[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Because any console of that generation could run GT4 at 1080i. They all had the power to do it easily. Nintendo disabled it because for a large majority of games it simply wasn't an option. The same was true on the PS2, for most games it simply wasn't an option. SWG pretends because the PS2 could output at 1080i that makes it more powerful than the other systems, when that isn't true at all.

I disagree. Reason being its up to the developer to decide what they want their game to run at, not Sony. How do you know Sony 'disabled it'? It's an option THEY (developers) chose not to do, based on how THEIR game works. Sure not all games can't run 1080i depending on what is going on... thats THEIR call not Sony. How would Sony know how someones else game is going to run? So I can't go with it being 'tacked on', its an option based on what developers think will run well and be acceptable. GT4 was designed to run at 1080i. If other developers want to do that thats up to them to do so. The point being the system can and offers that option.

And again, the PS2 is a different monster than the PS3. With the PS2, developers over time could tweak their games with the emotion engine. I'd be really surprised if developers didn't know how to optimize their games for the GeForce 7800 by now. This isn't exactly mystical Sony hardware we're talking about. And no programming trick is suddenly going to make the PS3 have more video memory available. It's not a mater of having a dev kit. It's a mater of simply parts not being put onto the PS3. If the parts aren't there, we know what technically the console potentially can and can't do. And we know by the PS3's lack of memory it's not going to be able to run games like Gears of War without the texture quality taking a hit. It simply does not have the memory.

We don't know this, though? Have you programmed for it? I know I haven't, so how would either of us know? I'm inclined to say EA has MUCH more knowledge than either of our best guesses.

BTW I could care less about the video memory. I'm talking about the system as a whole unit. Developers always find new and better ways of doing things all the time. Obviously with EA making that statement ,(using 20% of the system), they feel there is much more they can do in time. Again, we have no idea what the developers can or can't do at this point. Its all talk, because we are on the first generation of games.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

I disagree. Reason being its up to the developer to decide what they want their game to run at, not Sony. How do you know Sony 'disabled it'? It's an option THEY (developers) chose not to do, based on how THEIR game works. Sure not all games can't run 1080i depending on what is going on... thats THEIR call not Sony. How would Sony know how someones else game is going to run? So I can't go with it being 'tacked on', its an option based on what developers think will run well and be acceptable. GT4 was designed to run at 1080i. If other developers want to do that thats up to them to do so. The point being the system can and offers that option.

I'm assuming you're asking how I know Nintendo disabled it. Because the class of GPU they were using is perfectly capable of outputing at 1080i. It was probably a political decision. Nintendo wanted devs to concentrate on making games look great at SD, and not worry about reducing graphics quality to make it run well at HD. GT is a racing game. Most objects in it are actually flat. It doesn't take much power to push out flat objects at 1080i. Nintendo just wasn't in favor of developers cutting corners like that. Disagree with that mentality? Fine. But that doesn't mean the PS2 is more powerful than the Gamecube.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

We don't know this, though? Have you programmed for it? I know I haven't, so how would either of us know? I'm inclined to say EA has MUCH more knowledge than either of our best guesses.

BTW I could care less about the video memory. I'm talking about the system as a whole unit. Developers always find new and better ways of doing things all the time. Obviously with EA making that statement ,(using 20% of the system), they feel there is much more they can do in time. Again, we have no idea what the developers can or can't do at this point. Its all talk, because we are on the first generation of games.

Again, assuming EA is right it doesn't matter how much of the Cell is untapped. The PS3's GPU will be the determining factor in graphical quality, and it doesn't have the VRAM to push lots of 1080p HD textures.

Here is an article that, surprise surprise, agrees with me on everything I've said so far. It's a technical dissection of the PS3. Highlights? Not enough VRAM to properly use Bluray's capacity. Can swap from RAM to VRAM but costly. Cell not really as powerful as Sony would like us to think.

GotFrag DPAD - DPAD Home News Story - End all arguments: PS3 vs 360

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It's not a mater of having a dev kit. It's a mater of simply parts not being put onto the PS3. If the parts aren't there, we know what technically the console potentially can and can't do.

Just like you "knew" the GMA 950 can't do CoreImage.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Just like you "knew" the GMA 950 can't do CoreImage.

Actually I said it does CoreImage quite well. It was CoreAnimation I was worried about, and I'd be glad to talk about that after 10.5 is out and I'm not under NDA.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I'm assuming you're asking how I know Nintendo disabled it. Because the class of GPU they were using is perfectly capable of outputing at 1080i. It was probably a political decision. Nintendo wanted devs to concentrate on making games look great at SD, and not worry about reducing graphics quality to make it run well at HD. GT is a racing game. Most objects in it are actually flat. It doesn't take much power to push out flat objects at 1080i. Nintendo just wasn't in favor of developers cutting corners like that. Disagree with that mentality? Fine. But that doesn't mean the PS2 is more powerful than the Gamecube.

My point is that the developer is the one to make the call on what to do with THEIR game for the PS2 (so its not tacked on, as you say). Most powerful is a subjective argument based on the content, anyhow. You will never have a scenario to prove that unless they are both going to run at the same resolution in the first place.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, assuming EA is right it doesn't matter how much of the Cell is untapped. The PS3's GPU will be the determining factor in graphical quality, and it doesn't have the VRAM to push lots of 1080p HD textures.

Here is an article that, surprise surprise, agrees with me on everything I've said so far. It's a technical dissection of the PS3. Highlights? Not enough VRAM to properly use Bluray's capacity. Can swap from RAM to VRAM but costly. Cell not really as powerful as Sony would like us to think.

GotFrag DPAD - DPAD Home News Story - End all arguments: PS3 vs 360

Again, we have opinions from people who don't program for the system. SHOW me the results, and I'll make a judgement. Like I keep saying, when we get out of the first generation and get companies with some experience then we will see. Its easy to play armchair programmer looking at specs. History has shown this over and over, from computers, to consoles far too long. The one that is always in flux is this thing we all know called SPEC, as an example.

[Dark Helmet]

GoMac I think you need to leave those of us who actually own or intend to own these system alone . You just run off and play with your Wii.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

My point is that the developer is the one to make the call on what to do with THEIR game for the PS2 (so its not tacked on, as you say). Most powerful is a subjective argument based on the content, anyhow. You will never have a scenario to prove that unless they are both going to run at the same resolution in the first place.

You can compare the consoles all running at the same resolution. They all ran at SD, and at SD, the PS2 usually did not produce the best graphics. If running at 1080i is important to you, fine. That's still not an argument for the PS2 being the most powerful console with the fastest components.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Again, we have opinions from people who don't program for the system. SHOW me the results, and I'll make a judgement. Like I keep saying, when we get out of the first generation and get companies with some experience then we will see. Its easy to play armchair programmer looking at specs. History has shown this over and over, from computers, to consoles far too long. The one that is always in flux is this thing we all know called SPEC, as an example.

What exactly is your technical background for disputing what both I and the other author are saying about the PS3? It's very simple math. The textures are : this big :. The PS3 has : this much room : for textures. It doesn't require a dev kit to figure out what is going to happen there.

The workings of the Cell are widely known. The PS3 uses basically a GeForce 7800, the workings of which are also known. There is not much to leave to the imagination about how the PS3 works on a technical level. The PS3 is basically a Cell based PC in a box.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

GoMac I think you need to leave those of us who actually own or intend to own these system alone . You just run off and play with your Wii.

I'm buying an XBox 360 next year when I buy my new TV. I don't see a problem with me talking about the PS3 vs. XBox 360. If you have anything constructive to contribute to the conversation you are welcome to.

[exca1ibur]

CLARIFICATION: I am NOT nor have EVER in this 'debate' talking about graphics. I don't care about the graphics when talking about the Cell.

Now that that is out the way...

My point is talking about what else can be improved in gaming with the Cell, if only 20% is being tapped. Hell, if 50% has been tapped. That still makes for a LOT of improvement on game play, Just based on the SAME graphics that are being displayed. (AI, physics, etc) was my example. I'll end this with my same 'echo'. I'll wait an SEE what can be done over the life of the system since you believe that this is as good as the system is ever going to be.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

CLARIFICATION: I am NOT nor have EVER in this 'debate' talking about graphics. I don't care about the graphics when talking about the Cell.

Now that that is out the way...

My point is talking about what else can be improved in gaming with the Cell, if only 20% is being tapped. Hell, if 50% has been tapped. That still makes for a LOT of improvement on game play, Just based on the SAME graphics that are being displayed. (AI, physics, etc) was my example. I'll end this with my same 'echo'. I'll wait an SEE what can be done over the life of the system since you believe that this is as good as the system is ever going to be.

I wasn't debating that AI or physics could be improved. My point was that an 80% untapped Cell (if that is true) does not mean better graphics. Graphics are limited by the GPU and the VRAM.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by starman 

To those that magically found $150 DVD players in 1999, please post the model numbers.

The PS2 cost $299 in 10/2000 IIRC. I bought a standalone Sony DVD player for around $150 in 6/2000. I don't know anyone who bought a PS2 to play DVDs, to this day I think it's one of those myths the gaming press is happy to perpetuate.

[starman]

Model?

[itai195]

Sorry I don't remember the model of DVD player I bought over 6 years ago. It broke 3 years ago and was scrapped.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by itai195 

The PS2 cost $299 in 10/2000 IIRC. I bought a standalone Sony DVD player for around $150 in 6/2000. I don't know anyone who bought a PS2 to play DVDs, to this day I think it's one of those myths the gaming press is happy to perpetuate.

The PS2 was my first DVD player. It did that job for roughly 2 years before I bought a stand alone.

[icruise]

All of this debate about the cell is pretty meaningless. It's clear to me from actually playing PS3 games that the system is at least as powerful as the Xbox 360, and isn't that what's important? This means that who wins this round will largely boil down to who gets the best exclusive titles, just as it did in the last generation. Of course, things like online service and blu-ray support (and the price differential it brings) will affect some people's decisions one way or the other.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

I got the first and only Toshiba progressive scan DVD player in 1999. It cost $1000.

Wasn't that $1000 in CAD? CAD$1000 was in the range of US$700 or less IIRC. But yeah, progressive scan players were expensive. I bought a Panasonic progressive scan player in 2001 for something like CAD$700 (which was something like US$450-490 at the time I think).

My $299 RCA from 1998 was 480i. It came out in 1997 actually, but at a higher price. The prices didn't drop until nearly a year later... which was still over 2 years before the PS2 came out.

P.S. It still works fine. My brother-in-law uses it.

P.P.S. I went into an electronics and photo shop in Chinatown the other day to get some passport pictures. They had my Panasonic player for sale... at CAD$700. I couldn't believe it. WTF are they thinking? I mean you can walk down the street and get a progressive scan player for less than 50 bucks these days.

Originally Posted by starman 

To those that magically found $150 DVD players in 1999, please post the model numbers.

Heh. Sez the person who claims that the cheapest DVD players were $500 in late 2000.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by icruise 

All of this debate about the cell is pretty meaningless. It's clear to me from actually playing PS3 games that the system is at least as powerful as the Xbox 360, and isn't that what's important? This means that who wins this round will largely boil down to who gets the best exclusive titles, just as it did in the last generation. Of course, things like online service and blu-ray support (and the price differential it brings) will affect some people's decisions one way or the other.

Which is exactly what I was saying. I have no problems with either the XB360 OR the PS3 I think both are great systems and you can't go wrong either way. Just a matter if it has the games that YOU wish to play and the price point being the deciding factors.

[Eug]

So I was just checking the numbers...

By the time the PS2 was released in North America, 10 million DVD players had already been sold in US and Canada, and many, many more worldwide.

[starman]

All I remember was that the PS2 was supposed to be the cheapest DVD player.

[ort888]

I don't think it was the cheapest DVd player, it was just a good way to get a DVD player and console in one.

I knew lots of people who wanted PS2s in order to get an affordable DVD player.

[Miniryu]

From a bussiness standpoint, Sony seems to be getting its ass handed to them at the moment. Most of the money made from these sytems will be from the games, right? Since Nintendo is shipping 4 times as many units as Sony is, and all units are selling out immediately, Nintendo is set to sell 4 times as many games (probably even more than that, considering that the people who purchase a Wii have hundreds of dollars more in cash because of its cheaper price). Factor in the fact that Nintendo is actually making a profit from their machines while Sony and Microsoft are losing money on each unit sold, it looks like Nintendo is set to make on hell of a comeback.


More importantly, look at the PEOPLE who are playing/buying the systems. Wii is the first console I have owned since I got my Sega Saturn (which I adored). My uncles, cousins and parents all want to get Wiis because everyone in the family plays the games at family dinners and gatherings. My PARENTS!! They normally don't even play videogames. With all of these units that will be sold, A) we can expect developers to start taking advantage of the Wiimote, making quality exclisive games. and B) The top existing developers will want to produce games for the system that will reach the greatest number of users.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Miniryu 

From a bussiness standpoint, Sony seems to be getting its ass handed to them at the moment. Most of the money made from these sytems will be from the games, right? Since Nintendo is shipping 4 times as many units as Sony is, and all units are selling out immediately, Nintendo is set to sell 4 times as many games (probably even more than that, considering that the people who purchase a Wii have hundreds of dollars more in cash because of its cheaper price). Factor in the fact that Nintendo is actually making a profit from their machines while Sony and Microsoft are losing money on each unit sold, it looks like Nintendo is set to make on hell of a comeback.

 
Let's not get carried away. Nintendo is making Sony its bitch, but Microsoft is still the top dog now and probably will retain that spot even if its lead decays a little.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by starman 

All I remember was that the PS2 was supposed to be the cheapest DVD player.

Then as we've already demonstrated, you are not remembering correctly, at least for North America.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Let's not get carried away. Nintendo is making Sony its bitch, but Microsoft is still the top dog now and probably will retain that spot even if its lead decays a little.

It's bitch?

The PS2 is far-and-away the best selling system this holiday season, and its library is head-and-shoulders above any other console (FF12, Okami, Guitar Hero 2, Bully). We won't see the shakedown until 2007, when Sony has the PS3 in full production.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ink 

It's bitch?

This belongs in the apostrophe errors section of the spelling/grammatical mistakes thread. The apostrophe is not needed unless "it's" is a contraction for "it is."

"Its" already indicates possession.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

 
Let's not get carried away. Nintendo is making Sony its bitch, but Microsoft is still the top dog now and probably will retain that spot even if its lead decays a little.

Nintendo has #1 currently in next gen in Japan. Of course that's Japan. Microsoft could sell a solid gold XBox 360 for $50 and no one would buy it.

In the US Microsoft has things wrapped up right now. I don't see that changing for a while. Probably after Christmas they'll do a price drop, followed by a refresh at E3. That will keep them on top. I don't know yet if the Wii has enough momentum to take Microsoft. We'll find out after the holiday season when the mad buying rush is over.

But XBox Live and Halo is basically is keeping the XBox the dominant console in the U.S.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

This belongs in the apostrophe errors section of the spelling/grammatical mistakes thread. The apostrophe is not needed unless "it's" is a contraction for "it is."

"Its" already indicates possession.

English sucks. One never has problems with such absurd rules in Spanish.

An apostrophe denotes possession on all these nouns, except for "it". Also, the apostrophe follows the "s" on nouns that are plural or otherwise end in "s".

But, what does this have to do with video games...?

Is "...?" legal English grammar? I'm biting my nails in anticipation.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Nintendo has #1 currently in next gen in Japan. Of course that's Japan. Microsoft could sell a solid gold XBox 360 for $50 and no one would buy it.

In the US Microsoft has things wrapped up right now. I don't see that changing for a while. Probably after Christmas they'll do a price drop, followed by a refresh at E3. That will keep them on top. I don't know yet if the Wii has enough momentum to take Microsoft. We'll find out after the holiday season when the mad buying rush is over.

But XBox Live and Halo is basically is keeping the XBox the dominant console in the U.S.

Quite a turnaround from when you used to quote Japanese numbers as if they were gospel.

[goMac]

Has anyone seen this game yet?

http://masseffect.bioware.com/gallery/

The voice acting is slowly killing me, but aside from that it looks pretty good. Looks kinda like a cross between Halo and... something.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

Quite a turnaround from when you used to quote Japanese numbers as if they were gospel.

Not sure I'm following...

[starman]

You don't remember "Nintendo is PWNING in Japan! Look at these numbers"?

Even when we'd throw American numbers back, you'd ignore them. At least now you're accepting the fact that the 360 is doing well HERE.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ink 

English sucks. One never has problems with such absurd rules in Spanish.

An apostrophe denotes possession on all these nouns, except for "it". Also, the apostrophe follows the "s" on nouns that are plural or otherwise end in "s".

But, what does this have to do with video games...?

Is "...?" legal English grammar? I'm biting my nails in anticipation.

I just found 345 grammatical and spelling errors in your post which only contained 292 characters. That is amazing.

The other post was tongue-in-cheek. There are a billions of possible spelling/grammatical errors in the English language...I've only made about 65% of them in 23 years. I'm pursuing this goal with a lot more intensity than I'm trying to get 10,000 posts or a huge XBox Gamerscore. That being said...

I dunt' relly crae.

As for video games...I'm glad I migrated back to the 360. I'm actually getting heavily into Call of Duty 2, which is a better game than I originally thought.

Was I the only disillusioned Wii owner that defended the system for a long time?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

You don't remember "Nintendo is PWNING in Japan! Look at these numbers"?

Even when we'd throw American numbers back, you'd ignore them. At least now you're accepting the fact that the 360 is doing well HERE.

I've always said the 360 is doing well here. I've even been predicting the 360 will be #1 here in the U.S. I didn't think the Wii would have this much momentum, I at least thought the Wii would be competitive with the PS3, so I guess it's possible that the Wii in the end could be #1, but I've always said the XB360 will take #1.

So again, I'm not following. If you go back in the thread I've said multiple times I think the XB360 will sell more units than anyone else in the US.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

As for video games...I'm glad I migrated back to the 360. I'm actually getting heavily into Call of Duty 2, which is a better game than I originally thought.

Was I the only disillusioned Wii owner that defended the system for a long time?

I'm still not sold on any of the next generation systems. I think the 360 looks the most interesting right now, but it still doesn't have a killer title that makes me want to buy one. We'll see how Mario and Metroid go... and if the 360 can score some more interesting titles. As for now, the PS2 is still my favorite by far.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

As for video games...I'm glad I migrated back to the 360. I'm actually getting heavily into Call of Duty 2, which is a better game than I originally thought.

Was I the only disillusioned Wii owner that defended the system for a long time?

I think as part of buying a system at launch, you have to accept that there is going to be a lack of games. Most games at launch are going to be rushed out. So the Wii isn't getting a lot of attention here, mostly because I've beaten Zelda, although I have been going back and playing Mario 64. Next year I'll be getting Metroid, Mario Party, etc, but for now I'm just waiting. (Did anyone see the rumor that Nintendo has already been working on a second Zelda game for the Wii for the last year?)

If you want good games now, XBox 360 is the best bet. I'm willing to wait on the good games for the Wii (Not that Zelda or Raving Rabbids are bad games... but the overall selection isn't that great yet).

[itai195]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Has anyone seen this game yet?

http://masseffect.bioware.com/gallery/

Yup looks good. BioWare was reason enough to own an Xbox for me, looks like more of the same on the 360

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Did anyone see the rumor that Nintendo has already been working on a second Zelda game for the Wii for the last year?

I didn't, but I kind of figured they were considering how little Twilight Princess has changed since I saw it demoed almost two years ago. (Seriously, I even asked if the enemies were going to do so little damage and the guy answered, "We're still fine-tuning it." Lo and behold, no change at all.)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I didn't, but I kind of figured they were considering how little Twilight Princess has changed since I saw it demoed almost two years ago. (Seriously, I even asked if the enemies were going to do so little damage and the guy answered, "We're still fine-tuning it." Lo and behold, no change at all.)

Yeah, I didn't think the enemies were too challenging. In some places, they just seemed like their job was to slow you down but not kill you.

On the other hand, it meant the game would throw a lot more enemies at you at once, which is kinda cool. I loved spin attacking my way through large groups.

[goMac]

In since high-def tv seems to be intertwined with the console war, I thought I'd post this:

The Hat Trick That Didn’t Happen - New York Times

Apparently demand for HDTV's is not as strong as originally thought. This would mean that the adoption rate for HD-TV will probably be slower than thought.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by goMac 

On the other hand, it meant the game would throw a lot more enemies at you at once, which is kinda cool. I loved spin attacking my way through large groups.

Yeah, I just got through the desert prison with the big waves of skeletons and…screaming skeletons. It was fun doing the giant circle o' doom on 20 undead buggers and watching Link charge all over the room.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Has anyone seen this game yet?

http://masseffect.bioware.com/gallery/

The voice acting is slowly killing me

No matter how bad it always beats mashing the A button while watching people fight with no sounds coming out of their lips i.e Zelda.

Other than that the game's art direction and setting are bad ass.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yeah, I just got through the desert prison with the big waves of skeletons and…screaming skeletons. It was fun doing the giant circle o' doom on 20 undead buggers and watching Link charge all over the room.

That was one thing that really impressed me about TP. The sword fighting was simply awesome. Link would just bounce around the room killing things, and the finishing move was nice. Even the wolf combat was awesome.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ink 

I'm still not sold on any of the next generation systems. I think the 360 looks the most interesting right now, but it still doesn't have a killer title that makes me want to buy one. We'll see how Mario and Metroid go... and if the 360 can score some more interesting titles. As for now, the PS2 is still my favorite by far.

...and is still flying off the shelves. Too many great games to be ignored, even with the latest generation making all of the headlines.

[EDIT] I have to wonder about what kind of "killer title" you're looking for that hasn't made its way to 360. Sure, most of its great games are shooters, but look at the list...

Gears of War
Rainbow Six: Vegas
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
F.E.A.R.
Splinter Cell Double Agent
Call of Duty 2/3
Viva Pinata (no, I haven't tried it yet)
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter

And yes, many of these are multi-platform, but they arguably look and play best on the 360. Not a bad first year, IMO. Could be better, but it has some great titles coming up too.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by goMac 

That was one thing that really impressed me about TP. The sword fighting was simply awesome. Link would just bounce around the room killing things, and the finishing move was nice. Even the wolf combat was awesome.

Of course sometimes when there are multiple enemies onscreen, the framerate dips noticeably, signalling that the Wii's power has been tapped out

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by itai195 

Of course sometimes when there are multiple enemies onscreen, the framerate dips noticeably, signalling that the Wii's power has been tapped out

Really? I've never noticed that.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by itai195 

Of course sometimes when there are multiple enemies onscreen, the framerate dips noticeably, signalling that the Wii's power has been tapped out

I didn't notice either.

[Dark Helmet]

I have my doubts but...

PS3 Manufacturing Issues Fixed - Kotaku

[Jawbone54]

Seeing is believing. I wouldn't doubt it entirely, but it still sounds wildly optimistic.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

I have my doubts but...

PS3 Manufacturing Issues Fixed - Kotaku

It no longer includes a Blu-Ray drive and obscure Power CPU?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It no longer includes a Blu-Ray drive and obscure Power CPU?

Actually that's already been released. It's called the XBox 360.