[Snow-i]

Received a criminal citation over this past weekend from city police.

Long story short there was a fight outside the bar, and the police cleared the area. One of my friends was using the restroom as we were leaving so we walked down the sidewalk a bit and waited. Police came through and told us to keep moving so we moved a little further down the street. One officer in particular then comes up to me with handcuffs out and pushes them against my chest and said "I said MOVE." I said we were waiting for a friend and he said "no you're not." I pulled out my phone and began taking video as he was becoming more aggressive at which point he arrested me and cited me with "Failure to obey a lawful and reasonable order of a law enforcement officer for blocking free passage on the sidewalk made to prevent disturbance of the peace" Another of my friends asked him why I was being arrested and she was arrested too for the same thing. I had two beers two hours before and wasn't drunk, for the record.

Question is, I'm shopping for an attorney as 1) I was not blocking the sidewalk as people were freely passing 2) Others in my city have been arrested for the same thing and successfully filed lawsuits on the grounds simply being present doesn't constitute blocking free passage and arresting someone for that is a violation of their 1st amendment rights and 3) The officer gave no such order to not block the sidewalk. Simply said "Move" which we did, and he followed us.

Just need help with the first step - finding the right attorney. Any advice on what to look for and stay away from?

What should I look for in an attorney and how should I proceed? If its best to plead guilty and pay the fine I will. I'm considering a lawsuit against the city on 1st amendment grounds (public sidewalk), assault (pushing me with the handcuffs), and excessive force. The police were driving a car on the sidewalk to clear people out, which incidentally drove past me before I was arrested.

Thoughts are appreciated.

By the way, several officers were nice and reasonable, I don't want this turning into a PWL thread on police abuse. I generally support the police and their service to our neighborhood.

[Sealobo]

can you post a photo of yourself?

i don't know, it might make or break the case.

[Waragainstsleep]

I can't imagine pleading guilty is going to help much with a lawsuit.

[Snow-i]

Obviously if I'm pleading guilty I would not pursue the lawsuit. I only want to go down that path if I'm sure I have a case. Otherwise its cut my losses and move on.

I'm white btw, the officer was black and 3x my size, if thats what you're asking.

[andi*pandi]

Well there goes my "were you wearing a hoodie" question.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I can't imagine pleading guilty is going to help much with a lawsuit.

Paying the fine can be a lot cheaper than paying an attorney.

[chabig]

I am curious, Snow, why you thought you shouldn't comply with the Officer's commands? The easiest thing for you to do would have been to walk away as instructed, instead of standing your ground and beginning to record video. You could have instead used to phone to hook up with your friend in the restroom.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by chabig 

I am curious, Snow, why you thought you shouldn't comply with the Officer's commands? The easiest thing for you to do would have been to walk away as instructed, instead of standing your ground and beginning to record video. You could have instead used to phone to hook up with your friend in the restroom.

My friend in the restroom did not have her phone, and I wasn't about to leave her on her own with so many drunkards around. I was completely open to listening to their directions until the one officer pushed me. I wasn't trying to make any sort of statement of my right to be there - i wanted to leave, but had to wait up for all members of my group which is completely within my rights.

[chabig]

Thanks Snow. Of course there are two sides to every story. Your first post didn't explain your side as well.

[ghporter]

While I think it was a mistake to obviously start recording while you were being pushed, I agree that you were right to wait for your friend. Sounds like a complaint to both the police department and the local stir things up investigative TV news show are in order. Breaking up a drunken fight = good. Treating everyone on the block as if they're potential drunk fighters = stupid.

[Tiresias]

As someone who is not exactly a stranger to legal problems, I have to tell you that I think pulling out the camera was stupid.

You should have asked the cop if you could wait for your lady friend or if perhaps he himself could go and get her.

If he said no, he would be, of course, an a-hole. But the only sensible thing to do is walk away.

Everyone over 23 knows that almost every argument begun with a cop ends with you face down on the sidewalk in cuffs.

There are many ways of fighting the Man. Trying to put grumpy cops on YouTube for asking you to move along is one of the less effective and less intelligent ways.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

While I think it was a mistake to obviously start recording while you were being pushed, I agree that you were right to wait for your friend. Sounds like a complaint to both the police department and the local stir things up investigative TV news show are in order. Breaking up a drunken fight = good. Treating everyone on the block as if they're potential drunk fighters = stupid.

Why is it a mistake to start recording?

[turtle777]

Well duh, because it pisses of the cop.

-t

[Athens]

Sounds like those Cops have to much power....

Found this opinion on the subject

http://joanofmark.blogspot.com/2011/...-to-video.html

Better Article
http://www.pcworld.com/article/24025...on_camera.html

Apparently taking video is protected like photos. But the Audio part of a video recording can be a problem in 12 states according to that article. But in almost all cases the police have lost those cases. Half the time I deal with the police I wipe out my phone and tell the officer im recording this encounter. I've never had any of them refuse. I had one female cop say just dont point it at me directly because my hair is a mess lol

[ghporter]

Photography is not the problem. Aggravating an already pushy cop is the problem. Whipping out the old iPhone is equivalent to a verbal challenge, like "Oh yeah? Who are you pushing around?" Bad idea. Whether you are "right" or not, escalating the situation is a very bad move.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Photography is not the problem. Aggravating an already pushy cop is the problem. Whipping out the old iPhone is equivalent to a verbal challenge, like "Oh yeah? Who are you pushing around?" Bad idea. Whether you are "right" or not, escalating the situation is a very bad move.

Letting the police get away with ever increasing bullying and violence against innocent citizens is not the answer either. Violence in our society, and around the world, is declining annually, yet our police are increasingly arming themselves with equipment once reserved for elite military units, and using that equipment against unarmed civilians.

[Athens]

I have to agree with OldManMac. Intimidation seems to be a tactic US police use. I've had limited dealings with American police, twice with Seattle Police which I didn't mind much. Polite cops felt like the ones at home and Washington State Police which was just a terrifying experience.

The stuff I have seen on youtube and websites about US Cops is brutal but I have always assumed that was not the norm but just extreme examples of a-holes.

But video cameras is one of the few methods one can take to protect themselves from police. If it aggravates the cop they must have reasons to be aggravated in the first place about being taped. A few Canadian cops have been nailed with the use of Video for excessive force some even Assault and it has had a effect on police. They are more cautious because of the possibility of being taped.

In the case of Snow-I it would have been very beneficial for his defense from what I read of what happened.

[ghporter]

Being IN a confrontation is the wrong place for you to start recording. The bystanders around the situation, on the other hand, are in a perfect position to record the situation from a more objective viewpoint. I'd be surprised if several others hadn't recorded the whole thing (either out of public spiritedness or because they thought it was cool). Antagonizing an angry person who is armed is a bad idea. I do not suggest "letting them get away with it," but rather not putting oneself in a position to be injured while being verbally abused. Always try to get name and badge number, but never ever act like you're going to "take on" an officer that's behaving this way. Sure, you're "right," but the legal and possibly medical costs aren't worth the immediate urge to confront the officer.

[abby]

what's wrong with that certain police? you should avoid him for quite some time.

do you have a family lawyer?
there's no certain things you need to consider in finding a lawyer as long as he can help you well and do things right.

[el chupacabra]

You need to talk to an attorney or something on this one. If it was me I'd be pissed just that he wasted my time by arresting me and everything that goes with it.

Having said that I don't think you have much of a case other than getting your charges wiped out... You should have just followed his directions. He does have a right to tell people to vacate the area public sidewalk/street or not. They do this all the time. If you had been waiting for your child or something you might have a case, but from the courts point of view the police took control of the scene and your friend is an adult who can take care of herself. You guys could have just met her back at the car or wherever; she would have come out of the bathroom, seen what was going on, and been fine either way.

You say there have been similar successful cases like this in the past so I'll take your word for it, I guess it just depends how much people in your town hate the cops. I understand you might be infuriated at his belittling attitude but pushing handcuffs against your chest is not excessive force (do you have any cuts or bruises), it was a warning he was about to arrest you and you ignored it. I know its a fad lately to video cops, I try it too with hidden cameras, but you can't always just video tape your way into getting what you want.

[freudling]

I hate how police are so aggressive and pushy. Misuse of force, etc. However, what you did was stupid. Very stupid. What nobody has pointed out is that once you're engaged by a police officer... they have a right to pre-empt if you reach inside your pocket. How does the police officer know you're not reaching for a gun or other weapon? He doesn't, no matter how much of an asshole he is, he still has to deal with bigger assholes. Criminals. Pyschopaths. Rapists. Sadistic son of a bitches. Crap we don't have to deal with. Police get shot at and attacked frequently. Of course they're on guard. He has no idea who you are or what your intent is, not to mention dealing with the rest of the anxious people all over the place..

Let bystanders video. The next time a police officer engages you shut up and comply and get yourself out of the situation and then start filming, etc.

I was the head doorman at a pretty hot nightclub for 4 years putting myself through school. My job was tough: dealing with drunk, drugged up assholes. Fights. Guns. Knives. When a situation flares up, you have dozens of people surrounding it. These people make it so much harder to deal with a situation compared to just dealing with the actual people involved. The sad reality is, all the people we threw out... All those people that cabs won't take because they're full of blood and vomit... the cops are always the last ones to clean up the mess.

Police brutality and doorman brutality has to stop. But you also have to understand and be empathetic to how much stress and crap is involved in their world. What he did wasn't right, but it was a light tap. My advice is to go into the precinct and have a heart to heart with the officer, just apologize and tell him you appreciate his work. He will respect you and probably reciprocate. I'm 100% confident he will move to drop any charges and be a happier person knowing that people appreciate his shit job.

This will save you huge headaches and legal bills

PM me if you want.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by chabig 

I am curious, Snow, why you thought you shouldn't comply with the Officer's commands? The easiest thing for you to do would have been to walk away as instructed, instead of standing your ground and beginning to record video. You could have instead used to phone to hook up with your friend in the restroom.

Had the officer simply asked us to "wait over there" or acted in any reasonable manner befitting an officer I would have had no issue what-so-ever with complying. I tried to respectfully explain why we were there, that we would be leaving soon, and ask if there was somewhere we could wait the literal 3 minutes it would take us to collect our friend and move on. I was met with a shove. The camera coming out actually seemed to make him think twice about getting big and pushy with us, and may have saved me getting roughed around. As I was arrested i tossed my phone to my friend who held onto it. The other that was arrested with me had her video wiped on scene - which incidentally was caught on my phone and is a Brady violation. Spoke with an attorney and we have more than enough to get the charge dropped and file a complaint.

----

Leaving would have been the easiest thing to do but certainly not the right thing to do. Leaving a drunk girl to fend for herself without a phone or any way of contacting us is strictly not an option, especially with so many drunk dudes around and no way to tell her we were ditching her.

Not sure how many of you had have someone you've known raped, but it happened to my sister and I can tell you first hand how devastating it can be to a family. In my mind, leaving anyone I come with is strictly Not. An. Option.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

I understand you might be infuriated at his belittling attitude but pushing handcuffs against your chest is not excessive force (do you have any cuts or bruises), it was a warning he was about to arrest you and you ignored it. I know its a fad lately to video cops, I try it too with hidden cameras, but you can't always just video tape your way into getting what you want.

According to my attorney, Its actually assault. An officer of the law does not have the right to push you or get physical with you unless you are resisting arrest, which I was not. Its on video and should be more than enough for a complaint against him. Not much, but might keep him from going up the chain or God forbid, be evidence when he does more than push someone.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Photography is not the problem. Aggravating an already pushy cop is the problem. Whipping out the old iPhone is equivalent to a verbal challenge, like "Oh yeah? Who are you pushing around?" Bad idea. Whether you are "right" or not, escalating the situation is a very bad move.

Whats to keep him from more than simple assault if he does not fear repercussions? Taping it was the best thing I could have done, and though it probably led to my arrest and having to deal with this might have saved me from getting thrown on the ground, beaten, and charged with someone way more serious. Who's to argue with the cop if not for a video of the incident?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

While I think it was a mistake to obviously start recording while you were being pushed, I agree that you were right to wait for your friend. Sounds like a complaint to both the police department and the local stir things up investigative TV news show are in order. Breaking up a drunken fight = good. Treating everyone on the block as if they're potential drunk fighters = stupid.

After he pushed me we moved down the sidewalk about 100 feet, I was not directly engaged with the cop when I started recording. He followed us down the sidewalk, I guess upset that we were still waiting for our friend who incidentally showed up as I was being put in cuffs, 60 seconds or so after he approached the 2nd time

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Having said that I don't think you have much of a case other than getting your charges wiped out... You should have just followed his directions. He does have a right to tell people to vacate the area public sidewalk/street or not. They do this all the time. If you had been waiting for your child or something you might have a case, but from the courts point of view the police took control of the scene and your friend is an adult who can take care of herself. You guys could have just met her back at the car or wherever; she would have come out of the bathroom, seen what was going on, and been fine either way.

And the police absolutely do not have the right to remove you from an area without just cause (i.e. to prevent a riot or matter of public safety). I was not inciting a riot and I was not endangering public safety. I was waiting for someone. They charged me with "blocking the sidewalk" which I was not even on. The arresting cop didn't even write the citation, someone at the station did because he didn't know what to charge me with. The cop asked someone at the station what to slap me with - someone who wasn't even there.

Its unfortunate I can't prove that beyond my testimony, but I've got enough to get the charge dropped anyways.

[ghporter]

Being in the area doesn't mean that you "might be inciting or participating in a riot." It also means you could be a victim of the riot... That IS a valid reason to clear an area like what you described. The officer was not appropriate in his dealings with you, but there is also the point that "waiting for a friend" is easy to interpret as either "some guy I'm hanging out with" or "I just want an excuse to stay close to the action." If it had come across as "my sister's best friend is in the ladies' room and I'm worried about her safety," you may have gotten a different reaction. Or not. But whatever "might have been," your citation is probably going to be dropped anyway, especially if you bring up "habeus corpus" and the guy has to identify you, what you were doing, etc.

But get an attorney, because the way that officer and others behaved at that incident was not acceptable for people who are supposed to be ensuring "public safety."