too funny!

Yeah that is what I was thinking as well when I read it.

strictlyplaid · Mar 3, 2006, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Always remember- whenever the left is caught blatantly acting like hypocritical (or in this case paranoid and hypocritical) jackasses, the line is: "There is no left! Left? Huh? What is this left of which you speak?!"

Too funny!

Do you set your computer monitor to "black and white" as well?

strictlyplaid · 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yeah that is what I was thinking as well when I read it.

I'd really love to respond, but anyone who attempts to interpret your pithy one-liners is accused of projecting their own knee-jerks and not reading your pearls of wisdom thoroughly enough.

Kevin · Mar 3, 2006, 07:13 PM

strictly he just called it how it was. It simply goes on like that in here. Like it or not.

strictlyplaid · Mar 3, 2006, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

strictly he just called it how it was. It simply goes on like that in here. Like it or not.

Good to see you expanding your stable of stock replies.

Gee-Man · Mar 3, 2006, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Puhlease, the left didn't attack her like they would had she been a righty. And yes, she had Democrat supporters.

This is another Tipper Gem.

I don't know why you're on this "all liberals are hypocrites" crusade, but there are no facts to support this whatsoever. The entire artistic community, including most, if not all, "Hollywood liberals", were up in arms over her efforts to restrict music. The left did NOT by any means leave her alone or go easy on her. If that were true, then she wouldn't have had any opponents at all, since by most accounts the right agreed with her. We wouldn't even remember this particular incident from 20 years ago if you were correct and the left went easy on her, since there would be no controversy to discuss.

Yes, of course there were a few Democrats who supported this. But that doesn't represent "the left". You ignored my comparison to Joe Lieberman - so would you say that because there are Democratic supporters of the Iraq war, that "the left" in general strongly supports the war?

Kevin · Mar 4, 2006, 12:46 AM

I never said ALL liberals were hypocrites.

Actually Spliff was pointing out how some people try to disassociate themselves from the left when they get caught being hypocrites.

glideslope · Mar 7, 2006, 09:35 PM

Man, I miss Frank.

QuadG5Man · Mar 7, 2006, 10:38 PM

Here's another link for the Zappa debate, that first one wasn't working:

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2658805?htv=12

lpkmckenna · Mar 12, 2006, 02:40 AM

Wow, it's amazing how low-brow Crossfire really was. I mean the personal attacks were unbelievable. You're an idiot! Kiss my ass! Take your teeth out first! It was like CNN meets Jerry Springer.

There was also a great deal of question-ducking by both men, and answering questions with questions.

When the ultraconservative nutbar asked his question about "Hitler's words," Zappa completely ignored it and went in a different direction. I would have answered that it wasn't what Hitler said that killed people, but what he did.

But Zappa was great when he answered the question over "what was in the mind of the Founding Fathers." He said it didn't matter, that the letter of the law is what's important, not mind-reading the writer's of the law.

When he defended the millions of dollars he made making music, he sounded very "Hank Rearden." (from Atlas Shrugged) He didn't back down, and it was great.

However, the "going down into fascist theocracy" stuff was over the top. The pundulum of censorship has swing back and forth many times in the US, but every decade has been a little freer than the last, at least in terms of personal expression. The Reagon administration didn't really have very much impact on freedom of the arts.

lpkmckenna · Mar 12, 2006, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

Hmmm, didn't anyone else hear him say he was a conservative?

"Libertarian conservatives" are a significant majority of conservatives, believe it or not. That's why the "Christian Right" will always be a fringe movement. They can't get past the LibCons to achieve any real results.

Kevin · Mar 12, 2006, 06:36 AM

lpk lots of Christians are Libertarian Conservatives. They believe in free will.

So no.

lpkmckenna · Mar 12, 2006, 02:29 PM

Your post makes no sense, Kevin.

When I speak of "Libertarian Conservatives" I talking about conservatives who are both pro-capitalist and pro-personal freedom, the opposite of which of the Christian Right, who are anti-personal freedom.

I have no doubt that many Christians are LibCons. But Christian != Christian Right.

So yes, the Christian Right will always be a fringe movement.

Kevin · Mar 12, 2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Your post makes no sense, Kevin.

When I speak of "Libertarian Conservatives" I talking about conservatives who are both pro-capitalist and pro-personal freedom, the opposite of which of the Christian Right, who are anti-personal freedom.

No more so than the left. Which has banned books, attempt to ban free speech etc.

So yes, the Christian Right will always be a fringe movement.

As the liberal left will always be.

I am not sure what point you are attempting to make...

rparke1 · Mar 12, 2006, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

I am not sure what point you are attempting to make...

perhaps that he has an attention span of a ferret? and that he cant reply without any logical sense?

lpkmckenna · Mar 12, 2006, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

No more so than the left. Which has banned books, attempt to ban free speech etc.

I don't deny there are many authoritarian leftists.

Kevin · Mar 12, 2006, 03:05 PM

Don't think Tipper was an authoritarian leftist.

lpkmckenna · Mar 12, 2006, 03:13 PM

perhaps not in all ways, but in her desire to control the music industry she was.

Kevin · Mar 12, 2006, 03:15 PM

BTW, I like the new sig! You should make the background transparent and turn it into a png.

lpkmckenna · Mar 12, 2006, 05:19 PM

Done.